Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Is This the Seventh Day of Creation?
So you've cherry picked how little of God's Word?You're trying to believe the end while fudging the beginning and middle? Okay, not my problem. Fun to chat about.
You're desperately trying to have a materialistic creation without God's miracles and intervention but then you later assume the opposite in Christ. Please be consistent.Jesus AND many Bible personalities did many miracles that altered time and nature (any REAL Christian and scientist would include this in their scientific method). You're trying to play both sides of the court Robert. Bad form buddy.
6000 years is a very long time. 16.5 billion years is just a ludicrous waste of time. (Those poor angels and demons must have gone insane with boredom and repetition)
Robert wrote: "We're all familiar with God's 6 day creation extravaganza as explained in beginning Genesis. As a religious person, I believe God created what He said He created. As a scientist, the time frame nee..."You are definitely on to something. A lot of scholars think we are in the seventh day. I would recommend this book or others by people from his organization.
A Matter of Days: Resolving a Creation Controversy
Rod - perhaps I shouldn't have used the term big bang, but I have no other phraseology for t=0 when God initiated Creation. That this is miraculous is undisputable and so beyond human ken that no one even offers a hypothesis about HOW this was accomplished. WHAT transpired is largely materialistic. Stars, planets, comets and other cosmological wonders are all composed of elements which are the building blocks of matter. True, antimatter, quarks, and black holes may not follow the laws of physics as we know them, but that doesn't make them supernatural - just not explained. Anything else God created is also inexplicable as to the HOW including humans, but we are decidedly materialistic flesh and blood. Apart from other animals we have a God-given soul which ultimately this whole forum is in both agreement and disagreement about as to its nature. I try to keep separate what I KNOW (scientific side) from what I BELIEVE (religious side), although they may appear to merge to those of singular bent. That you are a jumbled mass of superstition and badly thought out logic is sad, but won't be alleviated by reading Creation Science garbage.
Creation science garbage???And yet that is exactly what the very Word of God teaches and insists. As man's science flounders all around us.
I'm still not convinced you've given this the slightest bit of logical AND consistent thought Robert. You're cutting corners everywhere to impress WHO exactly?
Robert wrote: "We're all familiar with God's 6 day creation extravaganza as explained in beginning Genesis. As a religious person, I believe God created what He said He created. As a scientist, the time frame nee..."My response:
* 100% of the time when the word "yom" is used with "`ereb" and / or "boqer" in the Bible, it is a literal 24 hour day.
* 100% of the time when the word "yom" is used with an ordinal number (first, second, etc.) in the Bible, it is a literal 24 hour day.
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Once again, you stand in OPPOSITION to God.
You again stand in AGREEMENT with the one who said...
"HATH GOD REALLY SAID..."
Robert - don't be silly - an hour is a human appellation. Man came along on the sixth day. What timekeeping device do you think God used during days one through five?
Rod - Ha! Ha! At 70 years old I'm long past the days when I tried to impress (and usually failed) anyone. We're far apart in seeking the Truth obviously so I'll just conclude that we each took a different fork in the William James tradition. We both may need to retrace to our point of origin, but I believe I'm on the right track while you're lost in the swamp. I'm sure you feel the same. Anyway, good luck in your quest.
Why do you believe you're on the right track? How have you tested this?
Rod - by prayer for guidance; we're on the same team here, believe it or not.
Robert wrote: "Robert - don't be silly - an hour is a human appellation. Man came along on the sixth day. What timekeeping device do you think God used during days one through five?"My response: YOU are the SILLY one... God created EVERYTHING. No matter what YOUR god says.
Robert wrote: "Robert - don't be silly - an hour is a human appellation. Man came along on the sixth day. What timekeeping device do you think God used during days one through five?"Robert, doesn't the Bible call "the evening and the morning" a day?
Robert, every cult and bit of witchcraft (even Buddhists) claim guidance from prayers. Why choose your deity? Is the Jesus of Mormons and Muslims just as valid? Why or why not?
Are we on the same team? I sure hope so. But my Jesus is known in the trustworthy Word of God.I have no idea what is true about your Jesus.
Rod - are you claiming that God wrote the Gospels? In your world, Man can do nothing without God's hand up his back. If we're nothing but a puppet why even go through the charade of trying to think for yourself or invent anything. You reduce living to Robert's level - just quote Scripture for everything and call it an accomplishment.
Tyrone - evening and morning where; and which "sun" are we talking about? Earth and our solar system are rather a late development in the context of the duration of the Universe.
Of course God wrote the Gospels. That's not even a Christian debate. Breathed out by the Holy Spirit through God's chosen vessels. Similar to God using and speaking through Jeremiah and the prophets.
Robert you really do trust mankinds desperate guesses at science and creation... against God's Word. Why? Are you not aware of the endless problems with secular science????
Rod - so your God has fingers and wields a pen? Any other traits you'd like to personify? Does he wear a jaunty hat like you? Maybe he has a built in preference toward diesel truck drivers? Of course He put visions in OT prophets minds and even spoke to them directly, but they still did the chronicling and were not above fudging the facts, especially since there was only one author in many instances. The Resurrection story had 4 eyewitnesses and came at a time when literary art was better developed so God didn't need to intervene. Maybe in your Christian universe interference by the Holy Spirit is always a plus, but in mine, human adoration of the merits of what they heard and saw from Jesus carries more weight.
Rod - your are correct that science has it's growing pains and is wildly inaccurate in many fields. But many recent findings in genetics and astrophysics actually point toward a Creator so should not be viewed as strictly secular. This is my specialty and I'm good at it backed up by a number of research and teaching awards. We all have our lens through which we view the world and mine didn't keep me from finding the Way, Truth and Life of Jesus Christ. If you had pursued an equally rigorous path of study you too might have a firm basis for not accepting a literal interpretation of Scripture but, since you didn't, you might as well accept the blather of flunkies and quacks who couldn't contribute to the body of higher scientific knowledge.
Robert wrote: "Maybe in your Christian universe interference by the Holy Spirit is always a plus, but in mine, human adoration of the merits of what they heard and saw from Jesus carries more weight...."My response: LOL!!!! You have NO IDEA what Jesus did... because you DON'T TRUST the Bible (you know, the Book that tells us about Him.)
Robert - is your gramophone stuck in a groove? If you can't come up with a fresh argument rather than the tired response you've been parroting to every thread, why bother to take up the space. Go back to Bible School and pay a little more attention in your Logic class.
Of course science points towards a creator. That's good science. When the scientific method is applied properly and honestly great things happen. Sadly, it often isn't: Satan is proud.
So who should I blindly trust to come to this academic non-literal biblical interpretation? Why do you trust them?
Robert wrote: "Robert - is your gramophone stuck in a groove? If you can't come up with a fresh argument rather than the tired response you've been parroting to every thread, why bother to take up the space. Go b..."LOL!!!! You have NO IDEA what Jesus did... because you DON'T TRUST the Bible (you know, the Book that tells us about Him.)
Robert: "...didn't keep me from finding the... truth..."I'm not sure what truth you claim to have found exactly. If not the Jesus of the truthful Holy scriptures - then WHAT Jesus? Mormon Jesus? Hindu Jesus? Liberal Good Idea Jesus? Secular Sci-fi Jesus? KKK Jesus?
All I have to go on is the 100% Biblical Jesus. Nothing else. If I even start with something else... then there's no stopping. All cults are fair game. Might as well worship Mary and the Pope too.
Rod - Ok, let's employ a little science inspired critical thinking. When the Jews were in the desert where there is little to eat so God let it rain Manna is perfectly understandable if scientifically impossible. But I check that box, yes. Similarly, when Pharaoh would not let God's chosen people go, the Lord initiated unscientific plagues to unloosen a hardened heart. Check that box, yes, too. But why a plague of frogs? Can you imagine anything more terrifying, except maybe a plague of liberals? However, when the well fed Hebrews came upon the walled city of Jericho which they could have stormed or besieged, God interfered when he needn't and knocked the walls down for them. Couldn't this huge army do the job without divine interference? This is too one-sided and unnecessary for me. I check this box, No.
Robert wrote: "Rod - Ok, let's employ a little science inspired critical thinking..."My response: Lets NOT employ ANY (lack of) thinking that makes GOD to be WRONG.
Hebrews 11:30 - "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days."
Robert C. concern:"Couldn't this huge army do the job without divine interference? This is too one-sided and unnecessary for me. I check this box, No. "
Fair question, But you seem to have not gone deep enough. You quit just when it got interesting. Here's my quick thoughts:
All the things you just mentioned were GOD's DOING. Yet you seem to want to take on Jericho without God's doing. Reduce it to just military might? How does God get the glory for that?
Which is your problem with the entire Bible Robert C: You seem to desire to reduce it to man's doing and accounts. Where do you find the Holy Spirit in all that?
If the Holy Spirit wrote the Gospel WITH man, then why not assume the rest of the New Testament was written that way? Why not assume the entire Old Testament was written by The Holy Spirit AND man?
Robert have you not researched how the entire New Testament AND Gospels speak thousands of times about the truths of the Old Testament? YEs, From Genesis to the Flood to the Genealogy of Jesus to the coming end times?
Indeed, If Matthew, Luke, John and Mark wrote the Gospel account with the Holy Spirit ------ then Moses wrote the Pentateuch with the Holy Spirit as well. God wouldn't leave His Truth up to fallible humans only.
You need to spend some time seriously reading what the Saints have to say about Science, History, Philosophy, Ethics, Math, Psychology, Geography.... instead of siding with non-christian scholars on these issues. You sound like a typical atheist teenager. But I like you - you can do better than that.
Spend a day reading Answers In Genesis. You just need to put your pride and biases aside for a few hours and realize these are actual CHRISTIAN scientists with major degrees from actual universities. Give Christian brothers and sisters a chance. A REAL scientist would be curious and explore...
Ok Rod - I like you, too and regard your criticisms as fair considering your point of view. It just seems to me that because the Greeks devised a Trojan Horse to enter Troy and the Romans built a tower to access Masala, then God's Chosen People should be at least as resourceful. How does it benefit God if he has to do every task for you? Doesn't he reward ingenuity, valor, and perseverance in the face of strong enemies. To me, the Jews have largely been a HUGE disappointment to God, except for a few short periods. No wonder that he opened up the world to Him, the Hebrews couldn't pass muster.
Robert wrote: "How does it benefit God if he has to do every task for you? ..."My response: If you KNEW Jesus... you would NOT ask such a question...
Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me..."
Good point- but often God's people are idiots. (Hence, they're normal). Or there is a Judas in their midst. All part of God's plan.
Robert - so God gives you talents, say musical. In your mind that's all Jesus requires. You don't have to endlessly practice to hone your abilities, Jesus is content that you sit in an armchair and hum to yourself "Amazing Grace".
Robert wrote: "Robert - so God gives you talents, say musical. In your mind that's all Jesus requires. You don't have to endlessly practice to hone your abilities, Jesus is content that you sit in an armchair and..."CLEARLY the Jesus you claim to know is NOT the TRUE Jesus of the Bible...
Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me..."
Robert - of all the irrelevant passages you spew forth, this one easily tops your best effort to date.
Robert wrote: "Robert - of all the irrelevant passages you spew forth, this one easily tops your best effort to date."My response: LOL!!! You call yourself a believer in Jesus... and you call God's Word IRRELEVANT!
What is truly irrelevant is YOUR OPINION... but it will NOT be irrelevant in eternity...
Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Robert - I'm not mocking God, I'm mocking you for quoting Bible passages that have nothing to do with the topic being discussed. Sure everybody gets lazy and takes shortcuts, but when you're invoking the word of God, you really ought to be a lot more disciplined in your application.
Robert wrote: "Robert - I'm not mocking God, I'm mocking you for quoting Bible passages that have nothing to do with the topic being discussed. Sure everybody gets lazy and takes shortcuts, but when you're invoki..."My response: You ARE a MOCKER of God. You think you know better than God...
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My response: LOL!!! You call yourself a believer in Jesus... and you call God's Word IRRELEVANT!
What is truly irrelevant is YOUR OPINION... but it will NOT be irrelevant in eternity...
Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Robert - as a fundamentalist cult member who are a bunch of neo-Pharisses, I'd consider Galatians 6:7 very seriously. You are reaping discord over triffles. If I say I'm a disciple of Christ, then that's that. You as a mortal have NO SAY in the matter. Stick to your station in life and when you do get away from your desk to recruit for the Kingdom, try witnessing for Christ (remember Him?) and not for new members for your cult.
Robert wrote: "Robert - as a fundamentalist cult member who are a bunch of neo-Pharisses, I'd consider Galatians 6:7 very seriously. You are reaping discord over triffles. If I say I'm a disciple of Christ, then ..."My response: You ARE a MOCKER of God. You think you know better than God...
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My response: LOL!!! You call yourself a believer in Jesus... and you call God's Word IRRELEVANT!
What is truly irrelevant is YOUR OPINION... but it will NOT be irrelevant in eternity...
Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Robert wrote: "If I say I'm a disciple of Christ, then that's that. You as a mortal have NO SAY in the matter..."My response: Yet AGAIN you REJECT Jesus!
John 13:35 - "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
Jesus says that ALL MEN will KNOW His disciples...
Robert C says that JESUS IS WRONG !
Robert - well we'll turn this around; I'm most certainly a man and I DO NOT KNOW that you are a disciple of Christ. A disciple of a skinhead group I can believe. That you got your Bible Studies degree online for a couple hundred bucks, that I can believe. That you recruit for your cult, rather than the Master, that I can believe. And that you do more harm for the Kingdom than good, I can EASILY believe.
Robert wrote: "Robert - well we'll turn this around; I'm most certainly a man and I DO NOT KNOW that you are a disciple of Christ..."So, AGAIN you are calling Jesus a LIAR !
But you FALSELY claim to follow Him????
Robert - you would bore even an atomic clock to sleep!
Robert wrote: "Robert - well we'll turn this around; I'm most certainly a man and I DO NOT KNOW that you are a disciple of Christ..."So, AGAIN you are calling Jesus a LIAR !
But you FALSELY claim to follow Him????
Robert - have you ever uttered an original thought?
Robert wrote: "Robert - have you ever uttered an original thought?"My response: Indeed. But when my original thoughts CONTRADICT the Word of God... unlike you... I KNOW God is right and my contradictory thoughts are wrong.
Fair enough, Robert. Henceforth, I'll just realize that you feel quoting Scripture is the best way to witness for Jesus. I suppose I feel like St. Augustine and other Christian philosophers that prose backed by Faith is the avenue to conversion. I wish you luck in fulfillment of the Great Commission and look forward to further heated discussions of related topics.
Robert wrote: "Fair enough, Robert. Henceforth, I'll just realize that you feel quoting Scripture is the best way to witness for Jesus. I suppose I feel like St. Augustine and other Christian philosophers that pr..."My response: This is the difference...
...YOU FEEL...
...I TRUST GOD...
Romans 10:17 - "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God ."
Now, in the subsequent 2000+ years since the resurrection, I believe God is finally at rest. He has given over the reigns to Jesus and the Holy Spirit and they, in turn, have delegated responsibility to humankind for how long it will be until the end of days. It is this Christian's opinion we are rushing toward the Apocalypse at breakneck speed. What's your take?