A Man Lay Dead - SPOILER Thread

[Deborah]

Nijinsky was dancing the afternoon of the faun in 1912. Perhaps that was what created the faun reference

[Pages]

In mythology, fauns can be many things such as sensual, mischevious etc. I think, in this case, Charles was a little sinister and twisted and vaguely threatening, that's how I thought Nigel sees him sometimes. And many faun paintings and statues sometimes have strange and eerie smiles.

[Judy]

Reading A Man Lay Dead this time round, it struck me how similar the plot is in some ways to The Crime at Black Dudley, the very first Albert Campion book by Margery Allingham, which also involves a house party and a game (well, a ritual!) with a dagger.

I wondered if Allingham's book, which was published a few years earlier, influenced Marsh's. When I googled this, I came across a long extract from the Marsh bio which Susan read, Ngaio Marsh: Her Life in Crime by Joanne Drayton - Harper Collins have put this on their site as a taster for the book.

Drayton thinks that The Crime at Black Dudley probably influenced A Man Lay Dead, but points out that despite the plot similarities the books feel very different - she discusses how Allingham racks up the tension in a mansion full of secret passages.

i don't want to encourage anyone to read the Drayton though - I thought I should be safe to read about A Man Lay Dead as I'd already read the book, but, as Susan warned, it is absolutely full of spoilers and not only for Marsh's own books!!

I was dismayed to find that Drayton gives away whodunit in The Murder of Roger Ackroyd by Agatha Christie, which I haven't read yet - she doesn't even put in any kind of spoiler warning. Grrr!! Susan, I should have listened to you!

[Judy]

P.S. I didn't bother to read the rest of the extract after that in case it spoiled any more books I haven't read yet. :(

[Pages]

Judy wrote: "P.S. I didn't bother to read the rest of the extract after that in case it spoiled any more books I haven't read yet. :("

That's a shame. Some biographies do that. Like how the author got inspiration for the killer or victim and then they name the book. :)

[Tara]

This was my first foray into Marsh's world of Inspector Alleyn, and I really enjoyed it. I found myself rushing through to get to the denouement about whodunit, which is always a good sign its a great read. I couldn't help but compare Alleyn to Sherlock Holmes; something in his manner and way of thinking drew me there, although I think in actually there are more differences than similarities. I am intrigued to see how his character develops. I agree that the idea of sliding head first down a bannister seems ludicrous, but apparently this is described as a popular diversion. Does anyone know if this is true?

[Susan]

Judy, as you know, the Drayton biography WAS to be an extra book for those who didn't want to re-read the first book. I suggested we drop it for precisely the reason you said - I've only read the first couple of Marsh novels and I kept having to skip parts which gave whole plots away. It wasn't even a good biography - I still don't feel I know anything much about her that I didn't know before!

Tara, I know there were a lot of house games at these weekend parties. I can't imagine why people would want to slide down bannisters head first, but there you are... Perhaps they did? It is like schoolboy games - pillow fights and ragging. I'd have frankly paid NOT to have been invited to his weekend parties, but I guess it's a matter of taste. I have read that, if people were known to be having affairs, then they were put in adjoining rooms to make liaisons easier and so I suspect that, often, people were just on some sort of adultery circuit!

[Judy]

Susan wrote: "Judy, as you know, the Drayton biography WAS to be an extra book for those who didn't want to re-read the first book. I suggested we drop it for precisely the reason you said - I've only read the f..."

I'll admit I wasn't expecting her to spoil a Christie novel in passing! Oh well, I'll know to avoid looking at her discussions of a particular book even after reading it, in case she randomly spoils something else by another author.

[Judy]

Re the banisters, I sometimes used to slide down the banister as a child (not starting from very high up!), but would not have done it head first. I should have thought it is/was quite unusual for adults, but as you say, Susan, it goes with the ragging and other games they indulge in.

Interesting to see that Arthur is said to have been bullied by Charles at Eton, so the creepy ragging is a hangover from that - and a hint that they are not such great friends as it might seem! A shame Nigel goes along with it, though...

[Lesley]

Judy wrote: "Susan wrote: "Judy, as you know, the Drayton biography WAS to be an extra book for those who didn't want to re-read the first book. I suggested we drop it for precisely the reason you said - I've o..."

Yes, I had the book from the library over the Christmas break but on Susan's advice didn't read it. I peeked at a couple of chapter's opening pages and realised how it is not just Marsh's life in crime, but every other GA author's. I could see it would be laden with spoilers. There is very little about Marsh herself when I skimmed the contents, and really should have been titled to indicate it is a run down of all GA crime novels! Very annoying.

[Susan]

I am glad I read it, if only to tell everyone else to save it until after the challenge - should you wish to read it at all (I wouldn't bother though, to be honest!).

[Sandy]

Susan wrote: "I am glad I read it, if only to tell everyone else to save it until after the challenge - should you wish to read it at all (I wouldn't bother though, to be honest!)."


Thank you taking one for the team!

[Robin]

The beauty of John Curran's book, Secret Notebooks (Agatha Christie) is that each chapter has a heading which makes it very clear which novels will be discussed and spoilers raised. A bit more work, but shouldn't be hard to do to be fair to readers.

[Bev]

Sue wrote: "Bev wrote: "I tried googling to see what "faun smiling" might bring up...."

Good thinking Sherlock! :-) I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps it was a contemporary cultural reference that means nothin..."

Thanks. It's a sculpted head--maybe this link will work: (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HNoAAO...)

I saw that Picasso when I googled as well, but I liked the sculpture. Which, by the way, appears for me, but not as it did when I first posted it (now it appears squished).

[Susan]

Sandy wrote: "Susan wrote: "I am glad I read it, if only to tell everyone else to save it until after the challenge - should you wish to read it at all (I wouldn't bother though, to be honest!)."


Thank you ta..."

You're welcome, Sandy. Oddly, the author suggested that Ngaio Marsh burnt all her private papers, was a very private person and hinted at all sorts of possibilities. It was obviously Marsh's right to be secretive and not wish her personal life to be revealed, but if you are writing a biography you are meant to do a little digging, perhaps? Or at least make what you actually find sound interesting...

Robin, I keep meaning to read The Secret Notebooks. I think that will be worth reading and the spoilers won't be an issue as I have read most Christie's.

[Roman Clodia]

Finished this - my first Marsh! I enjoyed it and look forward to more Alleyn but it's no real challenge to Christie, in my view. Comparing it to Christie's first book, The Mysterious Affair at Styles which some of us have just/are reading, Styles feels slicker and more flowing.

I got very bored of the Russian secret society chapters. And the solution is one of the most absurd ever - sliding down the bannister head first in just his underpants, while grabbing a dagger is, surely, a comedy classic?!

[Roman Clodia]

I didn't believe the debagging scene at all - at Eton, yes; at a formal house-party, no - and wonder if this was an indication of Marsh's non-Englishness?

[Roman Clodia]

Actually, I was confused about what the dagger was doing on the wall at all? It was still Rankin's at that stage, surely? And with such split-second timing, how could the murderer know that Rankin would be bending over the cocktails at that precise second? No, a bit sloppy and unbelievable as a solution, though certainly imaginative and one almost guaranteed to take the reader by surprise!

[Mark Pghfan]

I'm glad someone else thought the method with the banister and the dagger was silly and unlikely. I hated to mention it earlier! From the few Alleyn's I've read, the solutions are much more sensible.

[Jill]

I think we all agree the banisters was rather far-fetched, but the rest of the book made up for it,imo.

[Laura]

Just finished it. I found it thoroughly potty, though quite enjoyable. As it was a relatively short book, the Russian saga didn't continue long enough to find totally interminable, though it was getting to be a bit of a distraction.

The banister was barmy! Quite hilarious though - I would love to see a screen adaptation of that. I would be in stitches!

[Susan]

I do agree that The Mysterious Affair of Styles is by far the best debut novel by any of the Big 4. Certainly, Christie and Sayers are, in my opinion, far ahead of the pack. Saying that, I really enjoyed this and I am loving Marsh's second Inspector Alleyn mystery. I think I have struggled with Allingham the most, but am looking forward to reading her second Campion novel.

[[deleted user]]

I second the notion that Christie and Sayers are the best. I had to remind myself not to get into the comparative mode and enjoy this novel for what it is ... pretty darn good. In the first couple of chapters (mostly exposition), I was struggling with keeping characters separated in my head. I started thinking how Christie somehow introduces even more characters and they seem to stick. Unfair comparison, by which most any author would suffer.

[Susan]

Well, all of the Big 4 are very, very good. We wouldn't want them to be the same anyway as that would be boring. I have liked Allingham's novels the least of the four, so far, but I am willing to keep going with them and see whether we become more compatible. I am sure the fault is mine...

[[deleted user]]

Susan wrote: "Well, all of the Big 4 are very, very good. We wouldn't want them to be the same anyway as that would be boring. "

True that!

[Judy]

Must agree all the 4 are excellent, but Sayers and Allingham are my favourites - I love Wimsey and Campion. I do love Marsh too though, and am going to really enjoy a year of reading her books.

I'd never been quite so much of a fan of Christie, dare I say, but she is growing on me after reading the Miss Marples, and I am looking forward to reading the first Poirot before the month is out. :)

[Sue]

Bev wrote: "Thanks. It's a sculpted head--maybe this link will work: (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HNoAAO...)

I saw that Picasso when I googled as well, but I liked the sculpture. Which, by the way, appears for me, but not as it did when I first posted it (now it appears squished). ..."

Thanks Bev I can see it now. What an eerie-looking face! I can't make up my mind whether it is cheerful or evil. Perhaps that's what Nigel meant in the book!

[Bev]

Sue wrote: "Thanks Bev I can see it now. What an eerie-looking face! I can't make up my mind whether it is cheerful or evil. Perhaps that's what Nigel meant in the book!"

Yeah, that's kind of what I thought when I saw it. Charles really is a bit of a rotter, and very pleased with himself--even more so in the TV adaptation, I think. The sculpture captures that for me.

[Susan]

Charles fills that early GA role of being the unlikeable victim. However, he is not as unlikeable as some we have come across and several members of the house party seemed to really mourn him; including Angela, who cried.

[Sandy]

I enjoyed reading my first Marsh book even if the banister sliding was a bit unbelievable. I am looking forward to seeing the development of Alleyn as a detective. Now to search to see if I can find that youtube video that has been mentioned.

[Sue]

I watched the youtube version tonight. On the plus side, they simplified the story by removing the whole Russian sub plot, which improved it I thought. I would guess this version was done in the 80s, from the costumes mainly, and I thought the acting was a little hammy in some places and overall it hadn't aged well. Nevertheless I enjoyed it!

[Tracey]

Enjoyed this book, although the agree that the bannister sliding is quite far-fetched. Will have to seek out the version on Youtube.

I quite liked the relationship between Nigel & Alleyn. There is an interesting converstation between Rosamund and Nigel where they are discussing Alleyn, and talk about how their knowledge of Police is based on detective fiction, "and nowadays they make their Yard me so naturalistic that they are quite incredible"!

[Judy]

Haha Tracey, there are so many detective stories where characters say "Now, if this was a detective story..."

[Tracey]

Indeed!

[Susan]

GA authors liked to put a little humour in and it was acceptable. Readers loved the challenge of solving the mystery and, also, most people read from the library and so they would have been reading different authors all the time - reading much more widely than people do now. I remember when my grandmother was ill and the librarian would send me home with a parcel of books for her, which the librarian had chosen - the latest romance, latest crime, etc. Now, we tend to often read the same author, one after the other (like the Marple challenge) and the writing does suffer when you read a whole series, because there are similarities in books.

[Tara]

Susan wrote: "GA authors liked to put a little humour in and it was acceptable. Readers loved the challenge of solving the mystery and, also, most people read from the library and so they would have been reading..."

I think the experience of binge watching television that most people do now with all of the streaming services available also has this same effect Susan. So many things do not hold up to constant, immediate exposure, compared to the slow unwinding that was initially intended when they were created. One aspect I did enjoy with the Marple challenge (and that I am looking forward to with this year's Marsh challenge), is reading the stories in order, and watching the characters develop through time and experience. So often I would just read things as they became available at the library, so you lose that aspect of the story line arch. When we get attached to characters, we want to know what happens to them, so its understandable why people would want to keep with them rather than jumping around to different things. I surely have a TBR list that I will never complete (and that is constantly growing), so I try to read things as my mood strikes me.

[Susan]

Like you, I will never complete my TBR list, Tara. It is nice to read a whole series, or part of a series in order, and that is one of the reasons we started our yearly challenge.

[Laura]

Tara, I completely agree. I have always just read books in a series that were either recommended to me, given to me, or that were in the library. I am also really looking forward to reading Marsh's books in order and to see how this affects my overall impression of the characters. When reading Poirot or Marple, for example, I've never even considered their relation to time or previous cases - they have just existed to me as stand-alone books, which of course they aren't really.

[Mark Pghfan]

This is my third year with this group and I've enjoyed greatly the challenges, Lord Peter, Miss Marple, and now Alleyn. This year, many of the Marsh's will be new to me, unlike the previous challenges. I enjoy reading a series in order as many of us do!

[Suki]

I have had all of Marsh's Alleyn books for several years now, but never seemed to get around to reading them (my TBR is enormous!), so I was very pleased when I saw that the series was this year's challenge. I really enjoyed the book, I thought it was very well done for a first effort, and I am really looking forward to the next books in the series.

[Susan]

Great to hear you have enjoyed the challenges, Mark :) Suki, like you, I often find I never get around to books without a push!

[Sandy]

Suki, for me owning a book usually drops it down to the bottom of my TBR. I always find something at the library and that book has a due date!

[Susan]

I find a similar thing with NetGalley books, Sandy, which I do try to read by their release date...

[Mark Pghfan]

Sandy, you are right on the point of owning the book verses having a library due date! I'm fighting that right now. I have a book due back soon and I should really be reading February's Marsh title!

[Tara]

I am terrible about this as well, but I am trying to mix in stuff I own with library books. I also keep buying new books when I have a ton already that I have never read. I have a good 3-4 books I am reading at any one time, not counting the audiobooks I also listen to. I think I have a problem....

[Sandy]

Tara wrote: "I am terrible about this as well, but I am trying to mix in stuff I own with library books. I also keep buying new books when I have a ton already that I have never read. I have a good 3-4 books I ..."

Its a very common problem ... I haven't found a cure.

[Tara]

Sandy wrote: "Tara wrote: "I am terrible about this as well, but I am trying to mix in stuff I own with library books. I also keep buying new books when I have a ton already that I have never read. I have a good..."

The question is Sandy, do we really want to find a cure? But it heartens me to know there are others in the world who share my obsessions. Most of the "real" people in my life are casual readers, if they read books at all, so I have always felt like a bit of a crazy person in this regard. It was life-changing finding the asylum known as Goodreads!

[Susan]

Tara wrote: "Sandy wrote: "Tara wrote: "I am terrible about this as well, but I am trying to mix in stuff I own with library books. I also keep buying new books when I have a ton already that I have never read...."

That is very true. Goodreads is the bookish support group for the severely addicted bibliophile.... Books anonymous :)

[Jill]

I have nearly 2,000 books on my TBR list and that is nowhere near the amount of books I have here. I have in a lot of cases only put on the the first couple of a series to see how they go. My sister is an avid reader but only reads real books which she buys and then passes them to me. Also a neighbour of a friend was going into a care home and had to dispose of her books, but she wanted them to go to someone who actually read, so when she found I did she asked me to take them. A lot of those I have yet to sort through.
I have a lot of kindle books that I did buy , and also loads of free ones that I got when I first got my kindle and was click happy.
There is absolutely no way that I will read them all in my lifetime, and just hope that my children find them a good home when the time comes.
Also I do guiltily buy new ones , as I just can't help myself!

[Susan]

Jill said, "Also I do guiltily buy new ones , as I just can't help myself!"

Me too, Jill. Not guiltily enough, I suspect. Books are my one vice and addiction...