Moby Dick - Chapters 17-40

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "Chapter 26, Knights and Squires

"It was merely the condensation of the man." (103)
(...)
"I will have no man in my boat," said Starbuck, "who is not afraid of a whale." (103)
(...)
"Wherefore he..."

Great quotes Mark! Starbuck may be one of the only shipmates with common sense, I fear!

[Dianne]

Brittany wrote: "Dianne wrote: " Are we to conclude that Queequeg is Muslim? Forgive my ignorance, but does Islam feature idolatry? "


- On Wikipedia it says that Queequeg practices a form of animism. Animism is t..."

This makes so much more sense, thank you Brittany! I wonder to what extent animism is practiced today? The Ramadan reference really threw me off. Does anyone else know why Ramadan may have been referenced in the text?

[Dianne]

Peg wrote: "Mark wrote: "Chapter 26, Knights and Squires

"I will have no man in my boat," said Starbuck, "who is not afraid of a whale." (103)

I was shocked when the description of the 2nd and 3rd mates inc..."

I agree with you Peg. I think it is clear to see that a lack of fear shows a certain naivete which is surprising in these key crew members, but I am sure Ahab had some say in their selection. I wonder why he chose Starbuck those if he was just looking for crew who agreed with his insane notions?

[Dianne]

Everyman wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Chapter 18 - His Mark ..."

We were discussing in the first thread why I assumed that Q was a cannibal. But I note in this chapter that on Captain Peleg makes the same assumption the..."

I think that there was likely a division among 'white' and 'native' crew members on whaling ships and that many people probably did have stereotypes for the native population, based upon their appearance in part but also specific details like whether they peddled shrunken heads, etc. Still, considering the contrast Melville does a brilliant job of minimizing the distinctions across class and background and instilling a sense of the commonalities across mankind.

[Dianne]

Everyman wrote: "Dianne wrote: "As a side note, I may post a day or two early as my schedule permits. I like to devote large chunks of time to these, and I grab them when they come :) "

It's obvious that your exce..."

Thanks Everyman! I am absolutely thrilled about the attention to this book and the level of detail all of you are paying to it. Thank you all so much!!

[Dianne]

Tracey wrote: "Fasting is common in a lot of religions as a means of communing more of God or with the spiritual world."

Has anyone tried fasting? How was the experience and what were the results? I find this idea fascinating but doubt I would be able to hold up!

[Dianne]

Everyman wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Well who is advocating what, exactly? It seems that Ishmael is advocating the business of whaling. ...He also notes that whaling was his "Yale College and [his] Harvard" - perhaps mo..."

I think that's right Everyman, and explains how our whaler Ishmael could be so learned and erudite. Still, it is a bit confusing for the reader!

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "I think the narrator and the author are very close.

It is, for me, a liberal and tolerant voice with maybe a slight sense of humor, and a knowledge of things referred to much broader than my own.
..."

Excellent points, Mark. It has seemed throughout the book, even this early, that perhaps Q will be THE most important character, and whale-hunter, in the book.

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Chapter 18 - His Mark




It seems odd to me that it is a condition for boarding ship that any heathens prove that they have converted to Christianity. Wouldn't this have been unlik..."

interesting! local color! I had thought he was trying to portray some profound message about the ultimate lack of distinctions across different types of people, but perhaps not!

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Chapter 22 - Merry Christmas

Why do they sail on Christmas day anyways? What was Melville driving at with that? I can't figure it out. Also, why does Melville keep referring to the..."

That's a good thought, Mark. Perhaps they thought leaving then would be a sort of good luck. Considering how worried Peleg and Bildad seemed about the voyage, that would make sense.

But I just read everyman's comment that Quakers didn't celebrate Christmas, SO perhaps it just didn't matter to them one way or the other. Still, why mention it then?

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "
Chapter 34
The Cabin-Table

How does the narrator, Ishmael, know of all the details he now recounts of the "goings on" when ship's "leadership" sit down to dine? Does he get all these anecdote'..."

Probably meals were a big topic of discussion. I would certainly comment on a lack of butter, myself !

[Dianne]

Lorna wrote: "I didn't understand why so many people were agonising about being kicked and pondering precisely what it meant, even dreaming about it - can anyone else make sense of this?

Sorry, I'm not very go..."

Chapter 31 had the reference about the dream of being kicked by Ahab. Perhaps it is foreshadowing? Perhaps the white peg leg is haunting the crew already? Perhaps noting that the leg is not part of the body is contrasting Ahab with the rest of the shipmates, characterizing him in some way as 'apart' and in some way as 'less than whole'?

[Mark]

Dianne wrote: "Brittany wrote: "Dianne wrote: " Are we to conclude that Queequeg is Muslim? Forgive my ignorance, but does Islam feature idolatry? "


- On Wikipedia it says that Queequeg practices a form of anim..."

I think the author uses the word Ramadan hoping his readers would recognize it. Not in the sense of knowing all the details, but rather in a generic sense that it was the name of a "high" holiday of some foreign and exotic religion.

[Roman Clodia]

Dianne wrote: "Lorna wrote: "I didn't understand why so many people were agonising about being kicked and pondering precisely what it meant, even dreaming about it - can anyone else make sense of this?"

And ch.22 is when Ishmael is kicked by Peleg and says 'that was my first kick'.

[Mark]

Dianne wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Chapter 18 - His Mark ..."

We were discussing in the first thread why I assumed that Q was a cannibal. But I note in this chapter that on Captain Peleg makes the sa..."

Once the story moves to being out to sea it seems like some of the class distinction conversations that occurred on shore are no longer in play. The islanders seem to be formidable men. They've hired on to do the most dangerous and important job of the whole enterprise: they are the ones that, up close and personal, actually murder the whales. The harpooners, even though they are not white eat at the captain's table: they are part of management. The harpooners are high skilled, highly motivated professionals. And I think they are shown the respect due men of their trade regardless of their appearances, their language, or their customs.
I think the author puts the shrunken-heads and bits in the story just to be a little upsetting to the audience: strange, dangerous and exotic. I also think the author has his savages take advantage of the sort of mystique attached to their places of origin, by acting-up, pretending to be more savage than they actually are.

[Roman Clodia]

Dianne wrote: "I think that's right Everyman, and explains how our whaler Ishmael could be so learned and erudite."

But we shouldn't forget that the Ishmael *telling* the story is an older, more mature version of the Ishmael *in* the story - he's recounting something in the past that he's already lived through, plenty of time to become erudite.

[Mark]

Dianne wrote: "Mark wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Chapter 18 - His Mark

Yes. That is the point he's trying to make, but what better marketing strategy than a tattooed man holding a shrunken-head on the cover to help sell the book.


It seems odd to me that it is a condition for boarding ship that any heathens prove that they have converted to Christianity. Wouldn't this ha..."

[Mark]

Dianne wrote: "Mark wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Chapter 22 - Merry Christmas

Why do they sail on Christmas day anyways? What was Melville driving at with that? I can't figure it out. Also, why does Melville keep ref..."

To show them as different, and because later on, there will be questions about providence!

[Mark]

Dianne wrote: "Mark wrote: "I think the narrator and the author are very close.

It is, for me, a liberal and tolerant voice with maybe a slight sense of humor, and a knowledge of things referred to much broader ..."

Thank you, Dianne!
Yes. The business of whale-hunting, sorry, white whale-hunting now becomes paramount.

[Roman Clodia]

Mark wrote: "I also think the author has his savages take advantage of the sort of mystique attached to their places of origin, by acting-up, pretending to be more savage than they actually are."

I agree - I don't think for a moment we're supposed to believe Queequeg's stories about fattening up people to use as sofas, for example: he's playing on Ishmael's naivety, though in an affectionate way.

[Mark]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Mark wrote: "I also think the author has his savages take advantage of the sort of mystique attached to their places of origin, by acting-up, pretending to be more savage than they actually are."

..."
Yes. I think the savages enjoy the trepidation that they can instill in white men! The story about the harpooners threatening to roast and eat the steward! - )

[Mark]

Chapter 36 The Quarter-Deck

Is this the first chapter to begin with stage directions?

"Vengeance on a dumb brute!" cried Starbuck, "that simply smote thee from blindest instinct! Madness! To be enraged with a dumb thing." (144)

So how "dumb" is a whale? How dumb did Melville think whales were then, how dumb do we see whales today? If we imagine the whale being "smart" does that change Starbuck's regard for Ahab's growing obsession?

[Patrick]

dumb = speechless

[Mark]

Is that all that Starbuck is implying by calling the whale "a dumb thing"?

[Patrick]

I believe so, yes. The use of "dumb" for "stupid" was not characteristic in the 19th Century.

[Mark]

Patrick wrote: "I believe so, yes. The use of "dumb" for "stupid" was not characteristic in the 19th Century."

Are there any other animals who have speech besides us? So doesn't it, being speechless, imply that all animals are inferior to us?

[Patrick]

Well, sure, in a sense. But Melville was NOT using "dumb" to mean "stupid". Speechless and incapable of communication, yes. Further inferences are with the reader.

[Mark]

Patrick wrote: "Well, sure, in a sense. But Melville was NOT using "dumb" to mean "stupid". Speechless and incapable of communication, yes. Further inferences are with the reader."

Are there any other animals that speak besides man?

[Roman Clodia]

Isn't what's at stake here the question of the whale's 'intention'? Ahab sees it as the embodiment of intentional malevolence, even evil; Starbuck sees it as acting only through defensive instinct.

[Mark]

So when Starbuck shouts, "Madness!", he's pointing to Ahab's having, what Starbuck sees as, a personal argument with a fish?

[Mark]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Isn't what's at stake here the question of the whale's 'intention'? Ahab sees it as the embodiment of intentional malevolence, even evil; Starbuck sees it as acting only through defensive instinct."

Yes. Defensively. Does the whale possess a right to self-preservation?

[Patrick]

Mark wrote: "Patrick wrote: "Well, sure, in a sense. But Melville was NOT using "dumb" to mean "stupid". Speechless and incapable of communication, yes. Further inferences are with the reader."

Are there any o..."

What is your point? I'm simply pointing out that the word "dumb" was not used at that time in the way that you suggest. Words change meanings over time. It is a common problem when I teach Shakespeare; students naturally interpret words in their modern meanings, which may not be relevant.

[Mark]

Patrick wrote: "Mark wrote: "Patrick wrote: "Well, sure, in a sense. But Melville was NOT using "dumb" to mean "stupid". Speechless and incapable of communication, yes. Further inferences are with the reader."

Ar..."
What I am interested in is how the word is used within the context of the book. Starbuck thinks it's madness that Ahab plans to engage in a personal vendetta against a "speechless" fish. I got that. But I'm curious as to what else might be implied by a creature being "speechless". That if we humans are the only ones with speech, dumb would seem to have a much broader connotation than just not talking. It implies a noted inferiority of mind. To me.

[Mark]

Chapter 41 Moby Dick

"This is much; yet Ahab's larger, darker, deeper part remains un-hinted. But vain to popularize profundities, and all truth is profound. Winding far down from within the very heart of this spiked Hotel de Cluny where we here stand--however grand and wonderful, now quit it;--and take your way, ye nobler, sadder souls, to those vast Roman halls of Thermes; where far beneath the fantastic towers of man's upper earth, his root of grandeur, his whole awful essence sits in bearded state; an antique buried beneath antiquities, and throned on torsoes!" (161)

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Brittany wrote: "Dianne wrote: " Are we to conclude that Queequeg is Muslim? Forgive my ignorance, but does Islam feature idolatry? "


- On Wikipedia it says that Queequeg practices..."

that could be. Perhaps it was a a religious event that people have heard of generally, like kwanzaa today?

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Chapter 18 - His Mark ..."

We were discussing in the first thread why I assumed that Q was a cannibal. But I note in this chapter that on Captain Pel..."

excellent point mark, the class distinctions do tend to fall away, although there certainly are 'tiers' among the crew.

[Dianne]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Dianne wrote: "I think that's right Everyman, and explains how our whaler Ishmael could be so learned and erudite."

But we shouldn't forget that the Ishmael *telling* the story is an older, more m..."

do you think so? I guess so. Maybe I am unfairly assuming that a former whaleman wasn't going to sit by the fire reading Milton.

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Mark wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Chapter 22 - Merry Christmas

Why do they sail on Christmas day anyways? What was Melville driving at with that? I can't figure it out. Also, why does Me..."

Providence! Exactly. I shall say no more.

[Dianne]

Patrick wrote: "Mark wrote: "Patrick wrote: "Well, sure, in a sense. But Melville was NOT using "dumb" to mean "stupid". Speechless and incapable of communication, yes. Further inferences are with the reader."

Ar..."

Patrick thank you! It's a honor to have a teacher of Shakespeare among us. I hope you will share your insights about Shakespeare (and other) references you encounter in the novel.

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "Patrick wrote: "Mark wrote: "Patrick wrote: "Well, sure, in a sense. But Melville was NOT using "dumb" to mean "stupid". Speechless and incapable of communication, yes. Further inferences are with ..."

I think the point is that revenge is pointless because there was no intention of the whale to harm anyone - while the whale is 'dumb' as in speechless, there is also a reference that he acted with 'blind instinct' - and there is no REASON to pursue an animal who acts based on its own primal instincts. Ahab is acting without reason, blinded by rage. To me the passage seems to imply that anger or vengeance should have a rational basis, and Ahab does not have one.

[Mark]

There seems to be more than mere speechlessness implied by the author when he has Starbuck utter the phrases: "dumb brute" and then "dumb thing" twice in rapid succession. There seems to be also an implied inferiority. It sounds very Old Testament to me. This ancient distinction of man's, granted by God, dominion over the animal world.
The question of revenge is another issue. Is there ever right minded vengeance?

[Linda]

So was that the extent of the “boring” part that people talk of? Chapter 32? It wasn’t nearly as long or as boring as I was expecting, unless there’s more to come. A coworker saw that I was reading Moby Dick this week and proceeded to tell me that he stalled at that chapter, just couldn’t get back into the book after that. And then when I finally read it, I couldn’t help but think “really?”.

[Linda]

I was surprised when Ishmael told us that he didn’t do a very good job when he was on duty as a masthead. Before starting this book, I was under the impression that Ishmael was one of the harpooners, close to the action. But it makes sense now that he’s not a harpooner since he’s not a whaler and instead takes to the sea by the way of various jobs. Queequeg’s position on the ship is what I imagined Ishmael’s position to be.

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "There seems to be more than mere speechlessness implied by the author when he has Starbuck utter the phrases: "dumb brute" and then "dumb thing" twice in rapid succession. There seems to be also an..."

of course there is right minded vengeance!

[Mark]

Your co-worker should be encouraged to return to the book. But to take offense at nine pages of whale biology, in a book about whales, really? - )

[Dianne]

Linda wrote: "So was that the extent of the “boring” part that people talk of? Chapter 32? It wasn’t nearly as long or as boring as I was expecting, unless there’s more to come. A coworker saw that I was reading..."

Well, first of all, it is called 'Cetology'. Then Melville quotes a bunch about whales and he lists a long list of authors that write about whales. Then there are a LOT of specifics about whales. And dry humor that only us reader types would appreciate. So I think it could lose people.

The main reason I think people call certain parts of the book 'boring' though, is because they don't directly relate to the plot. Perhaps indirectly, but there is no ACTION.

With that said, upon this third reading of the book I am really enjoying the boring parts. I think there are brilliant nuggets to be absorbed in each of these sections, and I am actually looking for them in those chapters. It's kind of a game - what are the illuminating insights from the chapters that digress from the main story?

[Dianne]

Linda wrote: "I was surprised when Ishmael told us that he didn’t do a very good job when he was on duty as a masthead. Before starting this book, I was under the impression that Ishmael was one of the harpooner..."

it's a good point Linda. What does Ishmael actually DO on the Pequod? His pay was paltry and he had no experience, so he probably wasn't very valuable.

[Mark]

Dianne wrote: "Mark wrote: "There seems to be more than mere speechlessness implied by the author when he has Starbuck utter the phrases: "dumb brute" and then "dumb thing" twice in rapid succession. There seems ..."

Really? And against animals too?
(I'm not saying that revenge is not a very popular HUMAN past time, I'm just wondering whether there is any evidence that it really ever does us any good?)

[Dianne]

Mark wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Mark wrote: "There seems to be more than mere speechlessness implied by the author when he has Starbuck utter the phrases: "dumb brute" and then "dumb thing" twice in rapid successio..."

well for people sure! They are not dumb brutes! That is why we have a criminal justice system! (the justice of which may be debatable)

But you didn't specify animals. And you are correct, vengeance is not appropriate against animals, even if they bite you or pee on you or whatever. However, if an animal is dangerous, it needs to be contained, trained, controlled, whatever, but that isn't 'vengeance' per se. If someone is seeking vengeance against an animal I would question their mental fortitude.

[Linda]

Good points, Dianne. It certainly doesn’t pertain to the action of the story. But still, as Mark said - “9 pages on whale biology in a book about whales” and that’s the breaking point? Lol.