World, Writing, Wealth discussion
All Things Writing & Publishing
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Is the dimension of poorly edited self-published books still big?
there's a lot of investment that goes into publishing an amazing manuscript but with the economic situation in a lot of places, you will find that more and more people prefer cheap and significantly discounted books. all the book promo sites only ever promote free or discounted books.if you go at it from the point of view of a business, is it worth the investment when compared to the returns? do you even care?
its kinda like a supermarket brand range. their top range might have say 50% chicken in a chicken pie but their budget range might have 40% chicken in the budget chicken pie but costs X% less than the top range and possibly gives them better returns.
I have spoken to a number of bloggers/book readers who take part in giveaways, download free books etc with the intention of reading but never actually do so.
I really don't even know any more . . .
I am a self-published author myself and will be the first to say that I have seen quite a few poor to awful books by self-published authors. On the other hand, I have also see many 'bestsellers' published by traditional houses that, while well edited and proofread, vary between 'so-so' and 'crappy' in terms of plot, character development and storyline and are real snoozefests. Complaining about inadequate proofreading is one thing, but what about imagination and storytelling? Would you prefer a well edited snoozefest or an original, imaginative and entertaining story that was not massaged by professional editing?
Poorly edited books are on sale both from Indie and more well-known (surprisingly) authors/publishers. From what I've read so far, the lack of editing seems to be at the Indie end of books but I've also come across superbly edited books from Indies.Whoever they are, surely there should be a gold standard regarding editing if one intends to sell anything and take pride in one's work at least. Otherwise, it sends a message to the reader that, "I don't care. I just want to sell my books". In that case, it is insulting and if a reader has had that experience, why on earth would one buy any more from said person....
Even if the story is excellent, those errors, often recurring frequently, interfere with the reader's enjoyment. What a waste of effort and time and of course, money.
Even worse are bad blurbs. If your blurb is really bad, I will assume you're self-pubbed and un-edited, because surely a good blurb can't be that hard? I think I'm going to start a collection by screenshotting the awful "sponsored books" blurbs I have to see every day on this page...
Sometimes I really shake my head at those Netflix synopses. Have you seen them? Some of them are soooo bad lol.
Oh God, yes!!! You can't help but think Netflix pulled them off the IMDB user comment section...
Let's leave typos out of this, because editing is so much more. The next one up is grammar. It is true that some Indie writing is fairly weak here, but a surprising number of trad published books cannot get subjunctives even close to being right. When it comes to structure, trad can be as bad as Indies, and I rather think the better efforts come from those who have written more, in other words the more experienced the author, the better the product. OK, maybe no high surprise here.Since I am an indie, I guess sI have a conflict of interest in this discussion, but I think a good number of indies have something worth saying, and most of that would not get past the trad press because they want to stick as far as they can to those authors like King who are guaranteed sellers. Publishing is a business, and the aim is to make money, and not to do good social work for wannabe authors. So maybe we just have to persist and hope one day we too will make it.
Kat, as for "a good blurb can't be that hard", (a), blurbs are a matter of opinion, (b) they are selling aids, not literature, and a lot of good writers are not good salesmen, and (c) I find them extremely difficult because you have to produce something that instantly appeals to people other than yourself. If you have a recipe for good blurbs, please share it 😀
Michel wrote: "I am a self-published author myself and will be the first to say that I have seen quite a few poor to awful books by self-published authors. On the other hand, I have also see many 'bestsellers' pu..."The second - every time.
Of course, it's best to get both.
Has the quality improved, since we last talked about it? :)
I'm a little surprised that someone hasn't created an online marketplace for authors and free-lance editors to do business. I imagine that there are a lot of English teachers, laid-off newspaper men, and retirees who wouldn't mind doing occasional editing jobs for cash.
A lot of such biz takes place here on GR or on Fiverr. There are groups on here dedicated to matching btw authors & service providers, be they editors, beta readers, cover designers, etc
Personally cost remains biggest issue. $1000 on editing takes a lot of book sales to recover and guarantee that it will make any difference.Compare to Bablecube translation which has co-royalties model or ACX co-narrator royalties model.
Editors need to put some skin in the game - same as with cover designers etc. At the moment all of these are just getting paid when author isn't.
Editing is a perpetual question. As for costs, you are probably very lucky to get out of it for as little as $1000. As for returns, as long as the writing is not awful there is no evidence it makes any difference to sales. To start with, the reader does not know enough about it until the book is purchased. If you get comments about editing in reviews, then probably something should be done but in general these are rare.Then there is the question of purity. Take grammar. You would be surprised how many professionally edited books seem to ignore correcting subjunctive errors. Why pay that money if it isn't going to be done completely? Why not come to grips with grammar yourself and try to make a good job. Yes, there will be some errors, but are they worth thousands of dollars to find?
Then there is the question of how to say it. Editors like to put their mark on the script. Maybe what they propose does make it better, but was it bad to begin with? Is it a style change, and if so, is it worth it? In my opinion, it depends on how well you write. Showing it to an educated friend may pick up much of what should be corrected.
Finally, come clean everyone. Who has made $2000 on a given book? I confess I haven't. My literary efforts have mainly yielded pocket money, but I do make a profit. I would not had I employed such editing services. However, that may depend on the niche. I confess to be writing in a niche that most readers are not that interested in, but if you are like that you should really think hard about editing and try to learn to write better.
Be it grammar, punctuation, spelling, tense, or any other part of the function of writing correctly, I will return even free books that have too much of any combination thereof. When I first obtained a paperwhite, I downloaded a lot of free books and discovered some very good and very bad authors. The latter ruin it for the former. There are some authors that I continue to buy becauase of the ongoing story and I happen to like that story, but that's because the story snared me faster than the annoyance of tripping over bad grammar, punctuation, spelling, or other errors.
As mentioned by someone before, I, also,feel that the failure to have a book at least well-proofed indicates a lack of respect for the reader.
Sadly, I have read printed books by well-known authors and discovered a typo in the first or last chapter. It happens. Errors are not limited to ebooks.
I find it very distracting to read a book that has many mistakes in grammar, spelling, and punctuation. Sentence fragments and run-on sentences are especially irksome for me. Once in a while is okay, but too many will slow down the reading experience. I usually give up on those. I recently read a Louise Penny novel (she's a very successful writer) in which she went on and on with sentence fragments. I finished it because I liked the story, but I couldn't understand her editor not saying something. I've found this with other successful writers, and I think the editors shy away from saying anything once a writer becomes mainstream and is making lots of money for the publishing house.
Fragments are modern style, and as for run-on sentences, try Faulkner. As with many things, in my opinion it depends on how they are done. I am currently reading a book where the author has a number of fragments that expect to be leading clauses for a sentence, and then they stop, which irks me. I recently saw the results of a short story contest, judged by a "literary expert" and it seemed as if to win you were off to a good start if you did not write sentences.
Philip wrote: "Personally cost remains biggest issue. $1000 on editing takes a lot of book sales to recover and guarantee that it will make any difference.Compare to Bablecube translation which has co-royalties..."
Geez, Philip, some detailed knowledge there. Now, I'm thinking I need to go do some study and analysis.
Lizzie wrote: "Be it grammar, punctuation, spelling, tense, or any other part of the function of writing correctly, I will return even free books that have too much of any combination thereof. When I first obtain..."I find some authors unreadable as their stories are so poorly expressed. At the other end of the spectrum are authors whose writing disappears as I immerse into the imaginary world of their narrative.
Ian, I've tried Faulkner several times and give up every time. He's just not for me.
Ian wrote: "Finally, come clean everyone. Who has made $2000 on a given book?..."I think USS Krakowski cracked $2000. If not, it's right on the edge.
The pen name I'm working under now had a book banned on Amazon, so I took the work to Patreon, offering my patrons new books as I finished them so they don't have to buy from Amazon. Took a large chunk of my audience there and now make more on Patreon with my books than I make on Amazon.
Well done, J. J. It is still a huge hurdle for most of us lesser lights. (Maybe not for romance writers though..)
J.J. wrote: "Ian wrote: "Finally, come clean everyone. Who has made $2000 on a given book?..."I think USS Krakowski cracked $2000. If not, it's right on the edge.
The pen name I'm working under now had a boo..."
I've just done the opposite. I've given up on Lulu for paperback/hardbacks and Smashwords for ebooks. Now I only have Amazon - two lots of formatting and covers. (Text stays the same and scrivener takes care of compiling relatively easily. No stupidity about embedded links (Smashwords) for other suppliers. Paperbacks are half the Lulu price for customers and author copies.
Doesn't fix my typing or editing capability - only endless revisions. - Back to those now for next title - nearing completion.
The last indie book I read was terrible - a real struggle to finish. It wasn't just the typos either it was the whole thing. Entirely misconceived; anachronistic (it was historical); C19 characters with ridiculous C21 opinions dog-whistling to the recently converted; and worst of all - it was pretty much plotless.I guess there may have been a plot buried in there somewhere but that's the main task of structural editing - to make sure the flow of the story is strong and coherent and to get rid of the crap that prevents this. To my mind that's the main benefit of professional editing because even best sellers can contain typos.
As for sales, most of my books have been published by small press and sold OK. I have only one indie book - which was beautifully produced - but it hasn't set the world on fire, mainly because I have to do my own distribution for the hard copies. Not easy when you also work full time to support your writing habit.
My one and only novel was commercially available from Aug.9, 2011 until Dec. 31, 2016 when the publisher declared bankruptcy and went out of business. (Perhaps due to signing too many authors like myself.)During its nearly 5 1/2 years of availability, it sold only 1,029 units (485 paperback - 480 e-book - 36 audio book on CD - 28 audio download).
Although it did not achieve commercial success, it did receive positive ratings and reviews regarding both the technical writing and storyline. In all honesty, I must share some of the credit with the copy editor, conceptual editor, and layout design artist whose observations and suggestions proved invaluable.
I am not a prolific writer, so my first novel will also be the last. There are just too many other things to do, places to visit, and people to meet.
I feel bad for idie authors. It is easier to publish than ever and harder to be heard due to all o the noise of the other writers. As a rule, I tend to see better editing from "professional" houses and a bit worse editing from "Indie" writers. However, that does not mean there are exceedingly well edited books from the indie authors. Since I am spending your money for you, take the time to spend the money on good editors and listen to them. It makes a difference. You may not gain lots of fans right away due to the good editing, but you will lose fans right away from bad editing.
Papaphilly wrote: "You may not gain lots of fans right away due to the good editing, but you will lose fans right away from bad editing."This exactly the advice I give all the time.
The other advice I give to indie authors is not to jump in straight away and publish what is effectively an unvarnished first draft. Always take a couple of months to leave it alone - then re-read with a fresh brain. You miss stuff when you're too close to it.
Which raises the question, what comprises good editing? Obviously, bad writing is going to turn people off, but can editing fix that? I have seen a number of efforts from professional editors who simply can't get subjunctives right, but how many readers notice?The real problem for indies is to get anything like a fan. If nobody ever turns on, no need to spend copious amounts of money stopping them from turning off.
Ian wrote: "The real problem for indies is to get anything like a fan. If nobody ever turns on, no need to spend copious amounts of money stopping them from turning off. ..."As much as I agree with you, having lousy editing will cost you your one fan. It is easy for me to spend your money. This is not a cheap endeavor, but unless you put the right amount of effort in to turn out the best product, it shows; why should I bother to read your work? Good editing cannot over come bad writing, but it can turn meadiocre writing into better writing.
It depends on how bad the writing was. If the writing were reasonably good, most editors now try to turn it into their style, which loses any freshness in the original. The quality of the product depends on the skill of the writer and then the skill of the editor, and an indifferent editor can redirect towards mediocrity, and that raises the question how does the indie know how skilled the editor is? A further question is, how many indies can now make $3,000 at least after all other costs are paid? Remember, editing is irrelevant unless someone actually reads it. In my opinion, if you do not have the confidence in your writing ability, and know that confidence is reasonably founded, you are better off trying for traditional publishers. They will provide skilled editors, and also know whether the book is likely to be worth the effort.
I don't think this is such a black-and-white issue, and I'm going to throw out some aspects that are missing from the discussion. Before I start, I want it know that I'm talking about works that are at least readable. I'm talking about books that might flow fairly well, but aren't polished or contain a few errors hear and there that might raise eyebrows. I am not talking about those books that are purely incoherent, or look like something written by an Eastern European author who passed it through the worst translator possible.But I think with Indies, you have to consider price with what you're getting. I'll admit it's been a couple years since I really looked at prose books, but in the comics categories, there is still a huge price difference between ebooks put out by the professional shops like Marvel and DC, and those put out by self-published creators. The professionals aren't just charging a lot more than the indies, but they're also giving less content for what they charge.
It's a reminder that you're getting what you pay for. Realistically, when a reader pays 99cents for an indie book, they're getting a trade-off by not spending, say 9.99 on a Simon and Schuster book. I would argue if you want professional-level editing, then spend the money and buy from a traditional publishing house. If you want cheap, then a reader has to expect some flaws, just like if they were buying anything else base on price.
And then what do you do with authors setting their prices at free and giving away their books? Can you realistically expect them to pay for editing if they're not asking you for a dime? I would argue free books are no different than a story you might come across on a site like DeviantArt or on a forum. If I were to serialize a throw-away story here in this group just for the fun of it without asking for anything in return, would you really hold it to the same standard of writing and quality as a professionally published book put out by a major publishing house? But if I collect it and put it up on Amazon and get them to make it perma-free, without any adjustment to the text, it would get panned and 1-starred to death because people are getting something for nothing, but they're still comparing it to and applying the same standard as they would to something that costs $10+.
J.J. wrote: "I don't think this is such a black-and-white issue, and I'm going to throw out some aspects that are missing from the discussion. Before I start, I want it know that I'm talking about works that ar..."Thanks J.J - this is the conundrum. As you may know I and others have contributed to the thread One Morning In the Office. Nik and I have discusses combining the threads and publishing them as a volume, but your point holds. They are thrown together posts with all the usual formatting, and characteristics of threads, i.e. they are not in even first draft status. To professionally edit, combine, reformat etc will cost and who would pay? Nick, Me others? Then who would get royalty? If by some stroke of luck someone would actually buy the compilation, how many sales to recover the costs?
I translate that to my own work. I could spend thousands on editing etc and then still fail to sell or not spend thousands and still fail to sell.
Philip wrote: "J.J. wrote: "I don't think this is such a black-and-white issue, and I'm going to throw out some aspects that are missing from the discussion. Before I start, I want it know that I'm talking about ..."Me personally, if I were to do it, I would just collect the thread, make whatever minor adjustments had to be done to clear up any incoherencies, then be up front about what it is and what to expect in the book's description. Since no one person owns the copyright, I would either give it away fro free, or charge a small amount and donate the royalties to a charity everyone can agree on. If you go the charity route, put that in the description so people might give it a chance when they'd otherwise skip it, and maybe they'll be nicer when reviewing...
One Morning in the Office may be a very good idea and I think ti could be puled off. I am willing to bet you could find a great book within the thread. All the rest could be worked out if you can find the material. BTW, where is the thread?
Papaphilly wrote: "One Morning in the Office may be a very good idea and I think ti could be puled off. I am willing to bet you could find a great book within the thread. All the rest could be worked out if you can find the material. BTW, where is the thread?"https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
OK,As everyone knows I am the non-writer. So I am going to give my two cents worth for all of the writers. As some of you know, I do photography. I have spent some money and way too much time. If the thousands of photographs, I have two that I think are acceptable (salable). I have made zero dollars so far, but that is not what is pushing me. I am going to try and explain it. I see the picture and I try to capture it. Most of my problem is not the picture in my head, but me being able to get the camera to do what I want. I have gotten so very close on many, but not quite there yet. I could probably sell some of what I take because someone always will buy art. However, what I want is the picture to be right. If the picture is not right, it is not worth the effort because then I am not putting my best into it. I cannot tell you how much I have spent on pictures to only shred them because they just do not work.
I tell all of you this because I see much the same thing when it comes to writing. Before anything else, above all, it must be right. How many times have you read any story any length and say "I can do better?" How many times have you read a story and think "they are mailing it in?" Have you thought of "my time is being wasted" with poor editing or horrible writing? This thread is all about it.
There are two parts here as far as I can see. One: it is about the writing. Get the story right, whatever that means. Put your best effort in every time and never mail it in. It is both an insult to your talent as well as your reader. As many of you have mentioned, finding readers is impossible, then why waste their time? The fewer the readers the more precious.
The second: I call it the presentation (the frame). Think about the book cover and editing. A frame can make or destroy a picture. It can really matter. This includes the matting. it can turn an ordinary picture into a piece of art. It takes a very special type of effort and talent to pull it off well. I have some eye for it, but usually it is for others work. So I rely on a third person to help me. What a difference it can make. That is your art and writing editor.
Now the hard part, the money. Everything costs money. Everything. It is easy for me to spend your money. It is not cheap and you still have depend on good editors or your work fails. find the good ones and spend the money. No, I do not have any either. Yes, I am a bastard for suggesting the obvious. It is your art.
I feel bad for you indies. As I have said more than once, it is easy to publish and harder than ever to be heard. There is so much noise and most of it is terrible. So how does one do this? The first step is by doing it right. You most precious resource is me, your reader. Do not waste me or I definitely will not come back.
I can only say if most of you are like me in this respect, then it will not matter. You write like I do photography, because you have too. If you do it for any other reason, maybe it is time to find another hobby.
J. wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "One Morning in the Office may be a very good idea and I think ti could be puled off. I am willing to bet you could find a great book within the thread. All the rest could be work..."thanks
Regardless of the method of publication - traditional, self-published, or vanity press, an author is an author, a technically well-written book is a technically well-written book, and an entertaining story is an entertaining story.Anyone wishing to create and then present a product to the public should want that product to be of the highest level of quality and intrinsic value as possible. Achievement of perfection is humanly impossible; however, striving for perfection almost always results in achieving some level of success.
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: It is the courage to continue that counts."
Winston Churchill (Former Prime Minister of the U.K.) 1874 - 1965.
Striving for perfection is a waste of time because it is impossible to achieve. Of course, you try to do the best you can, but with writing, remember what is great for one reader may seem like tripe to another.I recall being told once about old Persian carpets, which can be worth an awful lot of money. The classic carpet weavers always put a flaw into the carpet, to let Allah know they were not that arrogant they would try for perfection, (If someone tries to sell you such an old carpet, if there is nom flaw it is a fake. Of course, if there is a flaw, it could still be a fake, so getting expert opinion might be called for.)
So my advice is to work on it as hard as you can, but ultimately there comes a time when you have to either let someone else play with it, or let it go, one way or the other.
One last thought. In one of my novels there is a fairy longish section in which a young Roman has to learn Aristotelian science. An editor would say that had to be cut out, but if that is cut out the rest of the story does not make sense, and it also spoils the theme of the series. So I prefer to take modest sales than spoil what I am trying to achieve in the hope of a little more money.
Papaphilly wrote: "OK,As everyone knows I am the non-writer. So I am going to give my two cents worth for all of the writers. As some of you know, I do photography..."
P, is there anyplace online where you have some of your photography posted? I would be interested to see it.
My two (non-sports) hobbies are writing and art. I began writing very late (I was 32 when I decided to 'try my hand' at it), but I have been drawing and painting since I was a kid (mostly dungeons and dragons type stuff).
G.R. wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "OK,As everyone knows I am the non-writer. So I am going to give my two cents worth for all of the writers. As some of you know, I do photography..."
P, is there anyplace onlin..."
I am in the process of building a online web site. However, I could post a couple on these threads.
Ian wrote: "Striving for perfection is a waste of time because it is impossible to achieve. Of course, you try to do the best you can, but with writing, remember what is great for one reader may seem like trip..."Innumerable accomplishments would never have been attempted, let alone achieved, if those doing so had not even made an attempt because it was deemed to be impossible at the time.
Just a few of the most commonly known examples:
- A seagoing vessel's ability to cross an ocean in days.
- Voice/video communications across extremely long distances.
- Heavier than air flying machines.
- Wireless communication devices.
- Months-long human habitation in outer space.
So, I stand by the statment made in the 2nd. paragraph of message 39. Never fail to attempt something merely because it is judged to be impossible today. It may not be considered impossible tomorrow.
I'll just say that, as a reader, a poorly edited and proofread book with many grammatical and spelling errors will hold my attention for one page. How can I concentrate on what you have to say if I'm distracted by those errors?
Nobody is defending bad writing, although I would say that a number of modern literary "masterpieces" have writing that does not follow classical grammar. The question is, is the writing bad? If you don't want to continue reading, for you it is. However, if the odd typo puts you off, you will find them also in traditional books. Nobody proofreads perfectly. The important thing is to eliminate and correct as many as you can.
For the writer, it seems to come down to a cost vs. error rate. As a reader, how upset it make me depends on the type of error. Typos happen. When I see a repeated grammatical error, such as "I" when it should be "me" or "which" vs. "that", I am annoyed. A split infinitive is less likely to bother me. Mostly, as a reader, it's if that error cause me to trip over the sentence when reading it.
If the story is interesting to me, I will continue to read it. However, too many errors interfere to the point that I can't concentrate on the story makes it unlikely I will give that author another try, regardless of the price of the book.
As authors and readers, do any of you have a rule of thumb in regards to how many errors per page, chapter, number of words that you find acceptable?
I do my best to be error-free, but I know errors will be there. One thing that bugs me is the fact that strict grammar is not followed sometimes even by the professionals. As an example the subjunctive seems to be dying.As for split infinitives, that is one of those silly things imposed by those who bleat, you don't find them in the great Latin writers. Of course not, because the Latin infinitive is one word
I think the subjunctive has been dying for a long time.Split infinitives are so common in American English that I don't notice them anymore. Creating a conversation that sounds real would be diffuclt.
I knew grammar better in the 90s when I was obtaining national certifications as paralegal. Formal writing was not an easy section to pass. I was also teaching it as part of paralegal courses. Nowadays, I don't think I could pass my own tests.
Part of my ability in writing came from reading since I was little. I suspect that avid readers are more likely to notice errors. I would suspect that most books are purchased by people who read a lot, that you want them as your audience, and that they are more likely to ding authors on the errors
Whenever I hear about split infinitives, I think of the opening narration of Star Trek. In prose, and especially in dialogue, I don't expect perfect grammar - developing a style that includes grammatical license, slang, colloquialisms, personal style is what makes a book stand out. I don't expect the rules that should apply to contracts, theses and instructions to apply to novels. I do expect grammar to be applied where proper grammar is applicable - a sentence such as "Every person is entitled to their own opinion" would irk me, unless it was the dialogue of someone who's a bit fast and loose with the pronouns.But I do expect rules of format and punctuation to apply because those contribute to a book's "readability".
I tend to agree with Lizzie that writing ability often comes from reading - I think avid readers might notice errors more, but I also think avid readers may be the best writers.
Barbara wrote: "I also think avid readers may be the best writers...."If that were only true, I would be an incredible writer....8^)
World, Writing, Wealth
Books mentioned in this topic
A Clockwork Orange (other topics)Riddley Walker (other topics)
So, what's the situ now? Does indie revolution bring really good and lower priced lit as a rule or not necessarily?