Team Reading Competition Rules

[RuinEleint]

I should add that the too many BR issue really does not bother me that much as I just don't join that many reads. In most cases, I have either read the book, or its the middle of a series, or it hasn't really interested me. Most of my bonus points are from challenges.

If people are overdoing BRs I think scaling down the bonus points to make them the equal of challenges might help.

I have really enjoyed the Malazan BRs though, especially reading all the reactions from first time readers.

[Diana Stormblessed]

Virginie wrote: "I'm having lots of fun. I had a period when it was stressing me a bit. I felt compelled to always read more and faster...
But, well. Don't really care about the points now. The Bingo and Cover chal..."

I'm going to have to start withholding/renaming my books to throw you off my scent ;-)

[Olivia]

Niki Hawkes wrote: "I added a poll to my original comment, but please keep the feedback coming here too."

I love it.
I just am quite competitive and overloaded myself with BRs... it doesn't help that I do prefer reading books along with others and jump onto everything that's being read for fear it might not come around for a while.

I also see this as a beta test :)

[Lundos]

Niki Hawkes wrote: "Lundos- when you said "that sounds like sandbagging" on my thread I thought you were joking. We aren't hoarding points to pile them and change the stats (which wouldn't matter anyway because we're ..."

I was joking. I know you - and the team - are not sandbagging.

I just wanted to be up front about the possibility. I've seen other sites where competitions (with no prices) tend to get people all riled up and find all sorts of ways to beat the rules, and I don't want it to happen here.

As you I don't like a deadline for adding stuff in a friendly competition and I agree that it could feel like homework instead. But given all the other clever ideas in this thread some sort of solution might show itself when I address the (potential) issue.

[Niki Hawkes, I made it past GOTM... barely]

It's definitely something I'd not considered. I may be revisiting your comment if it ever becomes an issue haha.

[Lundos]

Olivia wrote: "I also see this as a beta test :)"

Rob wrote: "I think this year is our "beta test" for the competition. Anytime you do anything like this you have to iron out the kinks and revise the rules. Sounds like we're mostly having fun with it and that..."

First time always has to have some sort of trial period to make adjustments/amendments.

Imagine the number of people wanting to participate next year? It's going to be huge..

[Lundos]

Petrik wrote: "So many 2 cents here... How many have we accumulated? a few more and this guy will appear.

I think it's good to put more ideas here. Honestly though, I'm actually surprised by how competitive ev..."

Well put, Petrik.

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Some people joined the group specifically because they saw us participating in the competition (like Lena)

[Lundos]

:)

[Tammie]

I think some of you are way overthinking this. It's for fun and I'm having fun, so thanks mods for trying to make this a fun place with the challenges and the reading competition. Maybe making the buddy reads count for less would be a good idea, but there are clearly stated rules for participating and counting buddy reads. If you aren't actively participating in the buddy read and following those rules then you shouldn't be adding the buddy read points. That being said, I don't participate in nearly as many buddy reads as a lot of you do. I probably only have around 15 for the whole year right now, so I have not personally seen the decline in the buddy read quality that some of you have mentioned.

[Lena]

Yes, that is why I joined but I’ve enjoyed myself even without a team.

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Didn't mean to call you out... I know you aren't alone... I can think of a few others (Virginie?) who signed up for the competition within their first 5 posts, I think...

[Zaara]

I agree with all the people who say to go minimal on this. Tweak as little as poss.

REGARDING THE PHILOSOPHY/WHY OF THE THING
(view spoiler)[
The fact that the teams are always neck to neck shows the race is as fair as it can get.
Soooo...let the rules be left as much alone, actually. They are working fine. In fact, I think they're working marvellously + proven to be tensile enough to withstand the undue and unforeseen stresses placed upon them.

Whereas the spreadsheet was groaning and weirdly broken...forgive me if my understanding of this is faulty and please ignore my comments abt the spreadsheet if I have it all wrong.
But that glitch happened bcuz of complex formulae and numerous additions and not because of any fault with the sheet's construction, correct?
Since it was working fine until then?

So my question is should we add MORE formulae and complexity to either policy or yardstick?

I've stayed off this thread so far since I don't feel I have had anything worthwhile to say. I have watched the tourney grow...with apprehension and some dismay. I've even made gentle trashtalk about it.
So I agree with ALL who are saying wasn't this whole tourney supposed to be just for fun?
And it doesn't matter who wins bcuz there's no real prize at stake?
When did it get so rapacious, so competitive? So much work for the people who administer?
WHY?
Isn't there enough of this....*waves* out there in the real world?

I think a busload of us are bewailing the fact that the reads are being processed thru like tubes thru a toothpaste factory.
+ all this stress, all the rules getting more complex and more and more finely tweaked
+ and let's not even talk about the Folder Frankenstein of our own making. Does anyone remember how that story ended 😂😂😂?

I'm afraid that this will all turn into angst with ever more complex rules and where is the fun in that?
All of which means we are totally missing the raison d'être of the group itself, no? For numbers that don't matter and never will?
Laura made this point. Actually profound.

Here's a tangential thought.
Aren't we we perhaps collectively losing out on the spirit of this whole exercise (good times had by all) simply by making it so intricate and unwieldy?
Isn't this exactly how corporate mission statements are lost in the fog?
Left behind in the the translation from intent to execution.
It's funny (and a bit sad) how we let a real world mentality creep in here.

But then, is it not not mildly contradictory that we bring a real world MINDSET to this game but then want to artificially induce "fairness" to it by tweaking the rules to create a more level playing field? Is THIS not untrue to real world? Since when is life fair? Where the level playing fields in the real world? We do the best we can with what we are given and with what we can create for ourselves.
So...if others can strategise better and read more while staying within all the rules why should we deny them a victory they have so justly earned? That's equally unfair, no? Why aren't we considering this? Why is NOBODY considering this before all this talk of changing the rules?
If we gonna play True2Life then the most ferocious sharks in the pond will win. In this case Laura and Fin and Choc and Ron.
And the rest of us just have to suck it up.
Only fair. (hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

REGARDING RULES AND THE ACTUAL HOW OF THE THING
(view spoiler)[
So no, I'm against funking with the BR bonus. I think many in Tome Raiders and for sure, Anni (from Jaghut) and I are slow(ish) readers. We do about 1-2 BR a week and participate quite a lot in our chosen reads. If the few books we read suddenly start counting for a lot less, I think the point margins between teams would widen not shrink. And if not for the hefty BR bonus participation from many of the minnows would drop out. Participation in BRs is already dropping (in quality). Who is gonna log in and comment for even LESS? There was a reason that rule was made in the first place.
When things get tough and murky, I would say it helps to remember the origin of why something was done + go back to those basics.

Also I think people just need to self-regulate. Go less bat crazy on adding stuff and actually talk in the threads more. I know in Jan I completed 4 BRs. So in Feb I was overconfident and signed up for 7. Big fail. Guess what? In March, I'm back to four...am pretty much on schedule and talked a ton in those reads.

Here's a thought/possible way forward: I feel this one actually deserves a simple YES/NO poll with a closed end question: should the BR bonus be cut to 0.33x or left at 0.5x
And only votes from participating contestants should count.
Sure would help @Mods take a final call.
Does this seem like a doable thing? Do you think that's fair?
I'm happy to go with whatever everyone decides.

I don't understand Point 4 @Lundos. Please will you explain it a bit further? I've read the ensuing comments. I still not sure if I understand how the WHEN of it matters.
Let me make an attempt and you chk if I understood it right.
Someone, let's say me...ok I read four books.
And then I cunningly wait to add my points until my team gets an extra member (cuz it looks like we are lagging) and I do this on purpose as an evil plot?
Is this what point #4 means?
That's actually quite a valid concern + I think I could actually be guilty since I only update once a month.

So let's say...
1. All books FINISHED in a month (bcuz some ppl could have books started in feb that they finish in March) should by added by the last day of that month.
2. Then new members can be added and start playing only at the start of the new month after all the previous totting up.

Such a rule would not be so hard to implement
+ no extra work for @Mods.
+ it would be fair to all
+ it will deffo ameliorate your concerns, right Lundos?

If I didn't get it right, I'm sorry and please explain once more. Won't be here next coupla days. In fact I wasn't even supposed to be online tonight. (hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

Oh and I'm sorry for the motherhonking huge essays. I have collapsed them in spoilers.

[Lena]

No problem Iain. I was late to the party. If it matters I agree with you here:

Would be much more fun if Buddy Reads mattered less (the ideas about making the Book Club book valuable are nice and more open-ended throughout the entire month)... since the Challenges are much more free-form and just a bonus perk any time...

There are books like Children of Time/The Long Way to an Angry Planet that I’ve bought because of all the comments here but couldn’t fit it into the framework. In general I did sign up for too many buddy reads but I am reading more because of this group and I can make adjustments as I go.

None of my failed buddy reads go on my permanent record.

[Zaara]

@Niki....
There is already a poll?
Yay for superredundant comments that I spent ages typing. I feel so smart. I'll delete them when I'm next on here. I swear I have't the heart now.

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

I'm enjoying the competition much like Tammie. It's meant to be fun. Of course you should get more points for a buddy read as it's what the group is based on. Books always come around again to buddy read as well, so don't feel bad when you realise you can't do a buddy read you said you could. Some books are on at least their third read in the group.

[Virginie]

Iain wrote: "Didn't mean to call you out... I know you aren't alone... I can think of a few others (Virginie?) who signed up for the competition within their first 5 posts, I think..."

I joined the group around the 7th of Jan I think. I noticed all the excitement around the competition (especially since it had just started) and wanted to join right away. I actually joined as soon as I hit 20 comments (before it was upped muahaha).

Being in a team really helped me get to know the people in this group :)

[Barry]

Overall I think this competition has been a net positive for me. I know I’m competitive that’s why Im on pace to read significantly more books than in previous years.

As far as the scoring system goes I’m fine with the current rules. But, if most people feel the bonus points for BRs are too high, I’m ok with reducing that too. I think most people here enjoy the challenge of contributing for his/her team, hence the increased number of BRs. I don’t think there needs to be significant overhaul to the system that we’re currently running.

I dunno what’s it like before I join the group, but I think a lot of the discussions that I’ve joined have been pretty active. People show up and post their thoughts. I haven’t seen significant number of people who just post “I’m done with the book” and that’s it. If there’s anything “negative” that I’ve seen is that I think a few people have signed up to too many BRs, so they’re falling behind on the readings. So, sometimes you show up at the threads and most people have already finished the book.

But I think the most important point, as several people have mentioned it already, is to remember that this is supposed to be a fun competition. So let’s continue to have some fun 🙂

[Siobhan]

I'm still having fun with the competition, and I love using the spreadsheet to track my reading - it's great.
I'm pretty happy with the rules, but willing to go with whatever everyone thinks is best.

On the quality of buddy reads, I always try to discuss something in the book that stands out to me, whether it be characterisation or a plot point, and that sort of discussion has been in every buddy read I've done. There's definitely been some with briefer comments than others, and it probably is because we're all so overbooked. Sometimes the books just don't inspire discussion though.

I think like Zaara said, it just takes a bit of self regulating. I'm clearing some time in my schedule because I realised buddy reads are becoming a chore, like Laura said, just a date to read rather than anything really fun. I think if I do less I will enjoy them more. :)

[Saar The Book owl]

It's a fun competition and reading is still fun! We should read for pleasure and not set the competition first.
I think there are to many BR's and maybe that's why the discussions aren't going as 'deep' as they used to in some topics. I've found myself dropping out of some BR's too, because I signed up for too many and reading should still be relaxing and not something that you would do in a hurry. I drop some BR's to read them later, without being in a BR.
Maybe the points for BR's should be lower, because it can be that readers are signing up for BR's to get the bonus points?
About children books: I think that only picture books can't count. There are readers, me also, who reads YA and other children books.
But most of all: don't forget, it's for fun!

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Siobhan wrote: "I'm still having fun with the competition, and I love using the spreadsheet to track my reading - it's great.
I'm pretty happy with the rules, but willing to go with whatever everyone thinks is bes..."

Yea... that's another reason I dropped a few Buddy Reads... the ones that inspired comments like "It's a book... I read it... what else is there to say, really?" :)

[Seán]

Laura wrote: "I agree with Petrik and Diana here.

For me personally the BRs have started to gather waaay beyond limit and I find myself unable to talk about a book the way I want to at times. I kept adding and adding because the temptation to "read even that one" is great but I find myself not having enough time to even review books the way I wish because I'm falling behind at reading others. So before BRs become a chore to do for points I'm going to cut mine down and keep only a few of them a month for books that I really wish to talk about.
I'll be losing BR points, that is true, but then gaining reading time by not being on GR. Besides, a BR with I started and finished and liked it somewhere in between is not much fun after some time. (and I'm starting to be in that kind more often nowadays :( ). I don't want to remember BRs just as scheduled dates to read certain books. And at present, this is how it's starting to look like for me."

This is pretty much how I feel. There's an overwhelming amount of buddy reads right now with the group having exploded in size, and I've found myself signing up for a ton and then not having the time/not being in the mood for the book when it comes around. So I'm really limiting what I sign up to for now as I'm just not getting involved in reads that same way I used to.

The competition seems like it's great fun and plenty of people are enjoying it - I've backed away from it though as it just feels like it's adding pressure to what/when I read. It's great seeing people clearing out their TBR lists with it, but I'm not worrying about the total points tally or anything. Like others have said, I'm interested in the personal stats I can keep track of, but that's about it really.

Anyways, it's great to have a large dialogue like this going and having plenty of people passionate about the group! With all of the discussion going on, everyone's keeping things nice and civil, which is not something that can be said for a lot of online groups this size! :)

[Niki Hawkes, I made it past GOTM... barely]

I do appreciate how well this group communicates and discusses issues. We have a great thing going here. :)

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

For the record we've discussed this internally and decided to keep the existing rules through the year because doing otherwise would unlocked unneeded complications.

We can discuss rule changes for year two if everybody is still having a good time come December.

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

That's always been the problem with discussing rule changes... it complicates things... and it's not like we get a Pizza Party (or some other workplace contest gimmick) at the end...

[Saar The Book owl]

@Scott: I can find myself in that decision. It's a good learning lesson for a possible 2nd edition. Changing the rules now would be too confusing.

[Lena]

I have several DNF’s, some of which I got to 80% on before just letting go. Can I count what I read?

[Niki Hawkes, I made it past GOTM... barely]

Lena, yes you can count what you read. The mods will probably alter this for next year, but it's in the rules this time around. :)

[Lena]

Ok cool.

[Lundos]

Wrong thread.

[Yanique, Thread Master]

Lena wrote: "I have several DNF’s, some of which I got to 80% on before just letting go. Can I count what I read?"

The rules say anything that you've read (since the date you were added to the competition) counts. If you DNF something, put the page number that you got up to so you can get your points.

[[deleted user]]

I'm working on getting comments done before asking to join. How many do I have to do?

[Barry]

I believe it’s 100 comments.

[Olivia]

Ok, I'm REALLY confused suddenly.

Most popular edition.

I just clicked on "editions" and then took the top one, but I just realised mine is sorted by "format" and there's no way to sort by most popular on the website?

I can sort by most popular on the app though?

Am I blind on the website?

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Olivia wrote: "Ok, I'm REALLY confused suddenly.

Most popular edition.

I just clicked on "editions" and then took the top one, but I just realised mine is sorted by "format" and there's no way to sort by most p..."

num (ber of) ratings

[Lena]

Wrong or not I use the first one with page numbers if mine is audio edition otherwise I just use my book. It’s my book, I paid for it, and it conveniently has a page number where it ended.
Sometimes this place gets overly fussy. There’s no prize money after all, lol. The goal is reading enjoyment!

[Laura]

I was also doing that Lena until I had to change all the numbers on my spreadsheet after the rule to use the most popular edition. I rate the one I've read but add to the scoresheet the number of pages from the most popular edition despite the difference in page numbers.

[Olivia]

Lena wrote: "Wrong or not I use the first one with page numbers if mine is audio edition otherwise I just use my book. It’s my book, I paid for it, and it conveniently has a page number where it ended.
Sometim..."

Well, the rules are the most popular edition, if I'd use the page number in my books I'd have several hundred pages more. We either all play by the same rules or it doesn't work :/

Thank you, Iain! I've sorted it correctly now and adjusted my pages read :)

[Olivia]

Laura wrote: "I was also doing that Lena until I had to change all the numbers on my spreadsheet after the rule to use the most popular edition. I rate the one I've read but add to the scoresheet the number of p..."

I do the same. Rate the one I've read if possible and then add the pages from the most popular edition to the spreadsheet. Just had to adjust a few, because I didn't realise my website ordered by format and not number of ratings. Thanks Iain for that tip :)

[Yanique, Thread Master]

Lena wrote: "Wrong or not I use the first one with page numbers if mine is audio edition otherwise I just use my book. It’s my book, I paid for it, and it conveniently has a page number where it ended.
Sometim..."

wrong or not...

This is a strange attitude to have for a voluntary competition that you chose to participate in, which has many other participants who are all abiding by the same rules. We're operating on a honor system here because we expect everyone who opted to join to play fairly. It's one thing not to be aware of a rule (which shouldn't be the case because the rules are clearly stated on the competition thread), but to know about that rule and disregard it... then post that you're ignoring it and call people overly fussy....

[C.P.]

Lena wrote: "Wrong or not I use the first one with page numbers if mine is audio edition otherwise I just use my book. It’s my book, I paid for it, and it conveniently has a page number where it ended.
Sometim..."

It is for enjoyment, BUT it's also a competition. If we don't play by the same rules then that takes out the enjoyment factor for a lot of people.

[Lena]

I use the competition to motivate me to read more and a few things I otherwise wouldn’t and with the couple friends I have here.

[C.P.]

Which is great, Lena. I think that's what we are all using the competition for, but it's also important to follow the rules. Otherwise, what's the point? You can still do buddy reads and interact with everyone without being in the competition.

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Unless there's some weird profile setting I don't know about, everybody should be seeing the most popular edition when they run a book search or add a book to a comment... the only time I have to enter the editions page for a book number is when the most popular edition is an audiobook or a book with no page number listed... this happens most often with newer books and indie books with low number of ratings...

Regarding page numbers, we went with a uniform solution because so many of the books used in the competition are Buddy Reads, and editions can have a wide range of page numbers, especially when you are reading epic fantasy that approaches 1000 pages...

We wanted everyone participating in the Buddy Reads to earn the same number of points, not a subjective number that's hard to prove... for the first week of January we tried highest page number findable in the editions tab, but that proved time-consuming, so the most popular became the faster answer...

[Tammie]

If you go to the book's page and then click on all editions, the most popular edition will be the one on top. If it's one that doesn't have page numbers then use the next one down.

[Yanique, Thread Master]

Lena wrote: "I use the competition to motivate me to read more and a few things I otherwise wouldn’t and with the couple friends I have here."

This is the same for most people, but why does this mean that you should deliberately ignore a very easy competition rule, boast about it, then try to shame people for caring by calling them overly fussy? Then suggest in other threads that people are showing you hate on here? Too much.

[Niki Hawkes, I made it past GOTM... barely]

I just read through all the comments and I'm sorry if I fueled into this building fire. I see both points of the argument, and if the incorrect points added had any impact on the competition, I or one of the other mods would've stepped in to request an adjustment - the rules are in place using the honor system, as Yanique said, so we can keep things fair, and that's still something I stand by. However, since in this particular instance it doesn't matter to the overall total, I'm feeling inclined to let it go. We've orchestrated a system on our team thread for an accurate count going forward.

[Barry]

I remember there is a thread where I think Iain listed all the page count for the BRs. Is that still updated?

I usually check what other people who did BRs with me put on the page count number.