Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Discussion: Exit West
That's a good interview. Thanks for sharing that, Columbus.
Columbus wrote: "Recent article in Foreign Policy magazine:http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/17/d..."
A beautiful quote from the Foreign Policy interview:
"I think it is likely, in two or three or 400 years, people on planet Earth will think back about our time and think that those who thought it was right to prevent someone from moving from one country to the other simply because they were born in one place are as barbaric as we think slaveholders are today."
What a wonderful perspective. (And I hope it's a bit sooner than hundreds of years!)
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Hamid started this US book tour in Ra..."
Wow, what a story, Carol. I actually read that right after you posted it. Being thinking about it since then. I honestly questioned myself while watching the interview why he would choose to live in Pakistan - with children.
Thanks so much for sharing that and I have something else to add to that later.
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http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/17/d..."
A beauti..."
Yes indeed, Joelle. You know after reading the article and watching the video’s I’m committed to reading all of his books now. Those three pieces just did it for me.
Fascinating, Carol! Two people experiencing the same thing and such different responses. Interesting choice to raise his kids in Pakistan; definite benefit to the kids to know their grandparents, though I admit I keep thinking about what we hear about the Pakistani government ere in N. America.
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Lata, you’re right, he has made mention more than once about the grandparents. I totally can understand that and in a lot of ways I really respect him for that. But goodness, what a decision one would have to make.
As those that are further along in the book will know a similar decision to this real life one has to be made.
Damn these civil wars.
Carol wrote: "The video of Hamid's book reading at Politics and Prose reminded me, in combination with the above comments, of two moments from the book reading I attended. Hamid started this US book tour in Ra..."
I loved this story, and am so glad you shared it, Carol!
It reminds me of a quote I particularly loved in the book:
“Young men pray for different things, of course, but some young men pray to honor the goodness of the men who raised them, and Saeed was very much a young man of this mold.”
Perhaps Hamid is attached to a somewhat idealized view out of a strong respect for family and tradition. But I agree with Columbus--what a decision to have to make.
On this theme of family, tradition and where one raises one's kids:I was active in another GR's group's discussion of The Hate U Give a few months back when the question was raised of whether the father in the story was selfish for continuing to reside in the 'hood, as it were, rather than move out to the (perceived to be safer) suburbs, a move he could afford to make. He didn't want to desert the neighborhood he grew up in, but wanted to be part of being a good influence, bringing good things to it, making certain his kids knew who they were and where they were from.
This discussion also reminds me of a good friend on this platform who after obtaining a world-class education, spent several years in a finance job in London, and moved back to Pakistan. i believe he's in his mid-30s. He posted one day in connection with a book review about his family's home, on the property of which his family has had its residence for more than 400 years -- not the current building, but a building - and that the current home shows addition after addition from which they can trace back several generations.
I have not heard Hamid speak to this point - only the multi-generational explanation -- but I wonder if educated Pakistanis feel a sense of connection, perhaps even obligation, and wanting to be part of good things in Pakistan, and for their kids to be raised where they were, knowing their people, their history, their culture and being part of positive change. Yes, there's a risk, but ... there's a risk to living in Israel, South Africa, Egypt .... the United States. Life is full of risk. If all the smart, educated people leave, what hope does Pakistan have?
Just a thought.
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This section starts a little chaotic with people running around in a sort of frenzy. Phone and internet service down and very few vegetables or other grocery items on the shelves at the market.
-Then Nadia goes to her bank to take out money and she's sexually. assaulted by a customer in line. Yes, that was a sexual assault in my opinion. The fact that this assault took place during the day amongst a crowded group of people made it even more disturbing. During a conflict in some war-torn country you frequently hear of rape but usually it's soldiers against civilians not civilians on civilians.
-Saeed's mother is killed. Shot in the head.
-Nadia and Saeed travel trough the door and arrives in Greece.
-The end of chapter 6 or Part 2 of our discussion Saeed and Nadia leaves Mykonos.
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I found that I did get taken out of Nadia and Saeed’s story by the interludes. That said, I did like a couple of these mini-stories. I think I would have preferred fewer of these as I thought the author’s intent was conveyed adequately through the main characters’ story.
I know what you mean about being taken out of the story, but I liked the interludes. They were short enough to be just little vignettes about other places, and I thought it sort of went with the whole doors and a different way to travel idea.
The first vignette in Australia was pretty confusing for me. As I alluded to in my first post, I thought that Hamid was laying down threads to be picked up on later in the book. I didn't know that these were self-contained little asides. This was also his first introduction of the "doors" concept. I didn't at the time know what to make of it. If only real life were as simple as walking through a door to a new reality! Though even in this fiction its not an easy transition. Towards the end of the book I liked them much better because I understood them to be short looks into other peoples experiences with their doors.
That was my experience, too, as I found myself warming to the views of these other lives, and I ended up enjoying them more as I continued in the book.(I should mention I experienced this book in audio. Mohsin Hamid narrated the whole book, and I really liked how he read Nadia and Saeed.)
Columbus wrote: "Video of the author speaking at DC’s Politics and Prose:https://youtu.be/_xVM7xEMJPk..."
I love the Politics & Prose author sessions, I usually find them on CSPAN's BookTV.
I really liked the analogy of the doors in the story, and how Hamid describes it during his reading in this YouTube is very poignant... immigration is not about the journey or how we get there, but about things left behind, and the difficulties of popping into a new reality. About dying, and about being born again, Hamid says.
I thought it was ingenious, and very brave, for the author to insert this kind of magical realism into a story with so many harsh realities. It's a device that takes the story over into the realm of folktale.
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http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/...
just wanted to say hi and that i am following all comments. very nice conversation!
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Columbus wrote: "I think it was Carol (forgive me if I’m wrong) earlier who mentioned being a little uncomfortable with Nadia’s alcohol use. I’m not sure why I continued to feel a little uncomfortable with the drug..."no. why did it bother you?
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To be perfectly honest I’m not exactly sure why. It wasn’t something that I found truly despicable or caused lingering contempt or scorn over. But, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t cause me to pause a bit over. I’m certainly not prudish on drug use at all. Can’t really put my finger on it.
A review or article I read somewhere brought it up as well but I can’t seem to find it now. If I do I’ll let you know.
Columbus wrote: "I think it was Carol (forgive me if I’m wrong) earlier who mentioned being a little uncomfortable with Nadia’s alcohol use. I’m not sure why I continued to feel a little uncomfortable with the drug..."I don't recall flagging her alcohol use as a concern, per se, but I may have. If so, like you, it's not an issue of being prudish or having disdain for those who partake. Nadia's choice/s did mean that I ultimately preferred and related more to Saeed and his values as demonstrated from the time they arrive at their final destination to the end of the novel. I don't think the group has gotten there yet, so I'll hold my comments on the point I think Hamid was raising albeit subtlely with Nadia's personal choice to partake of both lawful and unlawful drugs throughout Exit West.
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No, you were right. It was her pot use you identified more pointedly.
I ultimately became annoyed with Nadia's pot use, but I would have felt 90% of the same annoyance if her choice had been cigarettes or whiskey.
The author talked about this as well and for the life of me I just can’t find it. Figures. I think the gist was that readers had brought this to his attention and he wanted to speak on it. If anyone can find it please share it.
As I said, there was a trigger for me as well. Maybe it just appeared rather frequent and the contrast with Saeed. I don’t know.
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it's definitely a political novel. it takes a strong political stance about nationality/nationalism, global justice, immigration, and inclusion. it's also political because it addresses perceptions of islam (for western readers) and thus, it seems to me, tackles islamophobia head on. finally, it seems to provide the blueprints for a truly just and diverse world, in which people relate to each other as people rather than as members of this or that group. i didn't find it preachy at all. extremely poetic, instead.
I don't think it's a classical political novel, because it doesn't seek to change or impact a particular country's politics or political/economic structure. When you referenced political novels in the classic sense, I thought of the Russian and South American novelists seeking to shine a light on corruption, treachery amongst the ruling class or revolutionaries, as applicable. Here, Hamid's purpose is to change hearts and minds across the West. It is the embodiment of his point that freedom to live one's life shouldn't depend on the accident of happening to be born in Country X vs Country Z.
I agree with Carol that it is a changing hearts and minds novel, and political in that sense.I thought the way he tackles Islamophobia was brilliant, in the way he shows two people who have very different (and complex) feelings about their country's religion, who still love and accept each other. Bingo.
jo wrote: "it's also political because it addresses perceptions of islam (for western readers) and thus, it seems to me, tackles islamophobia head on."While I agree with the point in effect, I didn't see the novel as tackling Islamophobia. In fact honestly, I didn't see Islam addressed that much at all. We know the main characters were Muslim how? Because the novel was peppered with calls to prayer, Nadia wore a flowing black robe, and there were no public displays of affection. In my mind that was it for the most part. I think your first statement is absolutely correct. It addresses perceptions of Islam for Western readers. I thought the references to Islam were pretty tepid. I thought the book more assailed Xenophobia.
Monica wrote: "jo wrote: "it's also political because it addresses perceptions of islam (for western readers) and thus, it seems to me, tackles islamophobia head on."While I agree with the point in effect, I di..."
I thought Hamid's treatment of Islam was both familiar and revelatory. Both Saeed and Nadia were young moderns who treated their religion much the same as most people treat their religions today, regardless of the religion or the locale. So, it was familiar that they used what was convenient and discarded or ignored the inconvenient parts of doctrine/practice of their religion. And this was also revelatory to me, probably because as a westerner who has little or no knowledge of Islam, I am the product of the media -- I only know about the extremes of Islam, from terrorism to misogyny. What a relief it was to read that both Saeed and Nadia were just normal humans.
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I liked this from chapter 8
- But in the nearby house of his fellow countryfolk the man with the white-marked beard spoke of martyrdom, not as the most desirable outcome but as one possible end of a path the right minded had no other choice but to follow, and advocated a banding together of migrants along religious principles, cutting across divisions of race or language or nation, for what did those divisions matter now in a world full of doors, the only divisions that mattered now were between those who sought the right of passage and those who would deny them passage, and in such a world the religion of the righteous must defend those who sought passage.
-I love how Hamid makes several references to the United States. Such as Nadia and Saeed only need “forty meters and a pipe” to live in London of course a possible reference to “forty acres and a mule” a promise to freed slaves.
-Saeed is informed by his cousin while in London that his father has died from pneumonia.
-At the end of this section (chap 7-9), Nadia and Saeed feels they are losing something in their relationship.
-"Saeed wanted to feel for Nadia what he had always felt for Nadia, and the potential loss of this feeling left him unmoored, adrift in a world where one could go anywhere but still find nothing."
-Nadia just felt sorrow and thought "they were better than this."
-They also decide to give up their place on the housing list and travel to the city of Marin near San Francisco.
Janice(JG) wrote: "And this was also revelatory to me, probably because as a westerner who has little or no knowledge of Islam, I am the product of the media -- I only know about the extremes of Islam, from terrorism to misogyny. What a relief it was to read that both Saeed and Nadia were just normal humans."janice this is precisely what i had in mind when i said that hamid tackles islamophobia. the origin of a lot of hatred is just not knowing the other at all. it's hard to hate a group you are intimately familiar with, because very often the individuals are lovely and the those who earn hatred as so very few. hamid has only so much space (this book could have been another door stopper but hamid decided to make it compressed, something that we might also discuss) so he chose to show us a devout muslim who is nothing if not gentle and loving, and a non-devout muslim who goes around in a big black dress, at first because it's safer for her, eventually because.... (this is also something we could discuss! nadia and her dress!). this is precisely what literature does, isn't it? give us access to the thoughts and feelings of people who are difficult to access directly.
I hate when I've sent a book back to the library and lose the context, but early on in chapter 7, I believe around page 135 in my edition, Saeed talks of a night of shattered glass in London. This of course is an allusion to the famous Kristallnacht of Nazi Germany. More about that here: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....If things were getting that bad then leaving for Marin County was the prudent thing to do. Just as many Jews after Kristallnacht decided leaving Europe would be best.
I thought it must have really been tongue in cheek that Hamid depicted Marin County as an impoverished and massive refugee camp. Isn't Marin close to if not the richest county in the U.S.?
i also returned the book to the library but i think i was perplexed about the reasons why nadia and saeed decided to leave london. and i also wondered about marin hahah. i guess a simple internet search would answer that question but why bother when there are smart interlocutors who can answer? ;)
As per Forbes, Marin hasn't made it into the top ten for household income, but it certainly is a wealthy county.
Marin county is one of the richest, but Marin City which is unincorporated is not. It was one of the few places that African Americans working in the shipyards during WWII were allowed housing. Wikipedia says it's current socioeconomic and racial makeup contrasts with the wealthy and Caucasian population of the rest of the county.In the book, Marin is described as "overwhelmingly poor, all the more so in comparison to the sparkling affluence of San Francisco." So Nadia and Saeed are living among a diverse community in a small town just across the bridge from great wealth.
Laurie wrote: "Marin county is one of the richest, but Marin City which is unincorporated is not. It was one of the few places that African Americans working in the shipyards during WWII were allowed housing. Wik..."thank you laurie!
I think Nadia and Saeed left London because their relationship was hrowing apart and they were feeling despair about that so they both decided to leave London as a kind of reconciliation, or an attempt at loving each other like they used to. I returned the library book so I can’t pull the quote but I that’s what I remember thinking. I really enjoyed the love story in Exit West. As a political novel, I also think it was pretty tepid.
jo wrote: "this is precisely what literature does, isn't it? give us access to the thoughts and feelings of people who are difficult to access directly...."Yes, exactly!
Aleatha wrote: "I think Nadia and Saeed left London because their relationship was hrowing apart and they were feeling despair about that so they both decided to leave London as a kind of reconciliation, or an att..."am i remembering correctly that it was nadia who mostly wanted to leave, and the impetus behind leaving london?
I thought they wanted to leave London because the immigrants were beginning to self segregate back into their own dissparite groups. Their commonality was distilling back into geographic/cultural exclusivity leaving Nadia and Saeed once again isolated and "othered".
Monica wrote: "I thought they wanted to leave London because the immigrants were beginning to self segregate back into their own dissparite groups. Their commonality was distilling back into geographic/cultural e..."Yes, that's how I remember it.
Nadia made the suggestion to leave London and Saeed accepted because he was feeling sorrow from losing their love. Here is the quote from Chapter 9 (sorry it is pretty long but I couldn’t cut anything without losing context)
“ Saeed wanted to feel for Nadia what he had always felt for Nadia and the potential loss of this feeling left him unmoored, adrift in a world where one could go anywhere and still find nothing. He was certain that he cared for her and wished good for her and wanted to protect her. She was the entirety of his close family now, and he valued family above all, and when the warmth between them seemed lacking his sorrow was immense, so immense that he was uncertain whether all his losses had not combined into a core of loss, and in this core, this center, the death of his mother and the death of his father and the possible death of his ideal self who had loved his woman so well were like a single death that only hard work and prayer might allow him to withstand. Saeed made it a point to smile with Nadia, at least sometimes, and he hoped she would feel something warm and caring when he smiled, but what she felt was sorrow and the sense that they were better than this, and that together they had to find a way out.”
...
“AND SO WHEN SHE SUGGESTED one day, out of the blue, under the drone-crossed sky and in the invisible network of surveillance that radiated out from their phones, recording and capturing and logging everything, that they abandon this place, and give up their position on the housing list, and all they had built here, and pass through a nearby door she had heard of, to the new city of Marin, on the Pacific Ocean, close to San Francisco, he did not argue, or even resist, as she thought he might, and instead he said yes, and both of them were filled with hope, hope that they would be able to rekindle their relationship, to reconnect with their relationship...”
this is fantastic aleatha. thank you for the great work. there are such fabulous points here to cover aren't there? i hope to be able to come back to it later!
okay lemme try. first, london (suddenly this passage jogged my memory!) was a "decent" place in which to live, but it was also a very regimented surveillance state. some people give up freedom for comfort (most people!), but not our nadia. this seems to me a strong indictment of totalitarian societies of all stripes -- including "democracies".
the other thing that is very striking to me is this dying out of nadia's and saeed's relationship, and the emphasis, in this passage, on the loss he feels, not of her, but of the "ideal self who had loved his woman so well." this seems to me a very astute representation of the death of love/romance. we don't miss the person, but us in that relationship, the pleasure we felt, the immensity of the feelings of wellbeing and completeness. it seems a beautiful description of the end of love.
finally, "his woman" and "only hard work and prayer might allow him to withstand" speak to me of a patriarchal mentality in saeed that is fueled by his embracing of certain religious values, however kind and loving they might be. are you kind and loving when you think your woman is "yours"? no simple answer to that.
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
The Leavers (other topics)What It Means When a Man Falls from the Sky (other topics)
Exit West (other topics)
What It Means When a Man Falls from the Sky (other topics)
Exit West (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Percival Everett (other topics)Mohsin Hamid (other topics)
Mohsin Hamid (other topics)
Nadeem Aslam (other topics)
Kamila Shamsie (other topics)
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Hamid started this US book tour in Raleigh (shout out to Quail Ridge Bookstore, an independent), and a sibling of his attended. The front end of both book readings -- P&P and QR --was largely identical, of course. Then came the Q&A.
During the Q&A, an attendee inquired (respectfully) about Hamid's life in Pakistan and why he chooses to live and raise his children there, impliedly because of the threat of violence and instability. Hamid responded by describing a typical school day. He lives next door to his parents. In the morning, his kids get up and go next door and have breakfast with their grandparents, then someone (I don't recall whom) takes them to school. When they get home from school, they run back to their grandparents' home and talk about their day and relax, and come back for dinner. It sounded idyllic (to me), and told the story of how his return to Pakistan has given his kids something incredibly special that grounds them, that links them through generations, and that wouldn't be possible anywhere else. In the course of his response, he also mentioned as an aside that when he was growing up, things were largely peaceful, e.g., no bombs at schools or other publicly threat of violence.
Hamid's sister challenged his statement about safety/violence when they were growing up, specifically, she asked him if he'd forgotten a bomb going off at their school when they were kids. They went back and forth for a few exchanges. It was clear that the bombing happened and that it impacted her forever. It was also clear that Hamid truly doesn't recall that bombing, and it is not part of his experience as he views it. The exchange suggested that these siblings who love each other dearly will likely never agree on Hamid's decision to raise his kids in Pakistan. His sister is bewildered at his ability to block out the threat and forget his own personal experience of violence. Hamid, on the other hand, doesn't think he's forgotten anything that matters. His very choice to go home and stay there lives out his commitment to hope as a constant.
As I read the book subsequently, and am now recalling it, it reminded me of how humans can share one single, awful, horrific, scary experience, and yet some internalize it, are fearful, tormented, have difficulty ever moving on and processing the sadness and terror, and others just move on and either block the event out or somehow diminish its importance so that it's not a barrier to any future. Nadia reminds me of this throughout the book. She is one who moves on. She lives. Hamid at the beginning of his book reading at Politics & Prose focuses on the sadness and homesickness of those who leave. Nadia and Saeed display two approaches to leaving and moving forward, and neither is either universal or incorrect.