Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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The Absurdity of Unbelief
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Are we responsible for our desires and emotions?
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Ned - all sentient mortals have desires and emotions that can be triggered in a number of ways. The Bible offers a guidebook to what is appropriate (pleases God) and what isn't (repels God). The seven deadly sins directly address the most widely abused human cupidities. We ARE going to occasionally lose our self restraint and go emotionally overboard. It's the human condition (curse?), However, due to our Faith, we are, mercifully, forgiven.
Responsible for their existence, no. For how we process and express them, yes.Where the mind dwells, the heart follows, so we certainly have a responsibilty to cultivate a holy heart by regulating and controlling our thoughts and perceptions. As fallen people, however, we are incapable of fully controlling our minds, so we can't be responsible for every emotion or desire.
On the other hand, actions are intentional and fully within our control, so in that respect (assuming a normally functioning brain and body) we do have absolute responsibility for what we do with our emotions and desires.
There are times, though, when I hope God can forgive our emotions. People with mental disorders, such as depression, which I have, struggle. I am lucky in that I am under medical care and am trying a new antidepressant. On good days, people with mental disorders know that the feelings they have aren't right but do not always know what to do with them. Even though I totally believe in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, on my bad days, I wonder why God hates me and why He has turned His back on me. It takes me quite a bit to push those thoughts out of my head and realize that He does love me.
I also was sexually abused twice and was in a verbally abusive marriage for 33 years. For every child who is abused, for every male and female who are abused, the emotional trauma is real. I cry every time I hear about animals and people who are abused. I pray that God forgives them and helps them. I wish I could do more to help others get out of that cycle of abuse and emotional trauma. I know God is loving and it must hurt Him so much to see what we humans do to others. Please forgive us all, dear Father.
I also was sexually abused twice and was in a verbally abusive marriage for 33 years. For every child who is abused, for every male and female who are abused, the emotional trauma is real. I cry every time I hear about animals and people who are abused. I pray that God forgives them and helps them. I wish I could do more to help others get out of that cycle of abuse and emotional trauma. I know God is loving and it must hurt Him so much to see what we humans do to others. Please forgive us all, dear Father.
Yep, us humans are a mess. God is indeed letting us try things OUR way for a time --- all eternity will be glad we will live under a pure King.God gave us a perfect guide book. Few bother to read and understand it.
Solomon followed his desires: his wives and concubines probably loathed him for it. Yet the nation did Nothing.
Absolutely ... which is why we must repent. There is nothing unique or special about the causes of our sin. Man has been doing that seemingly forever. But we are responsible for what we do, and repent (if sinful) for the sins we commit.
First I would say if they are our emotions then we are the only ones who control how they manifest. Scripture tells us everything we need to know. The Bible says the heart is deceitful and above all desperately wicked, who can know it. Why? Because everyone born into this world is born with corruptible seed. When we are born again of The Spirit we are born of incorruptible seed. This actually is a whole study that is included in our discipleship training manual. It is a process of learning to put off the old man and learning to put on the new man in Christ Jesus according to scripture. The battle is won or lost between the ears. Scripture says we have the mind of Christ, but it also says LET this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. It also says out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. When we think differently according to the Word of God we will act differently. Your mind is like a landing strip, thoughts come, you are in the control tower, it is up to you which ones you let land. That is why the scripture tells us in 2nd Cor.10:4-5 "4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" The strong holds have been set up in our mind. God would not tell us to take every thought captive if we were not able to do it. We do it by scripture. For example He also tells us how to monitor our thoughts in Phil.4:8. In our training manual we call this the monitor, the filter, or the girdle for our thoughts."Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." If you thoughts do not fit in this list you cast them down. It is a process. But the problem in the body of Christ is the lack of discipleship training. We have a discipleship program, Feed My Sheep Discipleship Training Manual. I also have the whole program on CD which I have a limited number of copies of the CD I would give away free, even though it cost us to produce them. Discipleship is so important. We learn about the solid foundation Jesus Christ, what does it really mean to be born again? Learning to put off the old man and put on the new man in Christ. Learning to walk in the Spirit not in the flesh. So many things we need to know and it is all there for us in The Word of God. So perhaps I went on and on to a simple question, and indeed we are responsible. God wants to heal us of the bad memories, of the old man stinking thinking, to set us free to run the race that is set before us so that not only are we free but the bad things that happened to us in the past or that we did to ourselves is a tool, without emotion, that will slay the enemy in others as we use those experiences for God's glory. Blessings
Laurette, it sounds like you guys have a great program! I agree that discipleship is so important. Churches tend to propagate shallow Christianity so often. There is not nearly enough thinking and education going on the the average church, I'm afraid.
Guys - this excess righteousness just cracks me up. According to the Good Book, we are all as dirty rags who don't deserve to be in the presence of God. Jesus' mercy, which we don't deserve, is all there is between us and hell. Hopefully, all of have us repented and come to Christ, but NONE of us will ever be lacking in sin.
Robert wrote: "Guys - this excess righteousness just cracks me up.Could you explain what you mean by that?
According to the Good Book, we are all as dirty rags who don't deserve to be in the presence of God. Jesus' mercy, which we don't deserve, is all there is between us and hell. Hopefully, all of have us repented and come to Christ, but NONE of us will ever be lacking in sin.
I doubt anyone here so far disagrees with that. Does that mean sin and don't worry about it? Sin all the more that grace may increase? Rom 6:1
Robert wrote: "Guys - this excess righteousness just cracks me up. According to the Good Book, we are all as dirty rags who don't deserve to be in the presence of God. Jesus' mercy, which we don't deserve, is all..."Excess Righteousness? It's not our righteousness. 2 Corinthians 5:21"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."2 Corinthians 6:7 "By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,"2 Corinthians 6:14"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"Eph.4:24 "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."Phil.3:9 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"1Pet.2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."1John 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." Rev.19:7-8 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Of COURSE in our flesh we are not righteous, all our fleshly righteousness is as filthy rags but when we are born again of the Spirit of Almighty God we are not supposed to walk in the flesh but in the Spirit. But it surely is a process, learning to put off the old man and put on the new man in Christ Jesus. That incorruptible seed you were born with, that is what needs to be understood. The new man in Christ Jesus. But again it is a process. Jesus taught His disciples every step of the way for three years, Paul taught Timothy, this kind of teaching THROUGH scripture is lacking and the body of Christ should be the most powerful body on the face of the earth, but it is floundering because they have not been discipled. Blessings
Ned wrote: "Laurette, it sounds like you guys have a great program! I agree that discipleship is so important. Churches tend to propagate shallow Christianity so often. There is not nearly enough thinking and ..."Thanks for the kind words. I don't take credit for the program, The Holy Spirit gave it to me. It happened one Sunday morning after service when I cried out to God what was happening with His children why is the body so weak and floundering and The Holy Spirit immediately impressed on me, "They have not been discipled" So long story, but the program came about through that. Currently we have eleven discipleship teams in Bangladesh, and that is a miracle, God is bringing in a huge harvest there, North America has a smorgasbord of dainties to choose from and really are not awake to the signs of the times. We press on, shine the light in the midst of darkness. Blessings
Ned wrote: "I am currently reading The Absurdity of Unbelief, which is great, BTW. I am going to post an excerpt of the author's discussion of emotion and desire, which pretty much correlates with temptation. ...""This means our ever-changing circumstances expose our true nature and our personal values." That pretty well sums it up.
Tyrone wrote: "Absolutely ... which is why we must repent. There is nothing unique or special about the causes of our sin. Man has been doing that seemingly forever. But we are responsible for what we do, and rep..."Amen
Kathleen wrote: "Responsible for their existence, no. For how we process and express them, yes.Where the mind dwells, the heart follows, so we certainly have a responsibilty to cultivate a holy heart by regulating..."I agree with you, good response.
Laurette - that's why I don't take the Bible literally - it overpromises beyond the inherent abilities of man's nature. Reading your post, I'd think you were 100% in touch with the Holy Spirit, but I know better. You're subject to the same fleshly desires as the rest of us, but subjugate them to put up the righteous façade. Paraphrasing God "there is no good man, not one."
It would be really refreshing if someone said: "I am lustful, angry, envious, glutinous, wrathful, greedy, prideful, and tend toward sloth. Also, I'm not averse to fornication and have several idols. HOWEVER, because I came to Christ, these tendencies no longer rule me as I have a new master whom I adore so much I keep my sinning to the bare minimum my individual psyche can tolerate.
Robert wrote: "It would be really refreshing if someone said: "I am lustful, angry, envious, glutinous, wrathful, greedy, prideful, and tend toward sloth. Also, I'm not averse to fornication and have several idol..."I see this topic is about the absurdity of unbelief. Sounds like the shoe fits Robert. And yes I think it is appropriate for me to say that as you accuse me of having a righteous façade. Are you born again of The Holy Spirit, and what does born again mean to you since you do not take The Bible literally?
Robert wrote: "Laurette - that's why I don't take the Bible literally - it overpromises beyond the inherent abilities of man's nature. Reading your post, I'd think you were 100% in touch with the Holy Spirit, but..." I simply quoted scripture and you are quoting your opinions.
Literally- the Bible says we ain't gonna stop sinning till we get to Heaven. Therefore, I take it literally.
Rod wrote: "Literally- the Bible says we ain't gonna stop sinning till we get to Heaven. Therefore, I take it literally."Yes that is right, and if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Laurette - I'm with Rod, you'll be cleansed of all unrighteousness when you die.
James 1:14 - "But each one is tempted when he is dragged away, enticed and baited [to commit sin] by his own [worldly]
desire
(lust, passion)."Sounds like God holds us responsible!
Robert wrote: "Guys - this excess righteousness just cracks me up. According to the Good Book, we are all as dirty rags who don't deserve to be in the presence of God. Jesus' mercy, which we don't deserve, is all..."Philippians 3:9 - "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
Romans 3:22 - "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"
EXCESSIVE?????
Laurette wrote: "Exactly Robert, don't you see it?"It is the OTHER Robert who doesn't see it.
Robert wrote: "Laurette wrote: "Exactly Robert, don't you see it?"It is the OTHER Robert who doesn't see it." Oh hahhah, sorry Robert. Good one. and yes exactly the point. Blessings.
Laurette, Robert D. - this Robert sees what St. Augustine saw. That ALL men are sinful and revel in it. Denying your nature is denying the message of Adam and Eve. Before they managed to do anything else they disobeyed God. All of us have original sin in our core. Thinking you have expunged it through holy charades is wishful, dishonest posturing. Better to admit you can't stand in the presence of God, but that Jesus paid for your sin, covers it, and allows your salvation through Belief.
Robert wrote: "Laurette, Robert D. - this Robert sees what St. Augustine saw. That ALL men are sinful and revel in it. Denying your nature is denying the message of Adam and Eve. Before they managed to do anythin..."My response: I am NOT surprised... I QUOTE Scripture and the other Robert seeks to CONTRADICT the Word of God.
Philippians 3:9 - "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
Romans 3:22 - "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"
Robert D. - OK, we have a distinct difference of opinion on the definition of "righteousness".
Robert wrote: "Robert D. - OK, we have a distinct difference of opinion on the definition of "righteousness"."Yes, we have GOD'S opinion (QUOTED in the BIBLE) and we have the WRONG opinion (expressed by YOU)
Robert wrote: "Laurette, Robert D. - this Robert sees what St. Augustine saw. That ALL men are sinful and revel in it. Denying your nature is denying the message of Adam and Eve. Before they managed to do anythin..."We are all born with a sin nature, the corruptible seed, the scripture says when we are born again we are born of incorruptible seed. The flesh is not born again, the flesh is the Psuche(Sookay) realm, the mind will and emotions, we are born again of the Spirit(Pneuma), which is sealed, saved and does not sin. If nothing happens when we are born again then we might as well say Christ is not risen and our faith is in vain. But Christ is risen. We are born again of incorruptible seed, born into this world with corruptible seed, right there we see the difference. But note, it is seed there must be a growing process, to produce fruit. This is where we learn to put off the old man and put on the new man in Christ Jesus according to scripture. But of course our flesh is still alive and will be drawn by the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life, but the more we learn to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ according to scripture the more we begin to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh, learning to put on the mind of Christ as the scripture directs. But it is a process, and when we sin The Holy Spirit convicts, not condemns, so we can confess and be free to run the race set before us. Of course it is difficult to lay all this out here because it is all a matter of discipling through the Word of God, line upon line precept upon precept here a little, there a little. So in the end, yes our flesh will sin but hopefully less and less but nevertheless it is the flesh, but our spirit is saved sealed and does not sin when we are born again of The Spirit. The bottom line is THE WORD THE WORD THE WORD. Devour The Word, Feed on The Word. We are all on a journey, learning as we go.
Laurette wrote: "Robert wrote: "Laurette, Robert D. - this Robert sees what St. Augustine saw. That ALL men are sinful and revel in it. Denying your nature is denying the message of Adam and Eve. Before they manage..."Well said!
"Abstinence is like a diet artificially applied from without. Chastity is a power, and needs no diet, because the tastes are for what is good and healthy already, and the chaste person is therefore free, ready to go to work..."http://www.crisismagazine.com/2018/ch...
Robert Core has gone off on some red herring evidently because something about this topic makes him uncomfortable. No one here is saying we'll ever be sinless in this present life, though that is our ultimate goal! Sinlessness is an ideal we strive for whether it is achievable in this life or not, and sin is something we should grieve over when we fail. I'm not sure what you are driving at Robert, but you seem to be leaning toward antinomianism.Getting back to the OP, the point is that we are responsible for our feelings and desires since they stem from what we value. This suggests a strategy to combat our sinful tendencies. We begin to lessen our evil desires by CHOOSING what we value the most. This is accomplished by renewing the mind, which transforms us (ROM 12:2.) When we say the same thing that God says about our sin, and place a high value on the things God values, it will cause us to be tempted less.
I wish I could remember what book it was, but I recently read about a man who lost his life in the twin towers. It talked about his heroic behavior in helping others stemming from the fact that he saw himself as brave, a man of action, and someone who "mans up." Because that is the vision he cast of himself, he acted accordingly. What does that tell us about Godliness? We tend to become what we admire. God has promised to help us by the power of His Spirit. With His help, we can do better. But it won't happen as long as we deny our culpability and act as though we are some kind of helpless, passive victims.
Laurette - well said, I agree with you! What is troublesome to both honest Christians and those outside the Faith is the loud, chest pounding assertion of righteousness endemic to holier-than-thou cultists. The flesh never totally disappears as you maintained, but can be reined in by process. Of this we should be grateful and urge others to minimize sin and optimize carrying the cross, instead of exhibiting the sin of pride for all to see by boasting of our purity.
Ned - if man could fix himself from his sinfulness, then he wouldn't need Jesus. That's impossible, because of original sin as I pointed out. This is no red herring, but consistent with Biblical teaching. I have no problem with striving toward Godliness - my problem is with those who actually believe they've attained it.
I have no problem with striving toward Godliness - my problem is with those who actually believe they've attained it. Who claims that, Robert? It seems to me you are arguing against an imaginary proposition. Obviously, man cannot fix himself. He doesn't even know what to aim for outside God. God IS the aim. God is truth, God is love, etc.
We are still responsible for our sin, evil desires, etc. Otherwise, God would be unjust in judging anyone, or even commanding us to "put away evil desires."
"Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind." 1 Peter 2:1
What I fail to understand is why you think there is an argument.
There's no argument, Ned. Robert C. projects legalism onto people with reckless abandon. I just don't seen an argument here, but I do see a man who loves to condemn others....
RECEIVE or REJECT...Philippians 3:9 - "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
Romans 3:22 - "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"
Ned - Robert D. claims that through his belief he has been perfected. Others here are not so outrageous in their posts, but insinuate the same. There is no real argument, just a gentle reminder that taking Scripture out of context for personal aggrandizemet is a temptation we all face and must constantly guard against.
Robert wrote: "Ned - Robert D. claims that through his belief he has been perfected..."My response: WHAT A LIE! I have claimed nothing!!!
I QUOTED THE BIBLE... and you are OFFENDED by the Word of God... and prefer your OWN words...
I stand on what I previously posted...
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RECEIVE or REJECT...
Philippians 3:9 - "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
Romans 3:22 - "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"
Ned wrote: ""Abstinence is like a diet artificially applied from without. Chastity is a power, and needs no diet, because the tastes are for what is good and healthy already, and the chaste person is therefore..."Good words.
I am personally very suspicious of self-vindicating or excusing aspects of worldviews. I can't find the precise quote right now, but I recall Ravi Zacharias using an illustration of a woman carrying a water jar on her head, as they often do in eastern countries. Our true self is what spills out of the water jar when we are bumped by life's circumstances. It's a sobering thought, but very true, I think.
Read and consider the author's argument (some of the emphasis will be mine):
Man’s Nature Controls His Emotions
This sinful heart also controls fallen man’s emotions. It is a false but common notion to think that we are not responsible for our emotions. We often speak as if our emotions are alien creatures that attack us from the outside, as if they are outside of our control. “I can’t help the way I feel.” “You would feel the same way if this had happened to you.” “I couldn’t help that I fell in love with her.” “You can’t help who you love.” “How could my emotions not be affected if I learn something bad had happened to my mother, or if I hear that my rich uncle was about to give me a million dollars?” “Of course my emotional ups and downs are a result of factors outside of my control.” “I am a victim of my own emotions.” “I am a victim of my circumstances.” “I am an emotional person. I can’t help it.” With such common statements as these, people would have us believe their emotions are not derived from within themselves but from their external circumstances.
Such excuses eliminate the responsibility to control our emotions. Emotional problems are not like cancer; they are not diseases that attack us without our permission. We are not innocent victims of our own emotions. Emotions are not alien forces that are caused by our ever-changing circumstances. Rather, we are responsible for our emotions. We are responsible for loving that which is good and hating that which is bad. Jesus Christ made it clear in the Sermon on the Mount that we are not only responsible for how we outwardly behave, but also for how we inwardly feel.
It is true that our emotions are connected to our circumstances. It is not true, however, that our emotions are controlled by our circumstances. Rather, our emotions are controlled by our values (i.e., the things that we love and hate). Because I love my mom, it would deeply sadden me if I learned something bad had happened to her. How distressed would I feel? It all depends on the level and degree of love that I have for my mother. Because I value money, I would naturally rejoice to learn that my rich uncle was going to endow me with a million dollars. It is not that our emotions are controlled by the uncontrolled changes in our environment, but rather it is our pre-established values that control how we emotionally respond to the uncontrolled changes in our circumstances. This means our ever-changing circumstances expose our true nature and our personal values.
If we have emotional problems – and all of fallen humanity does – it is because we have our priorities and values out of place. Emotional problems are a direct result of a heart problem. As a bad tree always produces bad fruit, so a wicked heart will always produce wicked thoughts, feelings, and behavior. A selfish lifestyle that is consumed with satisfying felt needs and gratifying moment-to-moment expectations will no doubt result in an unstable emotional life. Our emotions are a reflection of our values and of our nature.
Johnson, Jeffrey D.. The Absurdity of Unbelief: A Worldview Apologetic of the Christian Faith (Kindle Locations 818-841). Free Grace Press. Kindle Edition.