"The Bear and the Nightingale" Final Thoughts *Spoilers*

[Sarah]

This will be the thread for the full discussion of The Bear and the Nightingale.

[Kim]

I'm glad it wasn't as bad as previous Russian fantasy books. I managed to get through it only half-hating most of the characters.

[Ilona]

I wish the author showed before the fourth of the book a little of what they do for the others, because the blurb already said so and I didn't have a clue why except they got the stories.

The blurb was misleading bc it let us think the bad guy was the step-mother.

It really looks like a fairy tale that has been lengthened to include the everyday life in the beginning of a fairy tale, then lot of slice-of-life when we are supposed to be in the middle, then a conflict that is more solved by others and not the MC. Well I suppose it stays true because in many fairy tale, the MC wins mostly thanks with many helps or things given.

I also with since it is a novel it had more fleshed characters.

[Alyssia]

I surprised myself by really enjoying this; it had a sort of comforting homely feel that was at odds with the at times far darker aspects of the novel. It felt like a proper faerie tale without all the Disney coddling that has taken them over in the last thirty odd years if not longer.

I'm not sure I'll be interested in reading the sequel though as it sounds like it's more of a journey style book which doesn't appeal anywhere near as much.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I really enjoyed most of this right up until the end. I felt like the ending was abrupt and not a whole lot was explained.

Morozka (I'm probably spelling that wrong- I'm sorry!) has been searching for her the whole book because he needed her for something, but I don't really understand what? Was it just so that she could be the bait trap for the bear and her father could come sacrifice himself for her? It seems like he had some connection to her grandmother which is never really explained either.

I know there is a second book but that ending left a lot to be desired.

[Christopher]

I enjoyed the first third or so of this book where we are hearing tales and learning about the characters and the world they live in. I liked the Russian folklore in their various incarnations.

Once it got to the conflict with the Bear on his way I lost a lot of what interested me and it felt less original. As stated by others the fact that Pyotr saves the day felt a little of a letdown given how much has been built up regarding the MC's "power" and the blue jewels didn't add up to much, at least not in this book (Poor Dunya! She dies because she gave out the jewels too late? Or not sure really why).

I also didn't love the corrupted preacher storyline, he and Anna just seemed too dumb to be interesting. Devolved into a "burn the witch" vs. "let's keep the old ways" battle that didn't feel that original or interesting.

Still I liked that first third and the writing was decent! So 3 stars.

[Chris]

I really liked how Anna and Irina were presented, though a lot more could have been done to flesh them out. Anna was a mirror character. She has the same gift for seeing spirits as Vasya does, but the socially accepted explanations - madness and evil - make her miserable, dysfunctional, and eventually a villain. That could be Vasya's fate, if she gives in to society's interpretations. We don't see much of Irina's personality, but I like how she loves both her mother and her step-siblings. It must be a hard position, and maybe she will have to make a tough choice in a later book.

[Jennifer]

I really enjoyed this book. The setting in Russia with the folktales was fun. I also liked how most of the characters were portrayed, particularly how Winter/Death could be both harsh and cruel, but also warm and kind.

I agree with Sarah, in that the ending left me with questions that I felt should have been resolved. Why did Winter need her to wear his talisman? I thought it would be leading up to the two of them combining power somehow. Once he got her in his realm and she recovered, he doesn't seem to want her involved in actually facing his brother. Wasn't that the whole purpose? Is it because he is soft on her or is the true purpose of the talisman going to be addressed in book 2?

The storyline involving the church didn't bother me too much as I can easily see how a man of faith, who wants to be special in the eyes of the people for his close connection to God, would hear a voice and assume it is his God (especially when the voice tells him to keep doing what he wants to do anyway). I thought it was more a testament to how human beings can misinterpret events because they are biased and want to see things in a way that benefits themselves.

I'm looking forward to the next book. I want to know if Irina will play a bigger part, possibly filling Anna's anti-magic role? If her brother ends up having some gifts of his own (since he played a crucial part in the end), and if that kiss between Winter and Vasya ends up meaning anything?

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

@Jennifer The Talisman was definitely one of the unanswered questions for me too. I know once she had it she could see and hear a shadow of him, but otherwise it just didn't seem to serve much purpose. Which was odd since so much of the book seemed to focus on it. And I was also thrown off by the fact that he didn't seem to want her around for the battle.

[Anna]

I wasn't originally going to comment anything, but since I shocked Allison in the other thread, I guess I'll explain why I was disappointed by this book. Well I'll try, I'm not sure myself why that is. Part of it is that lately I've been so over retellings and every time I read one I feel so bored. Even if the writing is great, if it feels at all familiar I'm immediately put off. The second thing is that I grew up watching and reading stories that were heavily influenced by Russia, and lately I'm also kind of fed up with that. Especially when it's a non-Russian doing the retelling, I'd much prefer reading a fresh new take on these stories by an author with Eastern European heritage.

So even though my rating is low, it doesn't mean I wouldn't read something else by the author. I'm rating by the GR scale so that means this was OK.

[Jen]

Once I got into the pace of the story, I found it to be quite lovely. This is not a tale for the land of HD TV and action CGI movies and Xboxes. This is a story for a candlelit night, a fire in the oven, snow piling up outside, cozying up with the people you love.

I quite liked it. I understand the problems people had with the story. But the characters came alive to me, especially Vasya, and the seasonal life of the people living close to the earth appealed to me.

Especially considering this was a first novel, I give it a B+

[Darryl]

Jennifer wrote: "The storyline involving the church didn't bother me too much as I can easily see how a man of faith, who wants to be special in the eyes of the people for his close connection to God, would hear a voice and assume it is his God..."

This is especially believable given the medieval context. Think how many missionaries back then travelled to new worlds, hoping to change the world, work for God, or perhaps save their own souls - only to find their beliefs turned upside-down, be cast away (as Konstantin was), or even killed.

[Darryl]

One additional comment: The Booklist review refers to, "brave Vasya, who outsmarts men and demons alike to save her family." I agree that she was very brave, but I think she was motivated more by her desire to be free from the constraints of family and community than by her desire to save her family. Certainly, she cares about her family, but her actions by the end are centered on this desire: "I would rather die tomorrow in the forest than live a hundred years of the life appointed me.” Or am I missing something?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Aw, Anna, I didn't mean to make you justify it! But I agree with much of what you said, at the end.

I thought it was good overall. Like Jen, I thought the atmosphere was absolutely wonderful. However I wanted a lot more. I felt the atmosphere was dimmed by repetition and the same sort of ultimately pointless-for-this-book things we learned. A lot of the foreshadowing seems to have been meant for book two, and all of book one was left feeling like a prologue where we watch people who I guess will eventually be powerful lose everything they love.

[Sarah]

Anna wrote: "I wasn't originally going to comment anything, but since I shocked Allison in the other thread, I guess I'll explain why I was disappointed by this book. Well I'll try, I'm not sure myself why that..."

I was pretty meh myself. I was between two and three stars.

[Anna]

Allison wrote: "Aw, Anna, I didn't mean to make you justify it!"

You didn't make me do it, it just gave me the push to say something. I didn't earlier, because I didn't feel like I had much to say. I've felt pretty meh about most books lately, so I'm not sure if I'm just cranky or if I've hit a bad batch of books.

[CBRetriever]

Its on sale today on Amazon

The Bear and the Nightingale
by Katherine Arden (Del Rey)
down to $1.99 from $11.99 save 83%

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "Allison wrote: "Aw, Anna, I didn't mean to make you justify it!"

You didn't make me do it, it just gave me the push to say something. I didn't earlier, because I didn't feel like I had much to say..."

Yeah, I hear you. I'm giving Disc World a try now to give my reading a jolt. I may try Uprooted soon, too, so I get the three well-known Russian folklore inspired books finished off.

[Maggie]

I actually enjoyed it a lot. I did think the ending was abrupt, but knew there was a sequel, so, left it at that.

[Reilly]

Nothing I can say that isn't repetitive with other critical reviews here. The author needed a good editor behind her and obviously that didn't happen--lots of beginner mistakes that could have been edited out or softened. But that's not surprising these days. New York is publishing a whole horde of books from romance to thriller to fantasy that are poorly edited and brimming with obvious errors. If we can see them easily and agree on them, why didn't the editor see them? Good question.

[Christopher]

Just FYI, The Bear and the Nightingale made the long list both for the "Fantasy" and "Goodreads Debut Author" categories of the 2017 Goodreads Choice Awards.

As far as I can tell nothing else we've read as a group was nominated although there are some relevant sequels including:

Babylon's Ashes
The Stone Sky
A Conjuring of Light

[Kristin B.]

I certainly agree with all of the issues in the books that folks pointed out here. The pendant didn't end up being very relevant. There are some definite issues with the ending and how she played into it. Also, repetition.

But, I tend to rate books on how they make me feel. Towards the end of this I was in tears and feeling very sentimental about family and hard choices. So I rated it a five, because it made me care.

I really hope we see more of Irina in later books. I adored that she wasn't turned into an evil step-sister. She loved her mother, but she didn't let her mother's fear of Vasya taint her. She saw her big sister as just that, her big sister. The one who looked out for her and snuggled her on cold nights. I also appreciated that Vasya didn't despise Irina for how pretty and charming she was, or dislike her just because she was Anna's daughter. On that same note, I was happy that Pyotr did not resent Vasya for the death of his wife. You see that a lot in stories where a woman who was well loved dies in childbirth. Even her siblings treated her kindly rather than being angry that she "took their mother away."

Vasya not being an amazing child pleased me as well. She did not immediately have ethereal beauty or great aptitudes, other than for getting dirty. Sure, the ugly duckling thing is a little cliched, but the perfect from birth thing is as well. All things being equal, I like my MC's to be flawed.

As of now I plan to read the sequel when it comes out in December. In reality, I'm a little flaky, so we'll see if I remember.

[Kristin B.]

I just thought I would drop into this thread to say I did end up reading the sequel and I really enjoyed it. If you enjoyed The Bear and the Nightingale, you would enjoy The Girl in the Tower.

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

Finished chapter 6 and I think I'm geeking out.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yay! I love finding a book that resonates just right ^^

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

It took awhile in my case. For the life of me I couldn't figure out what message was to be taken from the tale in chapter one where the woman and her child die. Thank an abuser and they'll show pity on you but dare to stand up for yourself and they'll kill you isn't a story I take much heart from. It's all I could think of initially.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yeah, that was a really rough opener.

[Chris]

Ryan wrote: "For the life of me I couldn't figure out what message was to be taken from the tale in chapter one where the woman and her child die. Thank an abuser and they'll show pity on you but dare to stand up for yourself and they'll kill you isn't a story I take much heart from."

I took it to mean that having a good heart offers some protection, whereas the stepmother's and her daughter's greed was punished. When immortals interact with humans in mythology and religion, a test is common, and failing the test often means death.

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

Ah, Frost has made a reappearance about halfway through the book and I realize now that I needn't have fussed about the morality of the tale. I took it for a children's tale and couldn't fathom what message was in it that people needed to know, but it's much easier to accept now as some magical creature being curmudgeonly. I can tolerate non-human people being a***holes. Why he killed them I could understand, but not condone. It's why Dunya would tell kids the story that baffled me.

The daughter wasn't greedy. Her dad left her in the cold on the orders of her mum and she was rightly pissed that this ice guy was making her colder. I'd accept her mother as being greedy, but thanking an abuser for abusing her isn't a sign of a good heart. I say reject any mythology, ideology, or story that asks you to be thankful for being harmed. Such a mindset won't spare one from a grave.

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

Well up for having a chat about this book. It was flawed but not so much that it hampered my enjoyment in any way. I was completely hooked by the time Vasya was talking with the horses and loved when Mish told her that they aren't to be commanded, even though that's kinda what happens throughout.

My review of The Bear and The Nightingale:

Despite a slow start which I initially (and almost ruinously) sought deeper meaning for instead of simply accepting, this was a highly enjoyable read. Full of characters both key and inconsequential that the author allowed me to think and feel something for. I know nothing of the Russian tales and mythology of which this story draws from and so was perhaps able to place more of my own biases and sense of wonder in the story than others can. It worked tremendously.

The Bear and The Nightingale works as a simple magical tale of strange creatures and talking horses. Or as a decent launch platform for discussions about the transactional nature of relationships, self-determination, harmful religious doctrine, and/or the constraints of gender roles (though only in regard to women as the men solely chafed about where they were to perform their role, not that they had to perform it at all).
You get from it whatever you choose to put in.

Trigger warnings for sexual assault and rape. Those aside, my biggest gripe is with what was shaping up to be an epic conflict that could only be contained by three novels was mostly handled with one. There's been groundwork laid for sequels but I've come away feeling a bit cheated by not doing more with the potential that was shown. With any luck I'll think myself a fool for thinking such when I get around to reading the rest of the trilogy.

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

I took the crystal that Vasya was given as the equivalent of a Wedding ring due to Frosts/deaths talk of giving her rubies and such as a dowry. He claimed her from young, wanting to have her power available to him which his horse wasn't entirely happy about because he didn't tell her everything entailed. That Vasya wore the crystal, rejected the dowry and determined that their relationship would be a fluid thing in which she can walk away from if she pleases.

Little of that is explicit so I may be entirely wrong. Won't know until I've read the remainder of the trilogy.

[Kaia]

I read this for the January 2023 re-read, and I have to say that I really enjoyed it. I do, however, particularly like books that are explore and are woven out of folklore, mythology, fairy tales, or traditional stories. I was a little disappointed to learn after reading that the author didn't grow up in the culture referenced in the story, though.

After reading through the discussion here, I can acknowledge that the book does have some problems, but they didn't hamper my enjoyment. Thinking back now, I do wish that the talisman had a little more significance, considering how much build-up there was. Many people said they felt the beginning was slow, but I didn't find that to be the case myself. In fact, I liked the first 2/3 of the book better than the last part. I was glad that, even though there is definitely some darker content, the author did not go as dark as I feared - while some terrible things occurred, they weren't described in graphic detail, and there were a few times when I braced for something very dark, and the story took a different direction.

While I know this is the first book in a trilogy, I don't have much desire to read the other books. This one felt complete in its own way, and looking at the description for the other two, it seemed like they focused less on the storytelling aspect, which was what really appealed to me. I'm also happy to imagine my own ending for the characters - though a small part of me does want to know what happens with Sasha because I liked his character.

[Cheryl]

I am about to start!

[Cheryl]

I agree mostly with the critical reviews. I admire the talent of the author (though not the editors) and so gave it three stars. My review:

Kudos to turning the usual 'pseudo-medieval' fantasy setting into a real one. Kudos for the power of making me taste the black bread, feel the cold, be thankful I don't live in Rus' in any era, and be glad that I can make my own choices without all the bloodletting.

But basically, imo, this is either a YA novel or a novelette with lots of extra stuff crammed in. I finished just this morning and I hardly remember anything except setting, and the yucky bits, tbh.

Do note that there is a glossary tucked into the back matter. It would have helped me if I'd found it before I was done.
---
no interest in sequel, especially after reading blurb and Sherwood Smith's review

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

Yeah, I rather enjoyed this but both sequels were disappointing reads that I have no interest in going back to.