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Is This the Seventh Day of Creation?
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message 51:
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Robert
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Nov 28, 2017 01:18PM
Robert - yes, we get it - you trust God! But how does He communicate with you? Unless you're going to take the superstitious route that He talks to you directly, to which I would recommend psychiatric help, then he makes His wishes known through your senses. That's feelings, pal! So, no matter how much you claim you KNOW about our God, your knowledge is nothing more than feeling and opinion.
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Robert wrote: "Robert - yes, we get it - you trust God! But how does He communicate with you? Unless you're going to take the superstitious route that He talks to you directly, to which I would recommend psychiat..."God communicates with me in many ways... but ALL of them MUST be TESTED by His INFALLIBLE Word... the Bible.
Anything contrary to the Bible is from the PIT OF HELL.
Robert wrote: "o, no matter how much you claim you KNOW about our God, your knowledge is nothing more than feeling and opinion..."My response: Thanks for YOUR OPINION. But Jesus DOES NOT AGREE with you. He tells us to LIVE BY EVERY WORD FROM GOD... Matthew 4:4
Robert - right you are to live by every word from God, but it takes intelligent digging to separate the WORD of God from the mortal fallacies of Biblical authors. Because you are too lazy to attempt to differentiate between the two, you take the easy way out and proclaim thoughtful scriptural examination "from the pit of hell." Too bad I don't have a Brooklyn Bridge to sell, noncritical examiners like you are easy marks!
Robert wrote: "Robert - right you are to live by every word from God, but it takes intelligent digging to separate the WORD of God from the mortal fallacies of Biblical authors. ..."My response: This comment reveals that YOU are YOUR OWN god. Jesus believed EVERY WORD of the Old Testament was the Word of God...
...YOU think YOURSELF SUPERIOR to Jesus and that YOU get to CORRECT JESUS and His mistakes (according to you).
Jesus believed in Noah and the flood... YOU DON'T!
Jesus believed in Jonah and the great fish... YOU DON'T!
Jesus believed in Moses and the parting of the Red Sea... YOU DON'T!
You are a god unto yourself.
REPENT.
Robert quote:" but it takes intelligent digging to separate the WORD of God from the mortal fallacies of Biblical authors"
Robert how do you understand The Holy Spirit writing the Word of God WITH men? Just curious? It seems "your god" leaves this up to men alone, or simply has no real control over it.
Rod - the Holy Spirit put visions in the minds of men; early Genesis is no different than Revelation. The authors interpreted them the best they could, but with limited knowledge of the HANDIWORK of God, which science interprets (still with questionable success) they got a bunch wrong. How much is yet to be determined. Sure wish we could unearth some remains of Noah's hometown (Atlantis?) and the Garden of Eden, but the flood buried them pretty deep. Maybe we need a bigger backhoe!
Robert wrote: "Rod - the Holy Spirit put visions in the minds of men; early Genesis is no different than Revelation. The authors interpreted them the best they could, but with limited knowledge of the HANDIWORK o..."Robert, bottom line, are you suggesting the Bible must be wrong because science doesn't support it?
Tyrone - the Bible is not wrong in its central thesis. How it gets there is often augmented by historic, scientific, and human cupidity errors. Overall, scripture is the inerrant word of God when pursued for its entire content. Drilling down to wildly inaccurate accounts and exaggerations in no way diminishes its divine importance but merely suggests the examiner is employing the critical thought processes given him by God.
Robert wrote: "Tyrone - the Bible is not wrong in its central thesis. How it gets there is often augmented by historic, scientific, and human cupidity errors. Overall, scripture is the inerrant word of God when p..."Thanks, but it seems your answer is "yes" when some specific accounts, stories, or events are considered. Your problem, if I understand you correctly, still is that science does not corroborate these things. Correct?
The unbiblical Robert's problem is that science is his god. So-called science is more important to him than the Word of God... so he REJECTS the Bible and embraces alleged science.
Any basic skeptic should easily be able to follow the flaws of science. No reason to put faith in it over God's Word.Good science is also easy to follow. This isn't difficult stuff.
Robert D,, Rod, Tyrone - as politics is polarized so seems our respective religious outlooks. We have all gone to our individual corners and barricaded ourselves with our customary "safe" biases. We could use Peter, the Canadian organic chemist, to propose a workable middle ground. He was the one person on this board who let his head overrule his passion.
Robert wrote: "Robert D,, Rod, Tyrone - as politics is polarized so seems our respective religious outlooks. We have all gone to our individual corners and barricaded ourselves with our customary "safe" biases. W..."Here is the PLACE of TRUTH and SAFETY...
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Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and SEARCHED the SCRIPTURES DAILY, whether those things were so.
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2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
And you, Robert, feel you are perfect? If being ignorant of everything except rote Scripture is that, I'm sure glad I know I'm sinful and need my Lord to forgive it.
Robert wrote: "And you, Robert, feel you are perfect? If being ignorant of everything except rote Scripture is that, I'm sure glad I know I'm sinful and need my Lord to forgive it."My response: And one of your GREATEST SINS is REJECTING Jesus and the Word of God that He endorses.
Here is the PLACE of TRUTH and SAFETY...
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Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and SEARCHED the SCRIPTURES DAILY, whether those things were so.
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2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Peter didn't really say a lot. That shouldn't be mistaken for kindness or tolerance. (But it could be!)When Satan smiles, shakes your hand, and kisses babies... that when you should be worried.
I have read this entire debate and I found it to be fascinating and a bit sad. Fascinating because I love discussing the Bible and Christianity and sad because some people on this thread seemed to use some pretty harsh words and criticisms. I believe, as Christians, it is always okay to debate the different parts of the Bible and still be civil, respectful, and careful with the use of our words when talking to one another. I get it, it is easy to attack people online... it is easy to say things in a forum that we would never say to another persons face. But that doesn't mean we should.I also believe, that before having a conversation / debate about creation a few things should be established. The starting point must be equal or the conversation will divulge into "your God" is different than "my God" conversation that serves no purpose.
A good starting point is a statement of faith. A good statement of faith is something most Christians will say... "yep... I agree with that." I propose that this would be a good statement of faith to start with:
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"We believe
...in the Holy Scriptures as originally given by God, divinely inspired, infallible, entirely trustworthy; and the supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct...
One God, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...
Our Lord Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, His virgin birth, His sinless human life, His divine miracles, His vicarious and atoning death, His bodily resurrection, His ascension, His mediatorial work, and His Personal return in power and glory...
The Salvation of lost and sinful man through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ by faith apart from works, and regeneration by the Holy Spirit...
The Holy Spirit, by whose indwelling the believer is enabled to live a holy life, to witness and work for the Lord Jesus Christ...
The Unity of the Spirit of all true believers, the Church, the Body of Christ...
The Resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life, they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation."
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Many, many, churches and para-church organizations and ministries have adopted this statement of faith.
If we can't agree on the basic tenants of Christianity as outlined in the statement of faith above, there is almost no point in debating those things that are... well... debatable. Like whether the Earth was created in 6 literal days or if it formed over a 10 billion year period... I tend to fall on the 6 literal days side of the debate, but I am open to other view points, knowing full-well there are plenty of people out there who are going to be in heaven with me that believe the Earth was created in 10 billion years.
A person's salvation is not determined by whether or not they believe in a 6-day creation or not.
As long as you believe Jesus died and rose again and you have asked for and received forgiveness of sins, then I look forward to the day I get to meet you in heaven instead of here on this forum.
The point is, there are many things in Christianity that CAN be debated. But there are many things in Christianity that CANNOT be debated. As long as we agree on those things that CANNOT be debated, I'd love to have more debate on those things that CAN.
There are disagreements about church polity, six-day creationism, mode of baptism, and eschatology. There are differences of opinion about social drinking, the gifts of the Spirit, and what makes clothing “modest.” Some of these issues are more important than others, and it is good, to prevent unnecessary clashes and falling-outs, to distinguish between what is worth debating and what is not.
Keep in mind there is a vast difference between a friendly debate and a bitter war of words. Verbal assault, slander, accusation, and perverse speech have no place in the body of Christ (Colossians 3:8; 1 Peter 2:1; Ephesians 4:31). What must unbelievers think when they see Christians slinging verbal mud at each other over minor doctrinal differences?
When we believe someone is in doctrinal error, we can humbly and respectfully point it out. But we have to remember that others with equal reverence for God’s Word may read it differently. Such discussion is healthy if approached with the right attitude and a teachable spirit. We learn much from the input of others and may even change our viewpoint when presented with a new perspective. Some topics have challenged sincere believers since the early church. Respectful debate on important issues is beneficial to everyone involved, if it is done in the spirit of Christ without ego or personal agenda.
Chad wrote: "When we believe someone is in doctrinal error, we can humbly and respectfully point it out. But we have to remember that others with equal reverence for God’s Word may read it differently ..."___________________________
God says...
Galatians 2:11 - "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face , because he was to be blamed ."
Galatians 2:14 - "But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel , I said unto Peter before them all , If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
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My response: Any heresy that calls into question God and/or His Word needs strong and Biblical response. Especially when the heresy is posted or proclaimed publicly!
Good stuff.Revelation says that it is a vision. Genesis does not. Therefore we shouldn't assume.
Chad, I wouldn't assume that everyone who argues in a Christian chat group is a Christian. We should be able to tell by their love. If someone isn't getting along with love and patience for the brethren-- then they may not be the elect.Judas was one of the twelve for many years: only Jesus knew.
The extremely religious people of Jesus day murdered him. And they loved the law and temple: but not people.
Many people run around "in Jesus name" but they don't know him.
Robert wrote: "Any heresy that calls into question God and/or His Word needs strong and Biblical response."First of all... you didn't respond to most important point I was making... There are things that Christians disagree on and should be able to debate without someone who thinks they are holier than the Holy coming along with verbal assaults using all caps to "yell" REPENT SINNER!
There have been disagreements in the church since Biblical times. Do you think this will change before the return of Christ?
Do you think your method of quoting scripture and yelling at people (yes, all caps in online forums is considered yelling) will help people come over to your point of view?
You respond to what you call heresy (when it is really just difference of opinion) with verbal assault, slander, and accusation? All of which are called out in scripture as unacceptable in the body of Christ (Colossians 3:8; 1 Peter 2:1; Ephesians 4:31)? So you might be right, but your delivery is wrong, and sinful in and of itself. Your delivery goes against scripture.
In chapter 14 of the book of Romans, Paul addresses at length a specific problem in the first-century Roman churches — namely, that people had disagreements about different customs and religious convictions. Even though Paul had never been to Rome, he had heard about the controversies.
Disputable matters
“Accept the one whose faith is weak,” Paul begins, “without passing judgment in disputable matters” (14:1). Here, we learn several important things:
- Some Christians are weak in the faith and, as verse 2 explains, they are overly restrictive.
- Weak-faith Christians should be accepted, not ridiculed. People grow in faith through love and acceptance, not through ostracism.
- Christians who think they are strong are sometimes tempted to look down on others.
- Some matters are disputable. The beliefs and practices that some Christians think are important are unimportant to others.
Paul then addresses the dispute in Rome: “One person’s faith allows him to eat anything, but another person, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables” (v. 2). Why did some people avoid meat? Perhaps they were influenced by ascetic philosophies, but more likely, the concerns came from Judaism. The terms “unclean” and “clean” (vv. 14, 20) were important in Judaism, and as we have seen, the letter to the Romans repeatedly addresses Jews and Gentiles as the most significant divisions in the church.
Some (but not all) Jews avoided meat because they could not be sure that the animals had been properly killed (see Dan. 1:8). Some Gentiles may have been just as cautious.
Let’s see how Paul dealt with this situation: “The one who eats everything must not look down on the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not condemn the one who does, for God has accepted them” (v. 3). The strong-faith Christian should not belittle the weak Christian, and the weak one should not condemn the more permissive Christian.
It appears that Paul is saying when he describes this situation is that when one believe has reached a different conclusion than another on a topic that is not essential to going to heave (i.e six-day creation) then each side should not condemn the other.
I would assume that you consider yourself a strong-faith Christian. So you are told by Paul in Romans 14:1 to, "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations." Basically... for those that you consider to be of weaker faith, do not argue with them about differing opinions.
Paul did not mean that we should accept idolaters, fornicators, thieves and drunkards (1 Cor. 5:11). The New Testament clearly tells us to avoid certain behaviors. But it doesn’t address every situation and every behavior, and because of that, there will be differences of opinion within Christianity.
The Lord has called us to serve, not judge. If he has been so merciful as to include us, we must let him be merciful to them, too. He will manage his own servants.
“Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification” (Romans 14:19). We are to teach one another what is true, and try to live peaceably with one another despite our differences. With peace and mutual acceptance, people will learn the truth.
Paul then warns the strong, who have the right doctrine but the wrong attitude: “Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall” (vv. 20-21). If you are too aggressive, you will drive the weak people away from Christ, and consequently “destroy the work of God” that is being done in their lives. Paul is not dealing with minor personal preferences, but major questions of faith and apostasy.
“So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God” (v. 22). Paul did not keep his own position a secret (v. 20) — but he did not badger the weak to eat and drink what he did. He did not pressure people to violate their own consciences.
Paul is clearly on the side of liberty, but he also sounds a warning: “Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves” (v. 22). In other words, make sure that your freedom in Christ does not hurt others.
Rod wrote: "Judas was one of the twelve for many years: only Jesus knew..."John 17:12 - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition ; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
My response: Interesting... Jesus LOST someone that Rod claims He NEVER HAD !
Chad wrote: "Do you think your method of quoting scripture and yelling at people (yes, all caps in online forums is considered yelling) will help people come over to your point of view?..."My response: When people REJECT, REDEFINE, or RE-WRITE quoted Scripture, because they do NOT LIKE what the Word of God says...
...I have little hope that they will "come over to my point of view. My hope is that those silently reading, will be strengthened by the quoted Word of God... and see the folly of the opinions of men.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Chad wrote: "You respond to what you call heresy (when it is really just difference of opinion) with verbal assault, slander, and accusation?..."My response: Where have I "assaulted" or "slandered" anyone?
I suggest if a person's opinions are indefensible, that they should not post them publicly. In a public forum, they should expect public response (as Paul did with Peter).
Chad wrote: - Weak-faith Christians should be accepted, not ridiculed. People grow in faith through love and acceptance, not through ostracism...."My response: I know many new and weak Christians. Real Christians, when shown the Word of God, do NOT REJECT it or REDEFINE it...
...they seek God to show them why their previous positions are wrong.
Chad wrote: " The Lord has called us to serve, not judge. If he has been so merciful as to include us, we must let him be merciful to them, too...."My response: God showed mercy and grace to me, when I AGREED with Him and REPENTED of my sins...
...I would NOT have received His mercy if I stubbornly DISAGREED with Him and REJECTED His Word.
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As for judgment...
John 7:24 - "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment ."
Chad wrote: "Paul then warns the strong, who have the right doctrine but the wrong attitude: “Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean..."My response: We are NOT speaking of FOOD!
We are talking about Who GOD and JESUS is!
I do not consider Who God is to be a peripheral issue... like food!
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Jude 1:3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares , who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men , turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness , and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ .
Robert,Don't you think it is important to approach topics with humility so that people might actually see your point of view as a possibility rather yelling at people and quoting scripture to get your point across (as I have pointed out before, using all caps and exclamation points in online forums is yelling).
Yelling at people and quoting scripture in the same post labels you a hypocrite. Wouldn't you rather be someone who loving comes along side those who don't see things they way you do so that you can lovingly and humbly address where they are wrong, therefore they might come around and see your point of view?
Nobody, and I mean nobody will ever come to see your point of view with the way you come across in these discussion boards. I've noticed that most of the threads in this group shut down after you start posting with your "high and mighty" approach. Have you ever wondered why?
What is more important, for you to be right, or for you to be right and humble? Is the goal of your responses to help people come over to your point of view? Or to prove your knowledge of the scriptures?
When I joined this group I was really hoping to find a group of Christians discussing theology. What I have found is a moderator whose posts are so "high and mighty" that almost every single thread ends with you telling people they are heretics. Was the point of you starting this group to prove to people how much knowledge you have of the scriptures?
Knowledge does not equal understanding....
You still haven't acknowledged that there is legitimate disagreements amongst Christians. Clearly, the conversation was not about food... but food is what the disagreement was about in the early church. Just because the topic is now creation (this thread is about creation, not who God is), doesn't mean our approach to the disagreement should change from what Paul talks about in Romans 14.
Chad wrote: "Yelling at people and quoting scripture in the same post labels you a hypocrite...."1 Corinthians 4:3 - "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be JUDGED OF YOU , or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self."
Rod wrote: "Chad, I wouldn't assume that everyone who argues in a Christian chat group is a Christian. We should be able to tell by their love."I 100% agree with this statement. We should be able to tell by their love. And the only way to express love in an online forum is through humbly and respectfully presenting your side of an debate and responding in a kind and loving way any time someone disagrees.
Robert, does not seem to understand that.
Isn't our job as Christians to humbly, lovingly, and respectfully come along side those non-christians and Christians alike who have wayward view points on scripture so that they might one day see the error of their ways?
To come in yelling (with all caps and exclamation points) is not humble, respectful or loving and will quickly turn people away, even if you are 100% correct in what you are saying.
Chad wrote: "Nobody, and I mean nobody will ever come to see your point of view with the way you come across in these discussion boards...."My response: Thanks for your OPINION. However, the truth is MANY people reach out to me privately and thank me for bringing the Scriptures to light on the topics.
Chad wrote: "Is the goal of your responses to help people come over to your point of view? Or to prove your knowledge of the scriptures?..."My response; this is what God called me to do many years ago...
1 Timothy 4:16 - " Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt BOTH save thyself, and them that hear thee ."
Ephesians 4:15 - "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"
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To me it is VERY SAD to be in Christian groups where one is BERATED for QUOTING the Bible!
Chad wrote: "You still haven't acknowledged that there is legitimate disagreements amongst Christians...."My response: Of course there are disagreements among Christians... but when these disagreements are about essentials of the faith (i.e. Who God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are... how is one saved... etc.) strong rebuke is needed.
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2 Timothy 4:2 - "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke , exhort with all long suffering and doctrine ."
Titus 1:13 - "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them SHARPLY, that they may be sound in the faith ;"
Titus 2:15 - "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority . Let no man despise thee."
Chad wrote: "Robert, does not seem to understand that..."1 Corinthians 4:3 - "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be JUDGED OF YOU , or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self."
Robert wrote: "To me it is VERY SAD to be in Christian groups where one is BERATED for QUOTING the Bible!"First of all, I didn't berate you for quoting the Bible. I quoted the Bible myself...
So let's ask the group.
Who is doing the berating? Me (Chad) or Robert (the Moderator)?
To berate basically means to "angrily criticize".
On to the next thing...
Chad wrote: "Nobody, and I mean nobody will ever come to see your point of view with the way you come across in these discussion boards...."
My (Robert's) response: Thanks for your OPINION. However, the truth is MANY people reach out to me privately and thank me for bringing the Scriptures to light on the topics.
I'm sure many people do contact you privately and thank your for confirming their view point. I seriously doubt any person has ever been persuaded to change their view on a topic when reading threads on this forum based on your posts. If they have, it was a miracle, not your approach that changed their view.
Chad wrote: "First of all, I didn't berate you for quoting the Bible. I quoted the Bible myself......"My response; I did not say YOU have (yet)... others have. Scroll through the different discussions and you can see me compared with satan (because he quoted Scripture) and other similar comments.
Chad wrote: "I seriously doubt any person has ever been persuaded to change their view on a topic when reading threads on this forum based on your posts...."My response: thanks again for ANOTHER OPINION. Of course you are wrong. There have been those who did not know what they believed or had been taught something contrary to my posts, who have come to understand the TRUTH.
Good luck Chad. God bless you. We've all tried.Please join us in another group "why Christianity" if the negative atmosphere and self righteousness gets to be too much here.
Rod wrote: "Good luck Chad. God bless you. We've all tried.Please join us in another group "why Christianity" if the negative atmosphere and self righteousness gets to be too much here."
My response: I am curious Rod. Why did you have to start a new group when you are already the Moderator of one of the larger Christian groups?
I was asked to look after that group. It's not a place for serious discussion. More of a light book club. I prefer something more hardcore.
Rod wrote: "I was asked to look after that group. It's not a place for serious discussion. More of a light book club. I prefer something more hardcore."Oh, I see.
