"The Once And Future King" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I finally re-started Queen of Air and Darkness, and I just love it so much.

(view spoiler)[The study and description of various attachment disorders, of attachment/avoidance behavior and its long term impact on people started--STARTED!!-- the same year this book was published. White had basically figured it out before it was even a serious part of psychology. That astounds me. I think a lot of people with abusive or dismissive parents can find a lot to connect with in the Orkney boys, and their metaphorical and literal loss of innocence.

But at the same time we see how Morgause was created in a den of snakes, the history of hurt on a person mingled with a culture that encourages negative social behavior.

And it's still so gloriously dark and fascinating it doesn't even feel like a lesson in pyschology! (hide spoiler)]

I have not yet read Book of Merlyn, but I'd like to!

[Cheryl]

Oh, literature has always been ahead of the shrinks. I mean, it's great that science can measure and quantify, etc., but good books, since before the Greek Myths, delve deeper into our 'Psyche' than even Jung could....

[Cheryl]

Brenda wrote: "No one has reprinted THE WITCH IN THE WOOD or THE ILL-MADE KNIGHT, probably for good reason. White's great weakness as a writer was digression; he'd wander off into the distance and not come back t..."

Not all of see this as a bad thing. I argue that when the so-called 'extraneities' were trimmed, so was much of the delight.

[Ashley in Wonderland]

Allison wrote: "I finally re-started Queen of Air and Darkness, and I just love it so much.

The study and description of various attachment disorders, of attachment/avoidance behavior and its long term impact on ..."

I’ve been thinking T. H. White must’ve been a psychologist in a past life. I’m enjoying the story and the lessons! Gives me lots to mull over.

Oh, and I definitely want to read The Book of Merlyn!

[Ashley in Wonderland]

Any of you still reading this with me?

I’ve finally made it to The Ill-Made Knight, and I’m so excited to read about Lancelot and Guenever. The Queen of Air & Darkness was good, but not as good as The Sword in the Stone and much more disturbing (view spoiler)[(the poor cat, the poor unicorn, those poor Orkney children, and poor Arthur being seduced by his sister..) (hide spoiler)]

On a lighter note, I just love the Questing Beast. :D

[Beth]

I finished reading this last month, I think I like The Sword in the Stone + The Candle in the Wind best overall.

My favorite character is Arthur, but my favorite secondary character is probably Gawain.

[AndrewP]

I'm at page 400 out of 600 and something.

[Francisca]

I also finished at the beginning of January, and agree with Beth's ranking. I did like The Ill-Made Knight, but (view spoiler)[ the will-they, won't they (SEVERAL TIMES) of the love triangle got tiresome at some point. I did really like the Grail sequence - and seeing the development of Arthur's understanding of humans. Also the last chapter, linking Mallory, was pure brilliance. (hide spoiler)]

Agreed: the Questing Beast is the best. Also, I really like how the little side jokes and commentary help lighten the at times rather heaviness of events.

[Ashley in Wonderland]

I’m really taking my time with this one, to kind of slowly soak it all in. (Plus I’m over doing it on how many books I’m reading at once). And I’m really not good at gathering my thoughts and thus contributing much to these conversations, but I’m trying.

There are SO MANY lines and paragraphs that I want to tear out, blow up, and paste on my walls, or tattoo onto my body, or something! So much wisdom and just beautiful prose.

“for love can exist with hatred, each preying on the other, and this is what gives it its greatest fury.”

Also, this one hurt my heart: “It is so fatally easy to make young children believe that they are horrible.” :(

I just love ALL these characters. But especially Arthur and Merlyn. “He (Arthur) was only a simple and affectionate man, because Merlyn had believed that love and simplicity were worth having.”

[[deleted user]]

Francisca wrote: "I also finished at the beginning of January, and agree with Beth's ranking. I did like The Ill-Made Knight, but [spoilers removed]

Agreed: the Questing Beast is the best. Also, I really like how ..."

indeed this is a book worth taking the time to let averything sink in

[Ashley in Wonderland]

I finished about a week and a half ago. The Sword in the Stone was my favorite, followed by The Ill-Made Knight. The ending of Candle in the Wind was very touching. I feel so sorry for Arthur. Although I loved Lancelot for his bravery and chivalry, I grew pretty tired of him and Guen by the end. The whole they’re happy together, then they have an argument, Guen pushes him away, he leaves, has adventures, they miss each other, he comes back, they’re happy again, they get into another argument, repeat, repeat, got a little old (except for the having adventures parts). All while Arthur was pretending not to know anything, which depressed me. I just wanted them to make a damn decision and stick with it. The Orkney boys never failed to provide lots of tension and drama, which for me was much needed, especially in Ill-Made Knight to balance out the nauseating love story. Overall I’m so glad I read this and didn’t put it off any longer. I have a feeling it will become one of my favorite fantasy books of all time, and I’d love to read it again some day. Maybe even listen to an audiobook.

[Brenda]

What's impressive about the work is how, upon a purely medieval and Malory structure, White was able to overlay an entire fantabulous theme about governance and power. Since this was written over the period in the 20th century of great convulsion and war, you can see why this was his focus. It's not something that the original material had; in Malory's day there was no question that there was going to be war and the only issue was whether you could win it.
It's as if White found this old car that nobody much drove any more, a 1960 Rambler Nash or something, and retooled the engine, added rocket boosters, and suddenly got it up into low Earth orbit.

[Michele]

Brenda wrote: "It's as if White found this old car that nobody much drove any more, a 1960 Rambler Nash or something, and retooled the engine, added rocket boosters, and suddenly got it up into low Earth orbit. "

Brenda, that's brilliant! :D

[Michele]

Ashley wrote: "There are SO MANY lines and paragraphs that I want to tear out, blow up, and paste on my walls, or tattoo onto my body, or something! So much wisdom and just beautiful prose."

I agree. I love this one:

“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something. That's the only thing that never fails. You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at night listening to the disorder of your veins, you may miss your only love, you may see the world about you devastated by evil lunatics, or know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser minds. There is only one thing for it then — to learn. Learn why the world wags and what wags it. That is the only thing which the mind can never exhaust, never alienate, never be tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never dream of regretting.”

One of my favorite artists has put this on a card.

[ALLEN]

Ashley wrote: "I’m three chapters into book 2, and I’m in love with Merlyn’s wisdom. Have any of you read The Book of Merlyn and if so, what is it like?"

Thanks, Ashley. I'd love to know that, too, since it was the potential "part five' of the OaFK tetralogy that didn't make it into the bound volume.

[Travis]

Just a reminder that another buddy read of this book begins Tuesday!

Here's an Ursula Le Guin blurb to get the juices going!

"A fierce and damaged man, T. H. White wrote about fierce and damaged people-and children, and animals-with a brilliant, painful innocence that has no equal in literature. He is so good at hurt and shame-how did he also manage to be so funny? I have laughed at his great Arthurian novel and cried over it and loved it all my life."

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I am just going to be an inspired puddle over here, trying to find matching socks and words to express how happy it makes me that she felt like I do.

[Gabi]

Oh damn... This one I wanted to read as well. No idea how I squeeze this in my already overcommited reading schedule ^^'.

[Meredith]

I'll be joining in too. That's a great quote by Le Guin.

[Anna]

I'm considering listening to this on audiobook, since it's available to me on Storytel. But it looks like it would possibly be a very different story from the four-book omnibus? They are Naxos audios narrated by Neville Jason, with books 2&3 and 4&5 combined. So three audiobooks that cover books 1-5.

The Sword in the Stone
The Witch in the Wood/The Ill-Made Knight
The Candle in the Wind/The Book of Merlyn

Does anyone know if these audiobooks correspond to the individual books 1-5? Is there an audiobook of the omnibus*? I can only see these same ones on Audible.

* collecting books 1-4, I do see one for books 1-5, looks like it's these same ones bundled into a five-book audio omnibus

[ALLEN]

Anna wrote: "I'm considering listening to this on audiobook, since it's available to me on Storytel. But it looks like it would possibly be a very different story from the four-book omnibus? They are Naxos audi..."

THE BOOK OF MERLYN, book five of THE ONCE AND FUTURE KING, is not included in this volume:
.

My understanding is that in print (in the USA, anyway), THE BOOK OF MERLYN must be purchased separately.

[Gabi]

Anna wrote: "I'm considering listening to this on audiobook, since it's available to me on Storytel. But it looks like it would possibly be a very different story from the four-book omnibus? They are Naxos audi..."

Yup, there is an Omnibus from Naxos, I'm just listening to it. And Neville Jason is a snobbish dream! I'm enjoying his voice so much!

[Anna]

I think I just found the answer to my question in this review. In short, the Naxos audio is a completely different beast from all other editions. Most importantly, book 1 is different, since some of it is now in book 5. It probably makes more sense to someone who has already read it.

And it looks like there isn't an audiobook of the omnibus that most people are likely reading? The one that's linked in this thread.

[Gabi]

Audible only gives me the 5-book version as audiobook.

[Anna]

Me too, but it's always possible there are several other editions that are just not available in Europe.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Oh my God, one reviewer says there are 2 scenes from the first book, Sword In the Stone, are not in the audiobook. These two scenes are two of my favorite. Please let me know if this is true. They involve geese and ants. I hear they've been moved to Book of Merlyn which makes me nervous.

[Anna]

Yeah that review explained it pretty well, at least I think I understand the difference. I wanted an audio of the edition most people are reading or have read, and it looks like this is not it. I'll have to think about maybe eye-reading instead.

[ALLEN]

I've heard that the "ants" passage with its robotic behavior and "Mammy songs" was removed after WWII because it was such an obvious allegory of fascism and thought either anachronistic or frightening to little kids. Pity -- it's one of my favorites, too. It is definitely in the paperback USA version.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'm listening to this now on audiobook, starting with The Witch in the Wood. It always gets me, just such a stripped down, heartwrenching look at these boys.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Err heads up, I've just remembered how much gruesome stuff with animals there are in Witch in the Wood. Watch out, my animal lover friends! Happy to give more details if you need.

[Travis]

Through chapter 16, though more general impressions than discussion of plot:

(view spoiler)[I had a pretty good idea that I would really love this novel, but I'm surprised by why I really love it.

Typically I sort of hate it when writers try to be funny, but the humor here gives me such joy! Part of it may be the punching up at the follies of aristorcacy; part too the dryness of a more English (P.G. Wodehouse maybe?) style of humor. It's fantastic.

I also completely didn't expect (a) all the anachronisms and (b) the ingenious way (Merlin's reverse chronological way of experiencing the world) that it explains them. What other novels deploy anachronism to such delightful effect?

And, of course, I really love the humanity here. Yes, Kay is something of a spoiled brat, but he's isn't a baddie and we never forget why it is that Wart loves him.

Finally, I wasn't expecting such an episodic tale, shifting from one set piece to the other. The slower pacing of this mode of storytelling is exactly how I most enjoy easing into a new world.

One more thing: I'm really curious going forward to think about these texts in relation to WWI and WWII. As far as I can tell, they were written both between the two wars and then at the beginning of the second one. I would love to read more about how those experiences enter into how White tells this tale... (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Travis, I'm so glad you're enjoying it!

Spoilers in response to Travis (up to Ch 16)

(view spoiler)[ I think, too, the humor works because when it's not being used to show the folly as you point out, it's used to show closeness and kindness. To me, Merlyn and Wart or Archimedes having their ridiculous conversations feels a little bit like the humor of hearing only a tidbit of a very earnest conversation that out of context is funny. As an example, the opening scene of Grummore and Ector talking about eddication. We get they're drunk and yet still both listening to each other, behaving as good friends and invested caretakers of the kids. What could be offputting and silly if it was self-conscious feels instead like a quick summary of a life long friendship and the struggles of parenting when you want better for your kids but don't know quite what that looks like.

Merlyn getting confused about when he is and what's happened so far is one of my favorite bits!

I really think the humanity and the war elements go hand in hand. TH White was abused and neglected as a child and then came into his majority during the most heinous war the world has ever seen. He never had a love interest to anyone's knowledge, the reasons of which are guessed at, and because of all this was fairly withdrawn--the world he saw was cruel and the people in it were trying desperately to live righteous lives that had been shaped by that cruelty. He is said to have been a terrific friend, the sort who could hear what wasn't said and who provided unfailing support, but never knew how to accept it himself.

I think that's what I love about the story most, that he doesn't excuse or glorify cruelty, but he also can't pretend it isn't happening or that it doesn't have a reason it's happening, albeit a sad one.

Also, for added interest, all of the little bits of poetry before each book are snippets from war poetry. My favorite is the bit from Sassoon's The Everyman, but that's much later. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Allison wrote: "Travis, I'm so glad you're enjoying it!

Spoilers in response to Travis (up to Ch 16)
"

That is amazing context. Thank you! Have you read Regeneration? Pat Barker's fictionalized Sassoon is an all-time favorite character of mine.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

No! On the list it goes!

[Gabi]

I'm quite grateful for your discussions here, cause I have the feeling one really needs to have some background information for a proper appreciation of the book. I find myself drifting away constantly, although I really love the voice of the narrator of the audiobook.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Are you still in Sword in the Stone, Gabi? I am wondering if later books might be a bit more to your taste--it gets less silly as it goes on.

[Gabi]

I'm not so sure … The index on my audiobook just counts the chapters through. I hope there will be an announcement when the next book starts. So far there was no mention of a sword or a stone, so I guess this is still the first book (the last chapter was a boar hunt)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yep! Still Sword in the Stone :)

[Travis]

Gabi wrote: "I'm not so sure … The index on my audiobook just counts the chapters through. I hope there will be an announcement when the next book starts. So far there was no mention of a sword or a stone, so I..."

Two more chapters until the end of Sword in the Stone. Then you get to the book that seems to be alternately titled The Queen of Air and Darkness or The Witch in the Wood.

[Gabi]

The Witch in the Wood is indeed less silly. Now I'm depressed … ^^'

[Anna]

Gabi wrote: "The Witch in the Wood is indeed less silly. Now I'm depressed … ^^'"

Oh no, I looked at your latest status update, and combined with Allison's warning, I don't know if I can read this :/

[Gabi]

Anna wrote: "Gabi wrote: "The Witch in the Wood is indeed less silly. Now I'm depressed … ^^'"

Oh no, I looked at your latest status update, and combined with Allison's warning, I don't know if I can read this :/"

It's hard. There were two scenes so far that are not easily to digest if you care for animals. I just keep telling myself that they are there to underline the non-caring of humans, but I must admit that my good mood from this morning is already retreating.

[Anna]

Thanks, it's good to know these things before going in. I think I'll start looking for something else to read from the 1930s.

[Gabi]

Anna wrote: "Thanks, it's good to know these things before going in. I think I'll start looking for something else to read from the 1930s."

If you are reading the first book for 1930ies there's no problem. Those scenes are in the second book.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

The second book is brutal, and the three acts of animal cruelty are part of a metaphor for how those who are hurt continue a cycle of hurt, and the seeds of cruelty planted in children bear fruit of hatred in adults.

It still is very hard to listen to. Courage, Gabi! There are a few moments of lightness ahead.

[Anna]

No I was going to read the whole thing. I just picked Mary Poppins as my alternate :D

[Meredith]

I just found out about this movie this week. Opening Jan 25 (US): The Boy Who Would Be King. "The plot follows a young boy who finds King Arthur's legendary sword Excalibur, and must stop an ancient enchantress from destroying the world."

Patrick Stewart is Merlin (be still my heart).

[ALLEN]

My goodness! I'm so glad you told us about it.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'm very worried about it. But that's usual for me. I hope it's perfect!

[Gabi]

I can't help myself, but this book really does a good job to let every knight of the round table look like a squabbling idiot. ;)