Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion
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Team Reading Competition Rules
Do graphic novels automatically get bonus points or is or only when it's read as a BR? I've read one of 152 pages.
Mod
Yes, I know that they are worth less points, but with being extreme tired, is that all I can read yesterday and today. But I want to stay busy. If I count it right:152 pages = 1.5/4 = 0.37 (round up to 0.4)
Bonus points (overflowing booskhelf challenge) = 0.4/4 = 0.1
Total points = 0.47 (round up to 0.5)
I think that's correct?
Mod
I think the page points are simply rounded, not rounded up. It's no different in this case but the calculations are:152 GN pages -> 38 book pages -> 3.8 points
Bonus points -> 3.8 /4 = 0.95 points
Total points -> 4.0 (page points rounded) + 1.0 (bonus points rounded up) = 5.0
The difference is relevant when the page count is really low I think. For a GN of 15 pages for example, you would get no page points but 0.1 bonus points.
At least, that's how the spreadsheet is set up.
Mod
152 GN pages -> 38 book pages -> 3.8 points
Bonus points -> 3.8 /4 = 0.95 points..."
your decimals are off... you get 1 point for every 100 pages, not every 10...
so 38 = 0.38
Pages round the normal way (0.11-0.14 = 0.1 // 0.15-0.19 = 0.2)
Bonus points round up always (0.11-0.19 = 0.2)
So a 15 page book = 0.15 pages + 0.075 br + 0.0375 challenge == 0.2 + 0.1 + 0.1 = 0.4
But with the spreadsheet, just write y/n in the appropriate columns and you don't have to think about this...
Whoops! I was still asleep apparently ;)Thanks for catching it.
It makes it easy that the spreadsheet is doing the math ☺
I think we can take from the different discussions around the team threads that we might benefit from a couple of amendments to the rules.Of course, I'm not saying this is competely necessary and it is totally up to the the Mods, who are doing a fantastic job.
But there are still several open areas, that can be looked into. I'll try to set it up in an easy overview - and try to do it wthout bias and with a sum up as far as I've read the threads (I haven't read it all).
1. How to count points
Since this cannot be done as a word count, there is a suggestion that it should be an average of the five most popular books to try to even out the page count between the different books.
My opinion: Five books are a lot to look up and calc for some people just to add a book. Maybe the first three?
2. Buddy Read points
The BR list exploded, so people can get their BR points. This is both a lot of (unnecessary) work for the Mods of the Group and since people are pushing so fast through the book, it creates a discussion vacuum, where people maybe just write a comment or about it. And it can make it harder for new people joining the Group to find and discuss books.
On the other hand this is a BR group and more points should be awarded for BRs.
My opinion: Maybe BRs should count as challenge? Or somewhere inbetween (1/3)?
3. Children book points
Children books are easier to read but counts as much as adult books.
My opinion: A suggestion has been made that it should count as graphic novels and I agree.
4. Sandbagging - adding points
This is a new subject and one that I approach tenderly. In every competition there are people who look at the rules and find a way to 'beat' them. I am one of those. And therefore I will add this point before it can become an issue.
With possible changes in the rules and new team mates joining we can have situations where it can be beneficial to wait to add points to the scoressheet. How can we handle that?
My opinion: Set a time limit for how long people can wait to ad books. If it's e.g. two weeks, people should have plenty of time to add them, and then when it's time for team/rules adjustments set up a timeframe so it's books read only two weeks before the adjustment phase (then people have two weeks to add them to still make them count).
Does it make sense?
And what am I missing?
My 2 cents:1. I think it was proposed we pick the highest page count within the five most popular editions of a book. Just using the most popular edition can lead to some problems: books counting for less points while actually being longer. I think that's the case for the Malazan books? That way, it's also easier to find the right page count.
2. Agreed. Most BRs don't have a real discussion.
3. Counting children books as GN is harsh in my opinion. It depends on how you're defining "children books". Picture books (then yeah, definitely GNs), middle-grade, YA? Maybe a middle ground solution... Like half the page points, not 1/4. I'm afraid it could create conflicts since we're all defining the "children books" differently.
4. I'm not sure what you mean. Is it for newcomers to the competition?
Virginie wrote: "4. I'm not sure what you mean. Is it for newcomers to the competition?Lets say e.g. those Bloody Eagles are tired of staying in the second spot and they know that the rules and teams are amended by the end of Q1 (11 days from now). So now they wait with adding their finished reads, so they fall behind the cold Jaghuts in order to get both more points from the amended rules and get more new team mates.
(this is just an example - no need to get your panties in a bunch).
I will throw in my 2 cents:1. I don't think an average will always work, I think it would be better to choose the highest pagecount from the most popular 3 or 5 books... Because when there's an audiobook with a pagecount of 15-30 among the most popular editions it will ruin the average. Also I think there are enough books out there with less than 5 editions at all... My Opinion: I wouldn't change the rule... It's complicated enough as it is and when there are changes there would be even more confusing.
2. I agree, Buddy Reads really worth a lot. I would be fine with reducing the bonus to 1/3 or 1/4. This might smooth the current situation out a little bit.
3. That's a tough point. First I think it will start a huge disscussions what should count as a children book and what didn't... Are we reading that many children books that this would matter at all? And do you could YA for example as Children books?
My opinion: Again, I think this will make things far too complicated. And I won't count YA Books as Graphic Novels. Why should these books only worth 1/4 of the points? Sure some of them are easier reads and have a less complicated story and worldbuilding. But I don't think this works for every book and every reader. For me it didn't make a big difference in the time I spent reading. For example Nevernight takes me lot longer to read than Prince of Thornes (which shouldn't count as a children's book for sure!)
4. I don't see why doing this would gain an advantage for one of the teams, but as I update quitr regular I wouldn't mind this additional rule.
Lundos wrote: "Virginie wrote: "4. I'm not sure what you mean. Is it for newcomers to the competition?Lets say e.g. those Bloody Eagles are tired of staying in the second spot and they know that the rules and t..."
Aaaah. I thought you meant it the other way around: newcomers waiting to finish books so they have points on it since the rules are so they can add "currently reading".
Ah, I missed the two comments while typing my response... Now I get what you mean with point 4. still I'm not sure this addition is necessary but wouldn't complain if you decide to add it :)
I am a bit disappointed of how this competition changed the dynamics of the group. People are too concentrated at the points and most buddy reads feel shallow for my taste as no real discussions are happening.I might just be burnt out, but I find myself checking the threads less often at each week that passes.
I thought the intention of this was to get the community together to discuss books. In reality most of the times I am only getting inundated of notifications of mostly empty threads and then people trying to figure it out how to increase points (from textbooks, to children books).
I am having fun with my group thread, but mostly because we are actually talking there and not necessarily about points.
Just my two cents rant.
P.S.: I don't have issues with people counting textbooks or children books.
Mod
1) I think the page variation is most noticeable in long books... 300 vs 350 pages is a lot less than 700 vs 1000 pages... I would suggest most people only bother when really long book seem to have low page counts...
2) agree
3) Children's book already don't count... do you mean middle-grade/YA?... losing 75% of points seems steep... I'm not sure that YA books are much easier than say the Sookie Stackhouse Buddy Reads we're doing... the difficulty here is finding the sweet spot... if there was a penalty, it should be relatively small...
4) Some teams (Tome Raiders) would be hit pretty hard with a time limit... Zaara explicitly only updates her spreadsheet once a month... and some people have it done for them... I think the best way to avoid this sandbagging is to make the rules change slightly retroactive... like starting March 1st... any rule change is going to require a subtotal row anyway, to keep the old formulas for old reads in January/February (/March)
(Haven't read anything past Lundos yet...)
Mod
Lets say e.g. those Bloody Eagles are tired of staying in the second spot and they know that the rules and t..."
I've been joking for weeks/months that that is Tome Raiders' secret battle strategy...
Mod
1. I don't think an average will always work, I think it would be better to choose the highest pagecount from the most popular 3 or 5 books... Because when there's an..."
Definitely don't count the 10-58 page book mixed in... that's the audiobook... where pages == hours... 10 hours = 300 pages... 58hrs = Oathbringer at 1350 pages...
3) I think the person that would be most affected by this is Julia... Rob's 9yr old daughter on our team... ranked 4th or 5th place...
so much talk about points over here! :DI agree with Miche in saying that this is turning into a "who gets more points for the team" competition rather than the "let's have fun and read a book together" group that was originally intended.
And my 2 cents regarding the children's books:
Take Scorpio Races for instance which is YA not children but I could easily read all 480 pages of it in a single day because of page layout and big font.
And then take Curse of the Mistwraith to compare. I wouuld need 4 days to finish the same 480 pages of this book because the writing is much more dense (pagewise, fontwise and narration wise).
So where does that leave us in terms of fair points? Scorpio Races as YA will easily fit in the same children books category in that case.
So my suggestion to the points problem would be another one.Leave all the books with the present point system and add a few extra points for heavy fantasy books like those of Erikson, Wurts, Sanderson etc. Compared to the amount of lighter reads people are reading in this group, the heavier ones should be a minor part.
Again, just my 2 cents. :)
Ad 1) So consensus so far is the longest of the first five for books over 500 pages from April?Ad 2) Consensus so far is to reduce the value of BRs to 1/3 (instead of 1/2) to give back the BR feel?
Ad 3) Consensus is that YA and middle school should count as normal and children books are out of the competition (how do we define it?), so nothing much to see here since we cannot add word count (no database). Some books are easier to read than others. It has always been so. Children of Time takes me longer to read than e.g. Ready Player One. The subjects are heavier and the thoughts from the books are different.
Ad 4) It hasn't been an issue yet, but it could be so some sort of guidelines should be set up. Maybe once a month could work?
I'm not saying there is an easy way, but at least make sure we can make some amendments so all enjoy at least the BRs and discussions more. It's the main purpose of the Group.
Iain wrote: "I've been joking for weeks/months that that is Tome Raiders' secret battle strategy... ":)
Mod
I agree with Miche in saying that this is turning into a "who gets more points for the team" competition rather than the "let's have fun and read a book toge..."
This morphed out of my participation in the Tome Raiders and House of Chains threads yesterday...
Every time the topic of changing the rules / point system comes up, I get a bit of a headache... I can only imagine how the mods feel... the ones responsible for making decisions...
Mod
Leave all the books with the present point system and add a few extra points for heavy fantasy books like those of Erikson, Wurts, San..."
I like this idea... kind of like an Editor's Choice thing... Mod's Recommendation...
Scott recommending everybody read Malazan would earn extra points... maybe Niki with a dragon series... I think Margret liked Raven's Shadow... not sure about Angela/Jenna (Oathbringer?)... was trying to use old Buddy Reads as an example...
There was also the idea that you should only get the bonus points when you actively participate in a Buddy Reads. I don't think that's a bad idea in general. Of course everyone can join Buddy Reads still, but you only get the extra points when you actually sit down and spare some time to discuss? The Bonus Points should be some kind of a reward and when you just pop in to say 'I've started/finished' there is not much difference to reading a book on your own... Maybe this would also stop people from joining BR just for the points...But again all the discussion about what book is worth what amount of points takes away the fun of the competition as well... I don't really care about who's going to win this competition, I cheer for my team when we get some points but I would also cheer for them when we finished last at the end of the year. So I don't get all the trouble, if someone get's more points for an easy read, I don't care. I'm happy for them.
I think one of the bigger issue is when someone get's less points for a big book because the popular edition has another page count (Malazan). When we adjust the rules like in point #1, this might help.
Other changes of rules like less points for easier reads or an extra bonus for heavier reads are difficult I guess, because it is always a bit subjective.
Iain wrote: "I've been joking for weeks/months that that is Tome Raiders' secret battle strategy..."Damn, we've been found out! ;)
Mod
I blame Choko for my zealous pursuit of points ;)... I'd probably be closer to Laura's points without Choko to compete against... I'm actually planning to drop my less fun series for new series in April/May as we hit the next big flood of series starting, I think...
I KNOW competitiveness is getting in the way, personally, a bit...
I've definitely overloaded myself with more fantasy books than I usually would, but I will probably also slow down on that front and read more other stuff towards the end of the year...it'll balance itself out, I'm guessing. Though competitiveness is getting in my way as well.
So many 2 cents here... How many have we accumulated? a few more and this guy will appear.
I think it's good to put more ideas here. Honestly though, I'm actually surprised by how competitive everyone get over points that don't have any prizes. I mean.. it's not like we get to shake hands with Sanderson or Steven Erikson for being a champion here.. Anyway, here's my 30 cents in order to summon that guy in the picture above faster.
I've been saying this from a few months ago but back then when I said it seems like the majority disagreed with me. I said it already, the BR points are too huge. Eventually it will end up being about hoarding points rather than doing a proper BR, as things are seems to be heading towards to now.
Now2, I'm not a BR person, regardless of the changes in rules it won't affect me. I'm just saying this from my experiences on what I consider a great "BR" and that's a thread where the readers actually discussed on a lot of stuff in the book instead of simply reading updates. I think it's stated in the rules that everyone have to stay in the thread if they finished early; this rule seems to have gone somewhere god knows where.
"I've started now." "loving it so far" "I finished, it was great/bad"
Proceed to other thread for more points. That's the way I see it and there are a lot of threads that can prove what I'm talking about. The only way I think that could fix this is to decrease the BR points to 1/4 and then put book of the month with the current 1/2 gain.
That way, everyone who want that huge point boost should join the book of the month and mandatory to stay in the discussion to get the point. I know that not all books can get the discussion like Oathbringer or Erikson's books but really, I did a Red Rising trilogy BR (300 pages book) with 3 person only and we still managed to somehow land a 100-200 comments thread for each book. Contrary to here with 600 pages book with a lot of people that gained mostly less than 100 comments discussion.
Petrik wrote: "So many 2 cents here... How many have we accumulated? a few more and this guy will appear.I think it's good to put more ideas here. Honestly though, I'm actually surprised by how competitive ev..."
I agree. I said that as well that the BR points are too large. I'm adding my 2 cents to your pool (let me know when we hid fiddy). The staggering number of buddy reads going on means the discussions are spread super thin. We should cap the buddy reads. Maybe like 5 or 10 a month. It'll draw more people to the reads and maybe start better discussions. While more people reading a certain book doesn't necessarily equal a better discussion, it does mean that there's a better chance that at least some of them will connect with the book enough to discuss it in detail.
I agree with Petrik and Diana here. For me personally the BRs have started to gather waaay beyond limit and I find myself unable to talk about a book the way I want to at times. I kept adding and adding because the temptation to "read even that one" is great but I find myself not having enough time to even review books the way I wish because I'm falling behind at reading others. So before BRs become a chore to do for points I'm going to cut mine down and keep only a few of them a month for books that I really wish to talk about.
I'll be losing BR points, that is true, but then gaining reading time by not being on GR. Besides, a BR with I started and finished and liked it somewhere in between is not much fun after some time. (and I'm starting to be in that kind more often nowadays :( ). I don't want to remember BRs just as scheduled dates to read certain books. And at present, this is how it's starting to look like for me.
Mod
For me personally the BRs have started to gather waaay beyond limit and I find myself unable to talk about a book the way I want to at times. I kept adding and..."
After much rumination, I just dropped Sookie Stackhouse, Drenai Saga, Sword of Truth, and Legend of Drizzt (after the last Icewind Dale book in a few weeks)...
Books/series I've been rating 2-3 stars and continuing with anyway...
Also dropped some that haven't (re)started yet, like Fitz and the Fool, and Heroes of Olympus and Black Gryphon/Valdemar...
I think I'll drop some as well...all the BRs I've joined are books I want to read, are books on my tbr list, but I like to be spontaneous and it takes the fun out of choosing my next book, plus I've overloaded myself. However, I am still having a ball with all the books we're reading :)
Mod
Mod
Everything else you mentioned I'm on board with. :)
Mod
Here's an anonymous poll: https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...
I'd love to see poll results and see your comments here on how you think it's going.
I am having a lot of fun. specially with the challenges i.e. cover, a-z, incomplete, and bingo. searching books for them is a treat because i stumbled upon books that i end up liking very much. :)
Manju wrote: "I am having a lot of fun. specially with the challenges i.e. cover, a-z, incomplete, and bingo. searching books for them is a treat because i stumbled upon books that i end up liking very much. :)"I dunno about the Team Reading Challenge itself but I love talking with my team. The rest though, I super love doing the bingo and book cover challenges and having an excel to keep track of everything! :)
I've enjoyed the quite a bit. The competitiveness has me reading more than in recent years, so I've all for it. I know three are no prizes, it is more about the community building and camaraderie.I do agree that buddy reads should in the future be worth either fewer points or have fewer scheduled. I'm having a tough time posting to all of them or being in sync with everyone so that i"m not just commenting after other's are all finished with the book. Also there are so many buddy reads on series I want to start but haven't had time to join in on that i know I'll be requesting those same buddy reads again next year for those of us who haven't read those series.
This has been great for getting me into more new series than I had been into in quite awhile.
Niki Hawkes wrote: "Soooo.... I feel compelled to ask: is anyone actually having fun with the Team Reading Challenge? Or are all the rule debates, different circumstances, and changing group dynamics turning this idea..."I'm still having fun. Problem for me is that I'm a competitive person and I kind of started feeling like I'm in a war I can't win. This month I started just saying screw it all. Once I accepted that I can't read every book, I am feeling a lot better about everything. I'm just adding those books that I can't read as a buddy read to my tbr list and hopefully another buddy read starts for them, and if not, one day I'll read them on my own. This challenge just kind of forces you to adapt a bit.
Niki Hawkes wrote: "Lundos- when you said "that sounds like sandbagging" on my thread I thought you were joking. We aren't hoarding points to pile them and change the stats (which wouldn't matter anyway because we're ..."I'm updating my spreadsheet as soon as I finish a book but that's because I'm keeping track of my challenges with it AND it's loading in less than 5sec for me. I understand that it can be a chore for people if their scoresheet is really slow. A time limit to add books would be even more stressing and frustrating.
And as Niki said... Even if every member of Tome Raiders updated right now their scoresheet, we would still be last :p (Don't care, we're the best :D)
Mod
Petrik wrote: "Manju wrote: "I am having a lot of fun. specially with the challenges i.e. cover, a-z, incomplete, and bingo. searching books for them is a treat because i stumbled upon books that i end up liking ..."well your team's thread is most active, so it's another huge perk to talk to other people specially when they're brought together by books.
I’m still having a blast with the competition. I’ve had to dump some buddy reads to remain sane. I also do not comment a lot in my BR threads simply because I’m fairly quiet. However, i do read every thread and enjoy reading other people’s likes and dislikes about a book.
Mod
Would be much more fun if Buddy Reads mattered less (the ideas about making the Book Club book valuable are nice and more open-ended throughout the entire month)... since the Challenges are much more free-form and just a bonus perk any time...
A competition that rewards reading, not reading specific books on specific days all year long...
I really like having a spreadsheet to track my books/reads/ratings/pages... I'll probably keep using one next year with or without a competition...
I'm having lots of fun. I had a period when it was stressing me a bit. I felt compelled to always read more and faster...But, well. Don't really care about the points now. The Bingo and Cover challenges are really fun, and our team conversation is awesome!
Like Petrik, I'm using the Excel to have cool stats about my reading and keep track of everything.
My opinion about a change of rules is... The simpler, the better. I don't really care if some people get points faster because they read less complex books or such things. It's a friendly competition and it should be fun.
I love it. I am making real progress in trimming my To-Read pile as I am using that for a challenge. I am getting a lot more reading done, and I have really gotten into audiobooks for this. Recently I have read a few books that have languished on my lists forever. I check Goodreads regularly, I love updating my spreadsheet, and I am pretty sure that if my team keeps up the current performance we will move up really fast!
Niki Hawkes wrote: "Soooo.... I feel compelled to ask: is anyone actually having fun with the Team Reading Challenge? Or are all the rule debates, different circumstances, and changing group dynamics turning this idea..."I'm having fun. I just ignore all that other stuff. I don't have time to worry about it or take it that serious. I enjoy every one of the challenges that I participate in and I always look forward to adding the books I just finished reading to them.
I think this year is our "beta test" for the competition. Anytime you do anything like this you have to iron out the kinks and revise the rules. Sounds like we're mostly having fun with it and that we have an opportunity to enjoy it even more next year once we're satisfied with the rule tweaks.
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