2025 Reading Challenge discussion
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The Picture of Dorian Gray: Chapter 1-5
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Hi everyone.... base on the first three chapters I’m a bit confuse in regards to the nature of their relationship. At times it seems as Basil and “harry” are competing for gray’s affection in other ways other than friendship itself. Great book so far!
Richard wrote: "Hi everyone.... base on the first three chapters I’m a bit confuse in regards to the nature of their relationship. At times it seems as Basil and “harry” are competing for gray’s affection in other ways other than friendship itself. .."Yes, it felt that way to me too sometimes.
Even the first page was already hard for me to get into, and now I've finished Chapter 4 and still struggle to see what others were singing praises about. Glad to know I'm not the only one feeling that it's difficult to immerse myself into the story.There were great quotes about people in general that I really like, since it's sort of a philosophical book. Aside from that, I'm waiting for a story progression.
I just completely lost myself and finished the first five chapters. All of the characters so far are just so colorful and lively. The conversations and banter are so boring and witty. The prose is matter of fact yet charming and flowery. This is my first Wilde and I'm really enjoying it!Also greatly helps that I picked this up at a used bookstore to help star off my challenge this year.
Richard wrote: "Hi everyone.... base on the first three chapters I’m a bit confuse in regards to the nature of their relationship. At times it seems as Basil and “harry” are competing for gray’s affection in other..."It does comes across to me that Lord Henry is majorly crushing on Dorian. What fuels this idea for me is that Lord Henry’s relationship with his wife appears to be for show on both their parts, as they don’t spend much time with each other and appear together in society every now and then. It seems that character’s appearances to the outside world is very important in this book but I think during that era and society it is set in, it was.
I read this book a few years back but I can only remember the basics of it so it’s like reading it for the first time again. The characters have some interesting, and some boring conversations and their views are often ones I don’t agree with (which I like). It all seems rather whimsical though and I can’t work out whether I am enjoying this or not…
*Amber* wrote: " It all seems rather whimsical though "Hi Amber, how do you mean that? (probably just my English, but not sure what you mean)
Susy wrote: "*Amber* wrote: " It all seems rather whimsical though "Hi Amber, how do you mean that? (probably just my English, but not sure what you mean)"
I’ve been searching for a word(s) for the past few days to describe how I find the book (it’s been rather annoying me to be honest). ‘Whimsical’ was the closest fit I could think of but it may not be the right word. I was referring to some of the ideas, such as Dorian ‘falling in love’ for a girl he saw on stage, his reaction to the painting, Henry’s views on shallowness and love, but I was looking for a word to describe the overall feel of the book created by these sort of ideas and the writing styles. I apologise if this does not make much sense, the words I want allude me.
Susy wrote: "*Amber* wrote: " It all seems rather whimsical though "Hi Amber, how do you mean that? (probably just my English, but not sure what you mean)"
I’ve been searching for a word(s) for the past few days to describe how I find the book (it’s been rather annoying me to be honest). ‘Whimsical’ was the closest fit I could think of but it may not be the right word. I was referring to some of the ideas, such as Dorian ‘falling in love’ for a girl he saw on stage, his reaction to the painting, Henry’s views on shallowness and love, but I was looking for a word to describe the overall feel of the book created by these sort of ideas and the writing styles. I apologise if this does not make much sense, the words I want allude me.
*Amber* wrote: "Susy wrote: "*Amber* wrote: " It all seems rather whimsical though "Hi Amber, how do you mean that? (probably just my English, but not sure what you mean)"
I’ve been searching for a word(s) for ..."
frivolous?
I personally love this book and the tone but I understand what you are describing. Seemingly over-the-top. I think this is in part to the time it was written in, life was shorter and in many ways harsher and people were likely to follow fancies much easier as their attentions weren't as divided as the modern age with our instant gratification (tvs, radios, computers always screaming information and distraction at us) it was simpler then so pleasures were also simpler. That being said, Oscar Wilde (even having suffered jail time simply for his sexual orientation) refused to live less than fully and without his easily distracted nature we would probably not have any of his works.
In remark to those who question whether Henry and Basil want more from Dorian than his friendship, it is likely that the author's own desires crept out here.
Sunni wrote: "*Amber* wrote: "Susy wrote: "*Amber* wrote: " It all seems rather whimsical though "Hi Amber, how do you mean that? (probably just my English, but not sure what you mean)"
I’ve been searching fo..."
Frivolous is a good description. The relationship Dorian and Sybyl have or are attempting to have seemed facetious almost to a point of foolishness. But we must remember they are young, and this parallel can be drawn with young people and relationships today. At least we can understand they are following their hearts, not their heads.
I agree with Sunni that Wilde's desires flow through Dorian and his mannerisms. I will steal one of Wilde's greatest quotes "Either that wallpaper goes, or I do."
I think Henry lives with a sense of moral, ethical and general superiority to other people. I don't think anything about him is whimsical, quite the opposite.
Sunni wrote: "frivolous?"Zachariah wrote: "Frivolous is a good description. The relationship Dorian and Sybyl have or are attempting to have seemed facetious almost to a point of foolishness."
Yes, that word works. It’s not the book itself that is frivolous of course as it has some interesting themes, but the characters (maybe not all of them) and their views and conversations certainly are.
I agree with what Zachariah has said about Henry feeling a sense of superiority and feel it explains some of his behaviour, especially his behaviour towards other people.
*Amber* wrote: "It does comes across to me that Lord Henry is majorly crushing on Dorian. What fuels this idea for me is that Lord Henry’s relationship with his wife appears to be for show on both their parts, as they don’t spend much time with each other and appear together in society every now and then. It seems that character’s appearances to the outside world is very important in this book but I think during that era and society it is set in, it was."It's been said that "Lord Henry" was just a way of Wilde writing himself into his own book. From what I know of Wilde that seems like a valid observation. I wonder if others in the book were based on people Wilde knew in real life.
*Amber* wrote: "Sunni wrote: "frivolous?"Zachariah wrote: "Frivolous is a good description. The relationship Dorian and Sybyl have or are attempting to have seemed facetious almost to a point of foolishness."
Y..."
I mean to be fair Amber I was just summarising what Sunni said so let us give credit where credit is due :D. Wilde is definitely someone I would want at my dinner parties.
Zachariah wrote: "Wilde is definitely someone I would want at my dinner parties."That's a great observation. I bet he was hilarious in social settings.
Just hit chapter 5... its taking me a long time to read this cuz I keep avoiding it lol. Its very different from what I usually read, interesting but kinda boring at the same time.
Sunni wrote: "Susy wrote: "Greg wrote: "As for the book's tempo and the ideas put forth, as some here have stated, one must remember that this book was written 128 ears ago when attitudes and beliefs were very d..."When I read this last year I thought the same thing Sunni.
I found an interesting website for this read if anyone is interested it has a flashcard game which is pretty neat.https://quizlet.com/135314962/flashcards
I just finished the 5 chapter today, for me the start is very slow, but the story achieve velocity when (view spoiler). In my opinion Henry treats dorian like a toy, and all the conversations he has in the story are to manipulate people or to show people how intelligent he is and how moral gray is their society. I hope, he will have problems due to his Dorian's manipulation.
I like Wildes prose, but must say it is giving me some difficulties, partly because English is not my native language and partly because the circumstances in which I read (on a crowded tram, in bed after a long and tiring workday, ...) are not really ideal for focusing on the longer and more complicated sentences. Some passages have had to be reread a few times to be first understood and then appreciated. I am thinking it would be better to read this when I can devote more true 'at ease' time to it. But I do want to push on because I want to discuss it with you here... I think some of the dialogue is drawn out a bit too much and a lot of it tends to be more of a monologue by Lord Henry than a real conversation. The others are just there to highlight certain points by drawing extra attention to them with their interjections. That was logical in the first chapter as Basil and Dorian were actually busy painting and posing, but started to annoy me a bit later on.
I'm also not really getting in to the story, but I'm quite sure that is just because it hasn't really got going yet, we're just getting acquainted to the characters involved and their relationship towards each other. So this is my first impression of them:
Dorian Gray: young, naive, open to influence. I think he likes Basil mostly because of how Basil adores him, and he is very impressed by Harry because of his extravagant, non-conformist views and how he's not afraid to express them. I don't really get an impression of his personality apart from the feeling he is quite self-centered. So far, he feels shallow, but, with him being so young and the namesake of the book, I expect to see a lot of character growth (trying to not get influenced by what I already know from this story from mentions in common culture).
Basil Hallward: artist, sensitive, good guy. He adores Dorian, but that seems to have to do mainly with his perfect looks. To me, that also makes him a bit shallow, not really looking beyond the young mans surface. I don't really see why he's friends with Harry. He doesn't seem to agree with him on most points. Actually, I feel he's mostly there in the book to offset Lord Henry's views, to be the conformists' voice. (I would love to read more on other peoples opinions about the relationship between these two men). As it is, I don't dislike him, but I don't really find him very interesting either.
Lord Harry Henry: rich, arrogant, self-centered. The only character so far I find really interesting, even if I don't like him very much. Of course, so far he's the only one that has expressed a lot of his views and feelings. I can relate to some of his views, especially when he talks about living life to the fullest and experiencing and feeling as much as possible. At other times though, I don't relate at all. Overall, it is because of his selfishness and disregard for others that I don't like him. Still, his interest in the human psyche and his intention to experiment on Dorian are what are what is making me read on at this time.
Sybil Vane: beautiful, naive, and again, shallow. I do not like Sybil at all. She's all shell and no content, as far as I can see. As such, she's a bit like Dorian himself. I'm getting the feeling she's getting set up to be walked over and trampled on, and I'm afraid I won't even really feel bad for her...
Kristin wrote: "After many failed attempts to get through Chapter 1 on e-book, I decided to borrow a paperback from my local library. So glad I did, because I am enjoying this book much more now. Happy for you Kristin!
Do you know what makes you enjoy it more?
So far I've read the Preface - Chapter 2 and part of Chapter 3. The conversation between Basil, Lord Henry, & Dorian in Chapter 1 felt very biblical (Book of Genesis) to me. Did anyone else have this impression? The garden brings to mind Eden, with Basil the creator being God, Dorian being his muse/creation Adam, and Lord Henry being the serpent/Satan. As the serpent in the Book of Genesis leads Adam & Eve to the tree of knowledge and begins both their awakening and fall from innocence, Lord Henry's influence moves Dorian from being a beautiful and innocent but empty-headed individual to someone with self-awareness and the pain that can cause.
Didn't think of that, but you are absolutely right!! (had thought of Henry as the devil though...)
It also felt Freudian, with Basil being the superego, Lord Henry being the id, and Dorian (after his "awakening") being the ego. Interestingly, the psyche is made of all these parts, and thus, Basil, Harry, and Dorian can be thought of as parts of the same being and perhaps their interactions represent the internal conversations and battles we all face when confronting the world. By separating them into separate entities, we can explore how we would act if we indulged just one aspect of our psyche.
But then in this case I find the id much stronger than the superego, so what will that mean for the ego?
Then again, Wilde does tell us to not over-analyze art and that art is a reflection of the observer, so not sure what this says about me, haha.
Good point ;P I think it means you're an observant (and calm?) person?
I hadn't analyzed it that deeply (even though I am a psychologist so Freud should have entered my mind lol, but then again, I'm reading all my fiction to forget about all the work related stress...so I guess I'm doing a good job???).
I look forward to seeing if these initial observations hold true throughout the book, or if upon further reading, it was all a bunch of rubbish and I should have listened to Wilde all along :-)
No comment... (I already finished so...)
Other thoughts:
*Lord Henry is an unlikable but interesting character. He instigates chaos and drama. I find myself aggravated by him, but at the same time, sometimes this is what is needed for change and growth to happen.
Nope, not this kind of change and "growth" lol
Additionally, not having someone or something to play this role makes for a very dull story. We need antagonists as much as we need protagonists.
That is true. It's like in a movie, if I really come to dislike the character, with all my heart, that means the actor is a good actor. Same here, I think Wilde did an excellent job (if it was intended like that; I've read somewhere that it's actually a bit of a description of his own character...)
* The concept and reality of losing beauty causing pain is, sadly, something to which I can relate. While I wish it were not true, I can be and have been vain, and it is difficult when one's beauty is mixed up with one's identity. When one's body changes drastically, for whatever reason, one gains a new understanding of how society judges and responds to different body types. That said, I would not sell my soul for beauty, and would rather have knowledge and ethics than beauty (even if it causes wrinkles and will one day make me look "hideous," haha. "
Well, it's a bit like the scare you get when you discover your first gray hairs!! And hitting 40. Gaining weight much more easily. Less energy. Wrinkles starting. etc. And everywhere you look, it's always about beauty: magazines, models, remarks about whether an actress is beautiful or not, remarks about someone getting old, stares and glares when a person is overweight or has any kind of disfiguration. Everybody always says it's all about the inner beauty, but in the real world out there, it's proven otherwise.
Kristin wrote: "What type of psychologist are you?."I’m a child psychologist :)
I’ve wanted to read something by Oscar Wilde since we saw his very interesting grave last summer at Père Lachaise in Paris. I blew through the first two chapters rather quickly and had to go back and reread them. I've been reading too much fluff recently, I think. I may have read this book back in college (definitely not high school) because it feels familiar to me and I don't think that it's the references I've seen in pop culture. I have a terrible time picking out the ideas that I am supposed to walk away from pieces of literature like this. I wish that I had bought an annotated version but I guess I "cheated" by reading through the online cliff notes for the book at the end of each chapter to see what ideas/themes that I've missed. Funny how I see some of it in retrospect I just don't pick it out for myself.So far, Dorian strikes me as the typical young man coming of age who has everything going for him but has yet to experience life yet, so exuberant and excited "he cries..." seems to be the phrase that sticks out to me the most with him.
Henry, oh dear, I don't like him that much. He reminds me of that pompous windbag that I seem to get cornered by at parties and need help extricating myself from the situation while he prattles on and on about something that I have no idea about or don't care. I'm afraid I'm not enjoying his rhetoric very much.
Basil, I'm not really sure about. I don't get much from him except the feeling of jealousy that he seems to have first over Lord Henry's relationship with Dorian then over Sybil.
I do find it ironic (?) that the basic idea behind aestheticism is to appreciate art for art's sake rather than look for deeper meaning and here I am...looking for deeper meaning in every word that I read in this book.
Kristy wrote: "I’ve wanted to read something by Oscar Wilde since we saw his very interesting grave last summer at Père Lachaise in Paris. I blew through the first two chapters rather quickly and had to go back and reread them. I've been reading too much fluff recently, I think. I may have read this book back in college (definitely not high school) because it feels familiar to me and I don't think that it's the references I've seen in pop culture. I have a terrible time picking out the ideas that I am supposed to walk away from pieces of literature like this. I wish that I had bought an annotated version but I guess I "cheated" by reading through the online cliff notes for the book at the end of each chapter to see what ideas/themes that I've missed. Funny how I see some of it in retrospect I just don't pick it out for myself.Me neither, I don't like to have to search for a deeper meaning. just say what you mean. That's why I really don't like poetry.
So far, Dorian strikes me as the typical young man coming of age who has everything going for him but has yet to experience life yet, so exuberant and excited "he cries..." seems to be the phrase that sticks out to me the most with him.
He will experience life, but in what way, that's the question....
Henry, oh dear, I don't like him that much. He reminds me of that pompous windbag that I seem to get cornered by at parties and need help extricating myself from the situation while he prattles on and on about something that I have no idea about or don't care. I'm afraid I'm not enjoying his rhetoric very much.
Lol, know what you mean!
Basil, I'm not really sure about. I don't get much from him except the feeling of jealousy that he seems to have first over Lord Henry's relationship with Dorian then over Sybil.
I came to believe that he really did care for Dorian...
I do find it ironic (?) that the basic idea behind aestheticism is to appreciate art for art's sake rather than look for deeper meaning and here I am...looking for deeper meaning in every word that I read in this book. "
Lol
I just finished chapter 5. It's hard for me to follow at times but I do enjoy the conversations between Dorian, Basil and Lord Henry (especially the part about beauty and aging).
I've read the first 6 chapters. I really enjoy the prose and I love all of the quotes that can pulled out of this book. I knew nothing about this book before it was a group read so it is fun to discover. I like the banter of the characters. I even like Dorian's love interest that was introduced. I'm curious to see where that goes.I'm going to do a little research on Wilde before I get back to the book.
Joan wrote: "I'm going to do a little research..."I did too:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
no, his books arent exciting nor is there a lot of action. the charm is in the language and in the observations of human nature and the society of the time.