Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Discussion: Exit West
i honestly do not find there are reasons offered in the book as to why nadia and saeed split up. i may be and probably am entirely wrong. i think they just split up, the way couples do, cuz they no longer love each other that way -- the way that makes them want to be together. does hamid say anything about it in the numerous interviews you guys have posted and which i haven't read? (sorry!). and again, why did he choose this plot development? he could have chosen to make them a good couple that sticks together. what is the narrative purpose of this separation? i can't get to the bottom of it.
Mod
Would’ve never thought I’d be so consumed by Nadia and Saeed’s world. Just Not Me. But, their relationship kept me turning the pages..... I don’t recall exactly why they broke up either now that you mention it. The fact that they may have grown apart makes it even more real for me. Uhh, yeh, that’s what we do in this here life.
George:
The London section was my second favorite part of the book after the Nadia/Saeed story. I’m thinking they spent more time in London than anywhere else if I’m not mistaken? The whole “dark London” area just seemed really fatalistic and menacing to me. The 40 acres and a pipe promised to the migrants was just hilarious to me. Hamid really reached his zenith in my opinion during this section.
jo wrote: "i honestly do not find there are reasons offered in the book as to why nadia and saeed split up. i may be and probably am entirely wrong. i think they just split up, the way couples do, cuz they no..."They get together initially because of the stress and un-reality of their lives in their country of origin. I agree with George on this. When one is young and living in an environment where merely surviving to the end of the week is a success, attraction is heightened (adrenaline rush is constant, whether from fear or awareness or other tension), and there's no point in evaluating a romantic partner on either her/his suitability for marriage or a committed relationship or any other long-term evaluation. So one doesn't. They get together because the circumstances make it easy, there's an attraction there, they are a refuge for one another in an uncertain setting, there's no reason not to.
When the stress goes away, and they both have more options, including the option to consider whether the relationship is satisfying, whether they want the same things, whether their attraction is lasting, they both determine over time that the answer is, 'none of the above'.
Their relationship is one of the things Hamid did best in this book, for me. At every stage, their actions and thoughts made sense, and they treated each other with kindness and respect and didn't engage in any intentional hurt. When they had the freedom in the US to choose what comes next, they chose paths other than each other. There wasn't enough commonality of purpose for them to build on, in any event. I have read hundreds of novels where couples part and are hurtful or cruel to one another, for no reason. I can't think of the last novel I read where an adult couple broke up this peacefully. In real life, I know many who have done so, and applauded Hamid for allowing Nadia and Saeed to act consistently with their characters at the event of their parting.
Returning to a topic that came up a couple of weeks in, Nadia's drug use, and is better discussed now that everyone's finished:I suspect that Hamid was using these two characters to explore the notion of who is a real threat to the Western world and likely to violate or disrespect its laws. To that end, IMO, he presented Saeed as the more conservative (personally, not politically), practicing Muslim selecting a Muslim girlfriend and community.
Saeed is the guy the TSA will be all over for years. He's the surface-embodiment of those characteristics that those who fear Muslims attend to. Nadia, on the other hand, is a woman of color, but is not practicing. Her sexual preferences and her choices to partake of recreational drags with some frequency, though, would be anathema to many of the same folks who want to close the borders to Muslims.
Why did it annoy me? I find it depressingly common that many of the strongest adherents of many faiths - whether Protestant, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim - characterize those without faith as being without morals and without adherence to conservative values. As if everyone without G-d or Allah is a libertine without moral judgment. I wish Nadia hadn't had to carry the weight as a non-believing character of demonstrating not only sexual freedom, but freedom to use hallucinegenic and other drugs on a daily basis. I just hate to see Hamid play into that assumption -- that, without G-d or Allah -- one is necessarily without any moral compass or instinct to abide by applicable laws or keep one's body pure (whatever that might mean to the individual).
It's not a big deal to me, and not critical to the novel, but something I wanted to raise eventually.
jo wrote: "George wrote: "The London scenes reminded me a lot of the movie, Children of Men. "good comparison! minus the violence though, yes? i remember the film (yikes) but i am not sure about the book. i..."
Thanks. I'm not familiar with the book either. Didn't know there was a book, actually. However, there was quite a bit of violence in the movie, particularly when the army moved in to try to take the woman. They were rounding up and cordoning off illegal immigrants into a section of a seaside town. Now I'll have to watch it again.
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Columbus wrote: "jo:Would’ve never thought I’d be so consumed by Nadia and Saeed’s world. Just Not Me. But, their relationship kept me turning the pages..... I don’t recall exactly why they broke up either now th..."
yeah, the 40 acres and a pipe caught my attention and cracked me up. The book certainly did seem to spend more time in London than the other foreign location, foreign to the characters, anyway. The thought of Muslim refugees being warped directly to Mykonos was amusing to me as well, as there could hardly be a less Islamic place by any standard. It's a party hardy island in the summer, with nude beaches and a very large gay community. Still there were some refugees there, just a lot fewer than on the Greek islands closer to Turkey.
Not to stray from important discussions, but about Nadia and Saeed ... :-)I think Hamid made the choice to allow and show the growth of the characters. I think we're invested in their relationship because it is a thing in itself, separate from the other explorations of this novel, and it doesn't have to serve the meaning of the novel, just serve the characters he created, if that makes any sense.
I thought their relationship developed very naturally and believably. Until the end when they each found very different love interests--that part seemed a little to pat of a finish. A little too much emphasis of yes, Saeed is "conservative", and yes, Nadia is "wild".
Mod
Columbus wrote: "jo, I think it’s wild that you had initially ntended to abandon-dnf this novel and then ended up giving it 5 stars and highly supportive. Were you just not feeling it, too brutal, slow, just not yo..."it was killing me. i thought it would be relentless pain all the way through. i loved it but it was too much hurt. then you guys said, noooooooo, it turns around. i believed you and the rest is history.
i can't imagine that anyone in europe might feel lukewarm about it. i am not in europe, of course, but my entire family is i have many italian friends on facebook. i follow the immigration situation closely because it's my country and it never stops being your country. those camps, those situations.... i've seen them in videos and reportage and it is close to the bone cuz it's not happening somewhere..... look, i read The Story of a Brief Marriage. it hurt tremendously, but we have ways of distancing ourselves from pain. i can't distance myself from this pain because i cannot imagine italy and europe with camps like this. i mean, i can, but it's not somewhere. we told ourselves SO MANY TIMES that it wouldn't happen again. it's such a staple of our understanding of ourselves -- NEVER AGAIN. and look, only 60 years later. no even a full generation. it's unthinkable to me.
i follow pope francis. he gives me hope in a christianity that is the way it should be. he visits these camps any chance he gets (they are down the street, you know). he talks about immigration constantly. he just cried with the rohingya. lately he wrote on his instagram (he does daily tweets and instragram posts, that's how cool he is): may god give us the gift to cry.
not everything pushes all my buttons -- we can't cry with the same intensity at everything because we'd die. but this book did. if you hadn't told me it ends well i wouldn't have been able to continue reading it.
i think hamid does a fantastic job of showing us a tragedy and then also, simply, poetically, with a great heart, giving us the blueprint of a world in which this tragedy is somehow solved. i love him for it.
jo wrote: "i think hamid does a fantastic job of showing us a tragedy and then also, simply, poetically, with a great heart, giving us the blueprint of a world in which this tragedy is somehow solved. i love him for it. , ..."In this novel Hamid takes tender care of his reader. He doesn't change the truth, but he doesn't bludgeon us with the truth either. I personally felt a little too protected, even by the writing in the beginning, but that's not a very rational criticism when I think about it, because there is no way to really understand how it feels for example to have your mother shot by random gunfire while going about her business. Unless it happens to you. And I can respect how many more readers Hamid has reached by his decision to take care of his readers and to provide a thread of hope, vs. holding our heads throughout to some very terrible realities.
jo wrote: "Columbus wrote: "jo, I think it’s wild that you had initially ntended to abandon-dnf this novel and then ended up giving it 5 stars and highly supportive. Were you just not feeling it, too brutal, ..."Well said, Jo.
I applaud authors to that can shine the light on issues with much dignity and humanity. They are truly gifted.
Up-thread there's commentary on Hamid's approach to violence. My perspective is not that he takes care of his readers' sensibilities by toning down the violence but that, instead, he treats it as the matter-of-fact part of existence which it is in most of the world, certainly all of the third world. Americans have a tendency to focus great attention on the grief of those who love victims of terrorism and criminal violence and even medical malpractice. It's part of our culture. It is not, however, universal. For anyone who has read the pile-on of dislike for Exit West from a thoughtful contingent on the TOB Group threads, there's an interesting --to me -- parallel of expectation certain readers might have for novels that are traditional, chronological, non-experimental fiction. A core of similar complaints about wishing the books were longer, the characters deeper, the violence more attended-to, if you will, have been directed in various groups with common membership toward Visitation by Jenny Erpenbeck and Signs Preceding the End of the World by Yuri Herrera. As with Exit West, both of those books are under 200 pages, highly focused on their themes and not focused on characters' emotional/inner response to tragedy or loss. We all like what we like, of course, and the echoes of those conversations are intriguing to compare and contrast with this discussion (which has been fascinating and wide-ranging).
very thoughtful comments from poingu and carol (and thank you beverly). i have been watching Mudbound (it takes me three sittings these days to get through a movie; it's sad but i accept it). i like it a lot, but my partner has qualms. he says that it's "portentous" and that "americans are in love with themselves" (neither of us was born here, though we have lived here for a tremendously long time now).
his critique makes me think of the ways in which violence is done in america -- specifically in the movies and in the real-life mass shootings, which bear some level of similarity. it's grand and loud and shocking. it's direct and in your face. it's not hamid-like, even though i found the way hamid deals with violence the opposite of gentle and care-taking! it was like being whacked over the head while you walk in the street and mind your own business (let us talk about the kids playing soccer with someone's head).
and maybe part of it is wanting to get away from violence porn, which is also, because we are so used to it here, often quite distancing (or, to use a popular word, normalizing). i think of the bodies dropping dead in vegas (real) and i find myself less shocked than by the representation of kids playing soccer with a man's had (fiction).
it's not that there are countries in which this is more matter of fact. we live in the most violent country in the world, statistically (this was true some time ago; haven't checked the stats recently).
i am not sure where i'm going with this but maybe this is where:
as i watch Mudbound i ask myself, what will it take to make the tremendous violence our american culture is soaked in real for americans? and the answer is, i don't know. hamid is understated and Mudbound is ponderous. how do we reach the minds of people who don't want to be reached?
Well, folks in Tupelo are "portentous" and that's all there is to it. Try reading William Faulkner some time, if you haven't already. I did once see a guy driving his pick up truck around with an umbrella in his gun rack, although that was in Greenville, not Tupelo. Got lots of Mississippi stories and I wasn't even there all that long although it did sorta feel like it. I got by telling folks I was German. Hey, I saw Easy Rider, and it's a whole lot easier being foreign than a Southerner gone bad.Anyway, I liked Mudbound, too. It certainly hit a lot of the right notes. Also liked your earlier comments as did everyone else.
In any case, I also thought the matter of fact presentation of violence in Exit West was very effective. It's omnipresent. Nadia and Saeed are immersed in it and it's all they can do to keep from drowning as their safe space gets smaller and smaller before disappearing entirely and we get to watch that unfold slowly to two very nice people, while watching others drown. Nothing to be done about it really other than flee.
So interesting what you said, Carol, about the portrayal of those without faith as being without morals and without adherence to conservative values. I hadn't thought of Nadia's character falling in line with this while I was reading, but completely agree with your frustration with this tendency. And George, that was beautifully put: their safe space gets smaller and smaller before disappearing entirely ...
Mod
Ok, I think we get the point. Many critics consider E.W. one of the absolute best books of the year and will likely stand the test of time. I’m still looking forward to reading his other work and sooner rather than later. Who’s with me? Probably Fundamentalist will Be first of the group.
https://chireviewofbooks.com/2017/12/...
George wrote: "In any case, I also thought the matter of fact presentation of violence in Exit West was very effective. It's omnipresent. Nadia and Saeed are immersed in it and it's all they can do to keep from drowning as their safe space gets smaller and smaller before disappearing entirely and we get to watch that unfold slowly to two very nice people, while watching others drown. Nothing to be done about it really other than flee."very nice, george.
columbus, i would join you, but i've already read Fundamentalist. we can do a buddy read for Moth Smoke and How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia. other groups do buddy reads and if it doesn't detract from the monthly read, it could be a thing we do too, no?
jo wrote: "George wrote: "In any case, I also thought the matter of fact presentation of violence in Exit West was very effective. It's omnipresent. Nadia and Saeed are immersed in it and it's all they can do..."I am in for a buddy read of moth smoke whenever ...
Mod
How are buddy reads done? Would you set up a thread for “buddy reads” and just recommend books in-line with the group subject? Sounds like an interesting idea.
I’m next in line for Moth Smoke @ Open Library and it’s a short read so I would be interested in reading that soon.
At the suggestion of my gr friend Carol ;-) I picked up How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia back in October. I would be in for a buddy read if/when the opportunity arises.
Columbus wrote: "jo wrote: "George wrote: "In any case, I also thought the matter of fact presentation of violence in Exit West was very effective. It's omnipresent. Nadia and Saeed are immersed in it and it's all ..."yes, that's how some groups do it. they put the book in the title and ask, anyone with me?
Monica wrote: "At the suggestion of my gr friend Carol ;-) I picked up How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia back in October. I would be in for a buddy read if/when the opportunity arises."Ha! I have my copy right on the shelf in my living room and might even re-read parts of it and join in ....
well, I'm willing to go with what folks prefer on the buddy read. I'm not familiar with any of his other works, so any of them work for me.and thanks Jo and Kathleen for the kind words.
Columbus, we can either set up a thread under the current "Book discussions" thread and name it "Discussion: Moth Smoke" or, if this group's mods want to keep the Book Discussion folder solely devoted to official group reads, a mod would need to set up a new folder entitled, "Buddy Reads" and then we could add threads under it for Moth Smoke, Rising Asia etc. as individuals align on a book.
the mods have to figure out if they think it might detracts from the monthly read. one consideration is that it might keep the group alive and busy even when the monthly read, for any reason at all, lags.
Mod
That sounds easy enough let me get consensus from the other mods and we’ll go from there.
Like George, I haven’t read any of this authors other books so whichever one is selected is fine with me.
No objections from me for the buddy read thread(s) but I feel they must be in another separate folder from the discussions or confusion would be rife. Before I read another of his works I want to read this one over again (and I very rarely read books twice). It was so short and it's points alluded to rather than bludgeoned that I feel a second go round would be worthwhile.
I spent some vacation time in Marin County, Muir Woods, the PCC (Pacific Coast Highway), hiking the hills and driving by the fancy estates... I can't get the image of Nadia making her way down those same hills from the refugee camp and tents, into the valley below to meet at the eatery. I had one of the best vegetarian sandwiches ever in a place out there just like that!
William wrote: "No objections from me for the buddy read thread(s) but I feel they must be in another separate folder from the discussions or confusion would be rife. Before I read another of his works I want to..."
well clearly the last part plunges directly into post-apocalyptic. whereas the greece camp sounds realistic in the present, already the london camp crosses into some kind of future.
jo wrote: "William wrote: "No objections from me for the buddy read thread(s) but I feel they must be in another separate folder from the discussions or confusion would be rife. Before I read another of his..."
True, I do remember London as dark and foreboding and Marin as bright and hopeful. Probably that hopefulness towards the end is what makes so many critics applaud it. But is there any real cause for hope? Given they're determined effort by those in charge to drive the car off the cliff.
I suppose that depends on whether you're talking about hope for Nadia and Saeed or hope for their country.
William wrote: "jo wrote: "William wrote: "No objections from me for the buddy read thread(s) but I feel they must be in another separate folder from the discussions or confusion would be rife. Before I read ano..."
i think that hamid very deliberately gives us a utopia at the end. the book ends both dystopically and utopically. i found it daring and brave, cuz utopias tend not to be successful literary endeavors. i really appreciated his faith in humanity. i needed it.
jo wrote: "George wrote: "In any case, I also thought the matter of fact presentation of violence in Exit West was very effective. It's omnipresent. Nadia and Saeed are immersed in it and it's all they can do..."I have read all of Mohsin Hamid books except for Moth Smoke, so I am up for reading this book as a buddy read.
I am so glad that Exit West is shining the light on this author who is one of the authors writing about the Middle East that I find writes with such dignity, humanity, and honesty that I feel speaks to my heart and soul.
The other two authors writing about contemporary issues regarding the Middle East and the diaspora of those who have left is Kamila Shamsie whose most recent release Home Fire is also on several lists for top reads for 2017 and the other one is Nadeem Aslam
BTW - For the past year or so it seems my reading is aligned with the Chicago Review of Books that I am beginning to believe I need to move to Chicago. :)
nadim aslam is a precious being. i do however confess to finding it problematic to group south asia with the middle east. middle eastern writers should get their spot in the sun!
Mod
Speaking of Chi Review of Books. Wow! Did you see their best of 2017? It’s not a POC book but a friend of mine have been raving about Lillian Boxfish for months now.
jo wrote: "nadim aslam is a precious being. i do however confess to finding it problematic to group south asia with the middle east. middle eastern writers should get their spot in the sun!"
Yes, you are right.
An each of the authors mentioned speak to the world that they know and sometimes the issues they speak to - overlap for me in the issues that we are dealing with in these confusing time.
Glad you like Nadeem Aslam
I am about to read his latest The Golden Legend so I guess I about to visit Pakistan via reading.
Columbus wrote: "Beverly wrote: "jo wrote: "George wrote: "In any case, I also thought the matter of fact presentation of violence in Exit West was very effective. It's omnipresent. Nadia and Saeed are immersed in ..."Actually I just finished Mother of All Pigs from that list. It is set in Jordan.
And I am currently reading/listening to Stephen Florida.
And you would think that I have already read Lillian Boxfish Takes a Walk as an ex-New Yorker and a walker but not yet.
There are just so many wonderful books to read and just not enough time.
Mod
In the meantime, the mods can work on how to set this up. I like that second option that Carol came up with or a variation of it.
That works. I can get a copy by then.
Columbus wrote: "Ok, anyone up for discussing Moth Smoke by this months featured author Mohsin Hamid beginning Dec 17th (or before?) Maybe every other day we could select how many pages..."this is too soon for me, as i'm also trying to do the Tournament of Books extravaganza. NOT TO DERAIL THE NOBLE IMPULSE TO READ ALL OF HAMID'S WORK, but i'm about to read Percival Everett's So Much Blue, so if anyone is intrigued by that..... i mean, i'll read it regardless, is what i'm sayin.
I am feeling deprived not having read Exit West. Will have to get a copy. Sorry I missed the discussion
Mod
EW
http://ew.com/books/the-10-best-books...
Buzzfeed
https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/aria...
Paste Magazine
https://www.pastemagazine.com/article...
Mod
I would highly encourage it. So topical and important. We could easily re-start a conversation I’m certain there’s something we overlooked. Maybe.
Mod
https://www.economist.com/news/books-...
Columbus wrote: "Ronald wrote: "I am feeling deprived not having read Exit West. Will have to get a copy. Sorry I missed the discussion"I would highly encourage it. So topical and important. We could easily re-st..."
the Tournament of Book will have a big thread on this in March. let's keep our memories fresh!
none of my libraries have Moth Smoke but i think i can find it cheap online (not amazon tho; enough with this bullshit). i however have How to Get Rich waiting for me today.
Columbus wrote: "Even The Economist agrees. This best list also includes Stay with Me my favorite book of the year as well.https://www.economist.com/news/books-......"
Thanks for sharing!
Exit West is making just about every 'Best of Lists' !!!
Mod
I would highly encourage it. So topical and important. We c..."
How about https://t.alibris.com/Moth-Smoke-Mohs...
POWELL'S HAS FREE SHIPPING TODAY (and maybe more) SO MOTH SMOKE IS HAPPENING!
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
The Leavers (other topics)What It Means When a Man Falls from the Sky (other topics)
Exit West (other topics)
What It Means When a Man Falls from the Sky (other topics)
Exit West (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Percival Everett (other topics)Mohsin Hamid (other topics)
Mohsin Hamid (other topics)
Nadeem Aslam (other topics)
Kamila Shamsie (other topics)
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good comparison! minus the violence though, yes? i remember the film (yikes) but i am not sure about the book. i seem to remember there was no violence. am i right?