Any tips on building a long and complicated outline?

[Andrea]

I'm trying to write an outline for my new book. Over the past few years I've written random scenes, and then I listed and described them, and now i'm trying to piece them together in order. This is obviously the most backwards way of creating an outline. I'm figuring I could build a basic structure (beginning, rising action, climax, falling action, conclusion) and then add the scenes around that.

Anyone just have any general tips on how they do their outlines or any advice? Much appreciated!

[Ingrid, Just another writer.]

There are so many ways writers plan their stories, I don't blame you. At first I tried downloading a bunch of writer software that would "organize your outline" for you, but b/c I'm a visual, low-key kind of person I now use mindmaps and concept maps for planning, and some pantsing (freewriting) inbetween

For more formal advice, have you tried reading one of the more popular posts here on plotting your outline. It's called How to Write a Plot Outline in 8 Easy Steps, and I often look to it: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Andrea]

Ingrid wrote: "There are so many ways writers plan their stories, I don't blame you. At first I tried downloading a bunch of writer software that would "organize your outline" for you, but b/c I'm a visual, low-k..."

Ingrid, I went over the guideline for creating a compelling plot, and it's so very informative. I've written all my 8 points, but my issue is more with the subplot of my novel. I want something going on in the background--sort of a subtle forewarning that will eventually creep up into the main plot later. And I can try the mindmap idea to organize my scenes, but its all so very overwhelming! I think my main problem is that my main plot is an emotional one, and I need more 'action' in my plot. I just need a good idea I can use that will fit in with everything else.

[Ingrid, Just another writer.]

Andrea wrote: "Ingrid wrote: "There are so many ways writers plan their stories, I don't blame you. At first I tried downloading a bunch of writer software that would "organize your outline" for you, but b/c I'm ..."

I understand completely, Andrea. It's tricky b/c I can't think of any other way that wouldn't be time consuming, but I currently use that (mindmaps and the 8-sequence outline) along with something called the Snowflake Method. The Snowflake Method I feel starts you with a basic summary of your novel and helps you expand to include full-page character profiles, plot synopses, and scene descriptions that will lead up to each subplot. If you have the time to spare, you can check out a free article about it here: https://www.advancedfictionwriting.co...

On another note, I know that with the NaNoWriMo competition coming out, I'll definitely run into that prob. of being stuck in a pitless scene, so I would probably expand on your characters a little more. I've noticed a lot in books and tv shows/cinema, every scene in a book is about your character (or the characters surrounding them) growing from who they once were and representing the theme of the novel. Walter White from the show Breaking Bad, is a good example. Every 'scene' in the show where he's either making meth, being with his family, or making ends meet leads to a 'lesson' Walter or the audience learns about him, and brings him closer to his character transformation to a complete badass (I know this is very simplified but bare with me). So if you can't think of a good scene for a chapter, you can always start with 2 or 3, and then say "Is this enough to get across what I want about so and so by the end of this chapter?"

Hope I helped a little:)

[Andrea]

Ingrid wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Ingrid wrote: "There are so many ways writers plan their stories, I don't blame you. At first I tried downloading a bunch of writer software that would "organize your outline" for yo..."

I tried the mind mapping thing. I think it helped a little. I'm also using tips from James Patterson in how he does his outlines and I think I'm making progress. Thanks!

[Ingrid, Just another writer.]

Andrea wrote: "Ingrid wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Ingrid wrote: "There are so many ways writers plan their stories, I don't blame you. At first I tried downloading a bunch of writer software that would "organize your ..."


I'm glad it's working out for you. Let me know how things turn out in the long run!

[Ingrid, Just another writer.]

Sarah wrote: "There are many helpful advice that I may look into in the future as I am in the early stages in planning my own novel series out. Recently I have been starting to look into scrivener as I hear its ..."

Good luck using Scrivener then , Sarah! I think I've tried it before, but I've never been great with committing to software tools for my writing. The bit about knowing how to end your novel is all too true...what I'm sure all writers are using as a guideline for their NaNo novels. Let me know how that works out for you!

[Andrea]

I have like basic plot points that I know I want to happen, but how to connect them is my problem. I'm also struggling with actually coming up with ideas. For example my main character is a criminal and he suspects this woman he hires to be a spy. He wants to test her, to see if she breaks or screws up and reveals herself, but how do you test to see if someone is a spy? I think I have to resort to watching some Bond movies or something.

[Ingrid, Just another writer.]

Andrea wrote: "I have like basic plot points that I know I want to happen, but how to connect them is my problem. I'm also struggling with actually coming up with ideas. For example my main character is a crimina..."

I get what you mean, Andrea. It can be hard to get a story as complex as yours going w/o personal experience with it. Mine is a political-drama, so research and watching my favorite political shows are what I go to sometimes. I always find though that writing stories that are 'out of your personal realm' are not much different than 'normal' stories with regular people; As long as you know what purpose you want your story to have (i.e why the ending is the way it is, and how you want readers to relate), the story can be written in the same 'formatting' so to speak, given that you're following the same themes/lessons as a 'normal version of it.

I might not be making much sense for you but here's an example of what I mean.

Ex 1: A plot equal in complexity to yours might go like this: "A noble man befriends a deviant group who convince him to kill the controversial Roman king, and when he does all hell breaks loose."

Ex 2: However, a "regular" plot might go something like this: "A shy teen girl befriends a group of outcasts who convince her to sabotage the Queen Bee of their high school, and when she does, the social hierarchy of their high school collapses."

Example 1, if you guessed, is the plot for "Julius Caesar" and Example 2 is the plot for "Mean Girls", which as you can see is a 'real-life' adaptation of Julius Caesar. Both carry the same themes of fighting monarchical societies but one is more easier to relate to than the other. The same plot points in Mean Girls are the same as with Julius Caesar, just with different settings.

I think you get my point that it's not so much as "getting the accuracy of a spy/criminal" correctly as it is showing the dynamics and themes learned between the characters. Why does the criminal feel the need to test her? What motives does the woman truly have? I'm not saying that research isn't an important role in all of this, but if you're just starting out with your book, and you don't want to be blocked with writer's block, you should put the research on the backburner and write with the ending and themes in mind.

[Andrea]

Ingrid wrote: "Andrea wrote: "I have like basic plot points that I know I want to happen, but how to connect them is my problem. I'm also struggling with actually coming up with ideas. For example my main charact..."

That's a good way of looking at it. I'll try brainstorming an outline in your point of view. Thanks for your help!

[Don]

Well, you're not going to find alot of help from formally taught writers. You have a method that is actually better than what most use.

Your approach is instinctual. So you should first and foremost try to tell the best story you can. You should structure the plot how you feel it naturally occuring in your head. Writing themes shouldn't even be a concern because those are what others will derive from the story. As for Character development and Pacing, those can be expanded upon after you're finished with the story itself.