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Archive 08-19 GR Discussions
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Our first 2018 Group Read "The Lathe of Heaven"
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Although it hasn't been said (or I missed it), cars seem to be a thing of the past. George rides subways and walks. Making slanted offices out of carparks is an interesting idea. Imagine working in a slanted office. :D
Nice analogy, Juliette. It is a conversion similar to warehouses-to-apartments.
I am just going to say that science fiction is not my genre. I am on Chapter 3 and enjoying the story so far. So far, I think Dr. Haber is trying to be helpful (or thinks he is). I like how George planted the seed of doubt about the mural, as well.
Nancy, I'm glad you joined in the read, especially if sci-fi isn't your genre. It's even better to hear that you're enjoying the story. So far, I'm not finding it very sci-fi-ish. It's more futuristic, I think. In my head, I associate sci-fi with robots and other planets. :D
I have found science fiction to be more along the lines of future scientific or technological advances. I think the book would qualify there. At least, when we teach our students about different reading genres this encompasses science fiction. Often we think of space and life on other planets but it is wider than that. And this book won a Nebula Award which is for science fiction.
Nancy (Colorado) wrote: "I am just going to say that science fiction is not my genre. I am on Chapter 3 and enjoying the story so far. So far, I think Dr. Haber is trying to be helpful (or thinks he is). I like how George ..."I am very particular when I read science fiction.
I am particular about everything. Too many good books out there so I give myself permission to abandon ones that do not engage me as a reader! 😊
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "Parking must not be an issue in that world."Not too many people had cars, apparently. I found it intriguing that there was so much travel under The Columbia River. It’s not exactly the Hudson. I grew up in NJ and lived in the PNW, so I had to chuckle a bit about traveling under the Columbia.
I finished the book. It is so short that I could not justify dragging out the reading. I will try not to say anything that refers to reading beyond the schedule. I can see why George feels as if he is crazy. How can a person make sense of dreams changing reality. And, since no one else is aware of the alterations in reality, he can not talk about his perceptions with anyone. He is totally alone, confused, disoriented. Haber's arrogance is introduced from the outset.
I am loving the Lathe. Close to done. Makes me think of Dark Matter and (oh I’m forgetting... must have read in another version of my life). I enjoy discussions about whether we SHOULD do things, just because we CAN.
I agree about Haber’s arrogance. I’m not certain but sometimes he might have some good intentions but there is the desire for glory and the belief that he(Haber) is something special.
I enjoy George. Do people believe he is strong or weak? I think he might present as weak but isn’t really. He must have had strength to survive what has happened in the world. And he was isolated in his knowledge. I’m not sure why he keeps going back to Haber.
I think George feels trapped at this point but I would also agree that he shows strength. He went to a lawyer to attempt to stop the treatments and he has survived the plaque and all that entailed.
Up to the end of Chapter 6:There's a similarity between George & Dr. Haber and the jellyfish in the ocean at the beginning of Chapter 1:
The ocean buffets the jellyfish in all directions; the jellyfish has no control over the direction it travels.
Dr. Haber buffets George in any direction he wishes; George has no control over where Dr. Haber is taking him.
Dr. Haber thinks Humans have a purpose in life; George thinks there is no purpose, that we "just are".
What do you think? Purpose or "Are"?
Dr. Haber's thought: "...spoil the experiment completely, wreck his plans"
Kind of scary. One man has plans for not only all of humanity but the entire world.
Whether one man wants to do good or evil, should one person have that much control? "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"
Or road to hell is paved in good intentions. I would like to believe we have a purpose which is to help each other have the best life and to work together. But I’ve noticed that people who approach life as « we just are », tend to live more on the moment and are more happy.
The part about the woman being saved and she might harm others after being saved was very meaningful for me. We can’t know what the future will bring. And that is part of the intrigue of George’s dreams that he still can’t know exactly what will happen. Haber thinks it’s because George is an inferior human but I think it is simply the way the universe works.
Each moment of life can bring about multiple changes, depending on the choice made at that particular moment. Most choices don't matter and lead to the same future. For example, will I wear the red blouse or the blue blouse today? There are two forks here for my future. On one day I wear the red blouse and on the same day, on the other fork, I wear the blue blouse. Either way, my day goes on and I go to bed that night and a blouse is in the laundry. Nothing has changed because of that decision and my future converges again at bedtime and my tomorrow is the same.
Some decisions would cause forks in our futures with no convergence at the end. Do I stick to the speed limit and be late for work (and arrive safely) or do I speed up to get to work on time, have a horrible accident and end up in the hospital (or worse)? That decision could change my future (or end it). At the end of that day, my future does not converge and my tomorrows are different.
Even small decisions can change our future.
The example of a woman being saved, who then does harm to others is an age-old conundrum. If we knew the future, would we save the woman? Would that be playing God? Or would that be saving humanity?
I agree, Jennifer, that we should all work together to have the best life we can in harmony. Is that "purpose"? Or "in the moment"? In the moment we work together, which makes the group happy. For the purpose of harmony, we work together, which makes the group happy. Philosophy!!!! It's always made my head hurt.
But it's all just words, isn't it? Working together, whether purpose or moment, makes for happier groups.
Ursela Le Guin is a philosophical writer. There's a lot to think about in this little book.
Haber takes the imperative to human decency to the ultimate level. Of course, if someone is in need and you can assist, you assist. As humans, we can not know the future. So, the question about helping the woman with the snake bite is hypothetical. The woman can go on to kill her child or find the cure for cancer. The problem with Haber is that he thinks he knows what is best for all of humanity. Even when his experiment turns out differently than he anticipates, even when he realizes that his solutions cause others suffering, he remains committed to his plan. Of course, no one he knows and loves is ever shown as being harmed by his actions. If they were, would he see things differently? Every megalomaniac regarded the sacrifice of some people to his policies as the price of advancement. As long as Haber has to work through George's dreams, there is some check on his power. Maybe community is essential to keeping each of our crazy ideas in check.
That's the crux of the woman in the forest story. We, as humans, would help someone if we could. It's the rare being who wouldn't. We cannot play God with a thought of "what if this person does harm after being saved?". Or with the opposite thought of "what if I do harm by not saving her and cancer is not cured?". That woman has her own destiny to follow.
As humans, at that point of decision of meeting the woman in the forest, our destiny is whether to help or not....and I believe we would.
Up to Chapter 9:
The aliens recognize something in George. This could be because they are a figment of his subconscious. He/They may be connected in some miniscule fashion.
I don't like how the world is becoming so homogenous. There's no individuality, no differences, no variety. It's slowly becoming much too identical
Dr. Haber is becoming quite the egomaniac.
Petra wrote: "Each moment of life can bring about multiple changes, depending on the choice made at that particular moment. Most choices don't matter and lead to the same future »
Petra that makes me think of
another book that I loved.
Irene wrote: "Haber takes the imperative to human decency to the ultimate level. Of course, if someone is in need and you can assist, you assist. As humans, we can not know the future. So, the question about hel..."Oh how I love this book and this discussion. I had a mentor tell me to question everything I read (she was talking about scientific journals) and question things that support your point of view even more. But oh how I enjoy reading for pleasure and hearing this debate. It brings me back to one of my fears about modern science, and especially the separation of scient and philosophy - - - Just because we can do something (science) doesn’t mean we should do something (philosophy).
Jennifer I agree. I think we have divorced science/technology from ethics and it is to our own peril.
Thanks, Jennifer! I'm going to have a look for Dark Matter. I finished the book last night. That last bit was real trippy.
I'm enjoying the discussion as well. For a shorter book, this touches on many moral issues. I agree that just because we can do something doesn't mean that we should. There are moral obligations to consider and they should trump.
I did get a laugh out of The Beatles' song being the catalyst to finding peace and strength. On the other hand, don't friends give one peace & strength to enjoy life, face life, endure life, etc.
In it's way, this is a very "hippy" era book. I enjoyed it.
I read "Dark Matter" and that was really good.
I was not a fan of Dark Matter. I thought this one was much better executed.
Interesting..... varied opinions of people who's opinion I respect ups the book for me. Something in this book is divisive. Irene, I'm glad this book is being enjoyed. I'm always a bit trepid at nominating a book for the group read. It's always a book I haven't read, so have no idea if it's good or not or worth the nomination.
I'm glad to have read this book. It's been on my ereader since 2015. The author is one that occasionally pops up throughout GR and almost always in a positive way but I'd never read any of her books.
When I read Lathe of Heaven, I didn't feel it was that scifi. Probably because it was written in the 70's.
I haven't read anything by LeGuin either prior to this book, probably because she is associated with science fiction, a genre I don't usually like. But, this was thought provoking.
I finished The Lathe of Heaven last night - I hope that what I am about to say will not spoil it for anyone else who is still reading...I felt that it became quite sad in the end, Dr Haber used George's dreams to create a world that he felt would be 'perfect' but in the end destroyed not only the world they lived in and many peoples lives (although these people didn't know it), but he destroyed himself too.
George lost the Heather that he had bonded with in the cabin, but hopefully the new Heather will become a good companion to him - I think the alien thought that too as they walked off into the mist.
Even though this world had become quite strange with roads ending in buildings and the waterways starting and stopping. I liked the way the people had been able to create a way to live in it, alongside it. I felt that LeGuin was saying even when we our worlds seem to fall apart, we will find a way to pick up the pieces and move forward creating a better way for all.
I am not a sci-fi reader at all, but I think that I will be more inclined to pick up a sci-fi book from now on, this book has made me see that this genre can also make you look at life through a different lens.
Thank you Petra for suggesting this book - I really enjoyed it.
Juliette, I'm so glad you enjoyed the book.I, too, thought it was uplifting to read that no matter what was done to our reality, we continued and found our way.
Sci-Fi is a tricky genre. It has so many different varieties and not all of them resonate with me. I don't, for example, usually like the type with robots in them as characters. I do like interplanetary travel but not of the sort that focuses around war-type activity (battling to get possession of the planet).
I'm glad you found a sci-fi direction that you enjoy.
Thanks Petra I will look out for that type of SciFi but agree with you, don’t mind the robots on TV but not really in a book.Saw a book that was given a good rating on GR - All Our Wrong Today’s - I have added it to my TBR - am going to see if I can get it in the next month or two.
On a different note - please let me know when I can start my reading plan for Before We Were Yours. Mine is also on my Kindle so I tried to work out the chapters like Petra did.
The author of this book died today at the age of 88.
Mod
https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/23/us/urs...
I'm shocked and sad to hear/read this! It's a lovely, surprise tribute that we're reading and enjoying her book at this time.
She sounds like quite the cracker. I think I would have liked her. I like people who speak their minds. One knows where one stands with people like that.
She was one of the first women authors to write science fiction. Right up there or (if you prefer) write up there with Anne McCaffrey :)
Finished it more than a week ago. Science fiction is not really my favourite genre either. This was my first LeGuin and I was impressed.
The grey zone morality of characters fascinated me.
The grey zone morality of characters fascinated me.
Kt, the strength of this story was that grey zone of morality. I agree. I'm glad you joined in this read, especially since it's not your favorite genre. That takes commitment.
This story didn't really read as sci-fi; more fantasy, perhaps. I have a hard time with genres at times. They kind of overlap and get muddy. :D
There seems to be a lot of discussion about the classification of sci-fi. Brave New World, The Handmaid's Tale, 1984, Ender's Gameare other classics that have similarities for me. Yes he does create a changing world but the book is more about the philosophy of things and that is what all of these books do for me. I enjoy this kind of book as I love to have my thinking challenged in a non-conformational way. That is what I think good science fiction is about. It’s about helping us question our own world by taking the question a step out of our reality.Ps thanks gang. This has been my favourite book discussion in ages.
Petra wrote: "Kt, the strength of this story was that grey zone of morality. I agree. I'm glad you joined in this read, especially since it's not your favorite genre. That takes commitment.
This story didn't ..."
Fantasy/sci fi genre gets blurred alot. Personally, I see them as separate genres.
Mod
Sheila, for a little book, this does give us a lot to think about. Here is a tribute to Ursula Le Guin written by Margaret Atwood:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...
So what do people think the message of the book was? Was Haber's "sin" that of arrogance, believing he knew how things should turn out? If so, aren't we all Haber to some extent? If we could go back in time and change things, prevent Hitler from coming to power for example, which one of us would not do it to save millions of innocent people? Or if we could alter the present, an easy and certain cure for cancer for example, which one of us would not make it happen? Isn't that what science and technology as well as those who send troops into areas to stop aggressive forces or human rights violations do all the time? Is that wrong? Was Haber's "sin" the terrible outcomes of what he did, the realization that suddenly millions of people had lives cut short in the past by plague or other disaster? If his outcomes were good, would he seem so awful? In that case, do we all become paralyzed because we can never know the outcome of what we do? Or was this book about something other than morality such as a question about reality?
Perhaps it's something as simple as we cannot/should not play God. We do the best we can with what we have and live with those consequences. If we could go back and prevent Hitler, we would. But doing so, we potentially let a person live who would be as evil as Hitler. That said, this is a situation of hind-sight, and we can't go back. We have to accept what happened (and hopefully learn from it).
If we could cure cancer, we would. But in doing so, we may save a person who would be as evil as Hitler. But we would still do it because maybe this wouldn't happen and wonderful people, some of whom may benefit humanity by so much, could be saved.
Haber's sin was, I think, in doing it all by himself, without consultation and in secrecy. If the dreams had worked to Haber's exact specifications, it would have become his world. What if the majority of people wouldn't agree with his changes had they been included? They have to live in the world, too. Shouldn't they have a say?
Haber played God. None of us is above the other. None of us is God. Haber forgot that in his zealousness to correct the world.
I'm sure there's more to this than that but I feel that this is part of it.
Which did you find more troubling, the results that created present day improvements at the expense of people who had a terrible fate in the past or the results that unleashed present day horrors? From bloody revolutions to colonization of native lands, large population groups enjoy the world that resulted and few would restore the prior conditions to save those harmed at the loss of their present day gains. Does witnessing the peace or prosperity down the line soften the pain of some tragedy?
Mod
Irene, I missed your comment! Sorry, I would have replied sooner. I was most troubled by how fluid life was. One could be living one moment and never having existed the next. One could be happy & healthy one moment and living in the desolate, misty world at the end of the book. It was all so uncertain.
Of course, our lives today are uncertain as well. What we have today, we may not have tomorrow. But the uncertainty in this book is more concrete and final, in its way.
Irene, I have read and reread your post trying to form a way to answer your question. I found the book to be quite troubling at different points and could not at any stage say, "this was the most troubling".I thought of those millions of people who had died because of the plague and how their families suffered, but wondered was it for the better, because the previous world was so overcrowded and rampant with disease and disillusion.
I didn't like the grey people at all, this troubled me a lot too as I felt that (as the author wrote) we are each formed by our experiences as we journey through life, how our mothers and fathers are intertwined, our past generations - look at Prince Harry's fiance for want of a prime example.
Definitely a book worth rereading...
Given the over crowding, the lack of adequate food, a plague seemed like it might be in the near future for that society. Was the alternate reality simply shifting a tragedy to an earlier generation? Is this story saying that such things happen, either now or later? We did not like the grey people, but that was the only way it seemed to end discrimination. Many people expect immigrants to leave behind native languages or customs to adapt to their new home. Isn't this a greying of the society? Can we see all as equal if there are clear outward markers that some people belong to one group and others to another?
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Chicks On Lit
Books mentioned in this topic
The Handmaid’s Tale (other topics)1984 (other topics)
Ender’s Game (other topics)
Brave New World (other topics)
Dark Matter (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Ursula K. Le Guin (other topics)Kate Quinn (other topics)
I agree with you about George how scary it must be to go to sleep knowing you could wake up to a different world, in which only you remember the old one.
For the parking lots to be made into office building there must be no need for cars or cars have been done away with. Will be interesting to see if there is anything more said about it. The parking lots made into offices also makes you think of the old warehouses that are made into upmarket apartments - often see the concept on TV shows.