The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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OMF, Book 4, Chp. 12 - 17
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For instance, I did not find it very likely that Mr Boffin should have been playing a game all the time, and I do wonder whether Dickens had really intended Boffin's change as a farce all the time. It also seems to run counter to the message and idea of the novel, namely that riches breed vice, and I also find it very strange that the formerly so self-confident Bella should not have minded being led up the garden path all the while (for months!!!). I also wonder why Eugene, who was severely injured and nearly drowned, should have come round alright in the end. These were some of the things that really disappointed me.
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*whistles*"
I can't think of any normal person who wouldn't love a happy ending. There is however, one I can think of who isn't..........
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*whistles*"
I can't think of any normal person who wouldn't love a happy ending. There is however, one I can think of who isn't........"
Now, that's much better!
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Tristram
You identify aspects of the novel that I completely agree with from this novel. While I have come to accept the “Dickensian Wand” of resolution as a part of his style, the Boffin bit is a bit too much.
On the other hand, for Bella’s alteration(s) of character we do see a person who was marked from a very early age as a child whose destiny was in others’ control. Perhaps she wanted to just be a happily married person with a husband that truly loved her. Fate made her into an object to be distributed by a will. Also, Dickens did signal a bit of her true feelings towards Rokesmith early in the text in the chapter where Rokesmith signs the document to become a boarder in her father’s house. Still, you are right, it was a bit too much.
Naturally, since I like Lizzie so much, I am slightly horrified she is with Eugene. Yes, I could see her character saving his life, but I hoped that would be another indication of her altruistic character. I wish Dickens would have let her just sail (or would that be row) into the sunset. :-))
I do know what you both mean about the "Dickensian wand", and myself think of it as "the Perry Mason effect"!But I felt that the very fact that we doubted Noddy Boffin's change for a while adds to the realisation that it was a sham. I think this may be one of the instances Dickens had in his mind in the afterword, where he asks his readers to trust that he knows what he is doing.
I agree totally about Eugene however. Maybe he made a deathbed conversion? Maybe Dickens was bowing to public demand for a "happy ending for Lizzie"? (I don't know this, and must look to see if this was planned from the start, as it may have been). But in several of his novels Dickens does spend a great deal of time showing us one side of a character only to then switch. I just didn't buy into this one. Lizzie deserved better :( She's such a feisty, modern heroine.
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Is she really, Jean? To me, she seems not so much a character in her own right but more some kind of ideal of genteel Victorian gender roles. She does not even talk like a daughter of Jesse Hexam's would probably talk. This shows when you notice there is no difference at all between the uneducated Lizzie and the Lizzie that has been given some tuition. There is no development in her, and she does not come over as a flesh-and-blood-person to me. But maybe, that's just my impression.
Ah, the diction is a problem :( I was thinking of her final actions. Would someone who had had the presence of mind and courage to rescue a man approaching death, really be content with the passivity expected of a Victorian wife? She isn't give nearly as much page space to develop as Bella. Odd that she disappears for a large section of the book too. No, I agree that she isn't very fully realised.
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LOL possibly, although I loved the contrast showing Dickens's dual ideas of female perfection, represented by the very different characters, Bella and Lizzie. Perhaps Lizzie was a forward-looking heroine, and Bella was more of her time.
All four Books end with a chapter of social satire...Dickens at his best. It’s hard to attribute this happenstance to coincidence.Dickens at his worst would be writing romance. I think he chose the tropes and motifs of fairy stories and nonsense to navigate this unfamiliar territory.
Happy endings for all. Isn’t “And they all lived happily ever after” a fairy tale motif?
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Dickens at his worst would be writing romance. I think he chose t..."
Indeed. “And they lived happily ever after.” Perfect.
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I was so glad to see you say that Peter, I was getting worried a certain person's grumpiness may be rubbing off on you, luckily I was mistaken. :-)
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Since you probably know what I'm about to say, I won't have to say it.
I love happy endings, Jean, though perhaps that doesn't always mean the man and woman marrying. I never bought into the romance between Lizzie and Eugene, and can't imagine a happily-ever-after scenario for them. As Lizzie ages and loses her looks, and as she takes off the rose-colored glasses through which she looks at Eugene, they will grow to resent one another. Eugene will miss Society and blame Lizzie, and she, in turn, will feel guilt at his exclusion. It's a train wreck waiting to happen. Someone (sorry - can't recall who) said "Eugene is cleansed by his encounter with the Thames" unlike all of those who lost their lives in the river. Is this the "baptism" that I've been looking for? Or is it John Harmon, who also survived the Thames? Both were, in their own ways, resurrected - Eugene from near death, and Harmon, through the revelation of his true identity. If we're looking for a Jesus figure, who sacrificed himself for others? Well... Eugene sacrificed his social standing for Lizzie, but that hardly makes him messianic. Ultimately, did Harmon sacrifice anything? He got the girl, he got his fortune back. What am I missing here? Or perhaps Dickens just didn't take the analogy that far.
Count me among those who thought the deception of Bella went too far. John married her under false pretenses. Had Bella been true to her innate character, she would have been furious - or at least irritated - even if forgiving. Her unquestioning devotion under highly suspicious circumstances also doesn't ring true.
I loved Wegg (after all, how often does one come across a literary man with a wooden leg?), but am glad he got his comeuppance. It seemed a bit too physical for my taste, though. Rascal that he was, he was still disabled. I was a bit taken aback that they roughed him up rather than just giving him a tongue-lashing.
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I was so glad to see you say that Peter, I was getting worried a certain person's grumpiness may be rubbing off on you, luckil..."
Kim
Have no fear ... Christmas and Little Nell are always near my heart. :-))
Finally (for this session, at least), I thoroughly approved of Riderhood and Headstone meeting their reward together and at each other's hands. Divine justice, if you ask me. I will, though, give Headstone the benefit of the doubt and assume that he had some compassion for Miss Peecher, and there was a modicum of goodness in his heart.
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I think that there may well be a convincing case for the Thames being seen as an element of cleansing or baptism. The idea of being born again occurs when Harmon emerges from the Thames as Rokesmith, and certainly the plot tells us that Eugene is re-born into a better person after his trials and immersion in the Thames.
On the other hand, the Thames is the direct agent of several deaths including Hexam, Headstone, Riderhood and the sailor dressed as Harmon at the beginning of the novel. We need to remember that Betty also died on the banks of the Thames. This death, however, can be seen as more difficult to analyze since Betty was definitely a good character and she died in the arms of Lizzie. The illustrators’ portrayal of this scene have a definite Pieta feel to them. (Or, at least to me they do).
I see the Thames as being a major element and symbol in the novel and perhaps we can discuss its presence in our general discussion next week.
I'm looking forward to that! Really enjoyed your insights here, Peter :)
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I was so glad to see you say that Peter, I was getting worried a certain person's grumpiness may be rubbing off on you, luckil..."
Hey, my grumpiness is an integral part of my personality. It cannot rub off on anyone and anything. Unlike my glumness and my peevishness - they sometimes can.
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Since you probably know what I..."
But wouldn't you feel better after saying it? :-)
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That's exactly what I thought, Mary Lou: Dickens has the curtain fall here before Lizzie and Eugene's love has to prove itself seaworthy in the storms of everyday life and of many years going by. He just leaves the couple at the starting point of all their problems. And I also thought that it would never be a Dickens who could write a story about a couple's development, but rather a Trollope!
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That's the hypocrisy of fairy tales, and romances, and comedies. You usually learn that wealth does not mean anything and that love is much more important, but lo and behold! the person you have fallen in love with proves to be a rich man or woman eventually, and you can enjoy both love and riches, and feel like a decent human being into the bargain. That leaves me with, "Bah, Humbug!"
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So, luckily, I am not the only one here who loves Wegg!
Tristram wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "I loved Wegg (after all, how often does one come across a literary man with a wooden leg?), but am glad he got his comeuppance. It seemed a bit too physical for my taste, though. R..."I definitely took a liking to Wegg in the early chapters and found the ending to Book 1 where he was peering under the Boffins' furniture and beds to be hilarious.
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Poor Tristram's wife, poor Tristram's son, poor Tristram's daughter, poor Tristram's mother, poor Tristram' father,......
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Poor Tristram's wife, poor Tristram's son, poor Tristram's daughter, poor Tristram's mother, poor Tristram' father..."
Don't forget my neighbours and colleagues, Kim!
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Kim wrote: "I repeat what I didn't say."I love this! There's something surreal about it :D
Tristram wrote: "And I also thought that it would never be a Dickens who could write a story about a couple's development, but rather a Trollope! ..."There's one novel in the series of Barchester Chronicles where I couldn't forgive him for opting out of doing exactly this, and providing a very weak ending, I thought.
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I love this! There's something surreal about it :D"
And it's more thoughtful than most people, who keep repeating what they have said, or others who claim to have said something they never did. One knows these people from work.
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There's one novel in the series of Barchester..."
Which one, Jean? I've read them all save Dr Thorne. I was actually thinking of He Knew He Was Right when I referred to Trollope. I found that one a very realistic and sombre (pardon the tautology) book.
I've just added that one! I remember a very enjoyable miniseries, so thank you for the nudge, Tristram :)It is (view spoiler). Now you're going to tell me it's brilliant, (which I agree with) and that I just didn't like the ending ...
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It is [spoilers removed]. Now you're going to tell me it's brilliant, (which I agree with)..."
I can't remember what I thought of that one. It may be time for a re-read.
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It is [spoilers removed]. Now you're going to tell me it's brilliant, (which I agree with)..."
You are most welcome to the nudge, Jean! I read the book you referred to years ago and cannot remember the ending. All I remember is that I liked the female protagonist.
For any of you out there and still watching this thread, I finally read the book (re-read, but from decades before so I didn't remember anything of it except the opening scene), and after this part had so many feelings I had to come back and see what you all thought--in 2017!I would add that in addition to John really pushing things too far, the Mr. Boffins deception was confusing to me because it disproves the very point it was trying to prove. Turns out money *doesn't* spoil everyone. I guess I could be generous and say well that was not really the point: the point was if you have to choose between money and affection, choose affection. But it's hard for me to see it that way because I was taken in right along with Bella, so here I had working in the back of my head the theme that money corrupts... except I guess it doesn't?
Anyway, very confused, but also glad Boffin remains a champ. I had not been enjoying witnessing his fall and I didn't want to believe it.
Also in agreement with all of you who liked the final Headstone chapter. SO creepy when he's walking away and walking back and walking away and walking back again and Riderhood silently tails him through all of it. Fate worse than death--apparently.
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What a weird sensation to reread this thread and see all your names and what we wrote. And now a confession. I had forgot some parts of this book but took some solace that I hadn’t read it since 2017.
Seven years!
I hope you all are well, still enjoying reading, and have spent some time with our mutual friend Mr Dickens. The world is changing so quickly. It's good to find a home with him.
My best to you all.
Peter
A *lot* can change in 7 years.(Including me. Probably need to update that 2017 profile picture!)
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(Including me. Probably need to update that 2017 profile picture!)"
Yes. Time to change my picture as well. Heck, I don’t even live in Victoria anymore so who that guy is standing beneath the statue of Queen Victoria on the lawn of the legislature I don’t know.
Peter wrote: "Julie wrote: "A *lot* can change in 7 years.(Including me. Probably need to update that 2017 profile picture!)"
Yes. Time to change my picture as well. Heck, I don’t even live in Victoria anymor..."
lol
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Kim wrote: "How did everyone get so much older except me? I may never know. :-)"So deeply confusing!
Gosh. Time does fly. This was my first read when I joined the group.
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It's good to hear from you, and I hope you are all doing fine. Seven years have indeed been a long time, and I remember reading the book on the seaside, sitting in a café on a stormy and rainy morning. My daugther was five years old, and my son nine then. Those were the days when I had to steal away some time for reading from each day because my kids wanted to spend so much time with me, especially in the holidays. Now, it's different: My son is preoccupied with his own hobbies, with his music, and with learning how to drive. Not much time for the old man. Luckily, my daughter is still a father's child ;-)
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The Old Curiosity Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Small House at Allington (other topics)He Knew He Was Right (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
Oliver Twist (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Arthur Conan Doyle (other topics)Claire Tomalin (other topics)
Book 4 Chapter 16
James Mahoney
1875 Household Edition
Text Illustra..."
Is it just me, or does Sloppy really look like Batman's arch-enemy, the Joker?