The Man Who was Thursday: Part Two - Chapters 7-11

[Frances, Moderator]

Curiouser and curiouser! As we enter the middle third of this novel, we learn that our characters are not what they seem.

First, we have the chase with Professor de Worms, inexplicably catching up with Syme as he races across the city, ending with …looking back over his shoulder he could see the black figure of the old gentleman coming after him with long swinging strides like a man winning a mile race. But the head upon that bounding body was still pale, grave and professional, like the head of a lecturer upon the body of a harlequin. Once again, we have a strikingly contrasting picture of a split personality (as we saw in the last section with Gogol and Gregory). And once again the bizarre and humorous explanation of how he came to be impersonating the real de Worms.

What particularly struck you as comic in other parts of this section?

Did any of the plot developments in this section surprise you?

How does Chesterton use the natural setting-sunrises/sunsets, the light in the woods/the weather-in his tale?

Near the end of this section, Ratcliffe explains why the anarchists are mostly the rich:

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn’t; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists, as you can see from the barons’ wars.

Do you think that this applies to what is going on in the world today?

Give us your thoughts on this section!

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

I thought the chapter in which Syme is chased by the Professor, who turns out to be another policeman, had a nightmarish mood, as Syme said himself. The description of Saint Paul's Cathedral creates an eerie atmosphere.

From Chapter 7:

Under the white fog of snow high up in the heaven the whole atmosphere of the city was turned to a very queer kind of green twilight, as of men under the sea. The sealed and sullen sunset behind the dark dome of St. Paul's had in it smoky and sinister colours--colours of sickly green, dead red, or decaying bronze, that were just bright enough to emphasize the solid whiteness of the snow.

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

Now we find out that Dr. Bull is also a detective and was interviewed in the dark.

Who is the mysterious man who has hired all the special detectives? I think there is something fishy going on. Four of the Days are special detectives-that doesn't seem right to me.

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

Chesterton describes London as being bleak and cold, yet in Calais there is a meadow full of wild flowers and an almond bush in blossom. I know it is further south, but not that much.
This book is entertaining and seems slightly surreal to me, but in a good way.

[Janice (JG)]

Rosemarie wrote: "Now we find out that Dr. Bull is also a detective and was interviewed in the dark.

Who is the mysterious man who has hired all the special detectives? I think there is something fishy going on. Fo..."

It occurred to me that maybe the whole group, including Sunday, are detectives, and they are simply disguised as anarchists and behave as anarchists in order to defame them and create an atmosphere of fear and danger surrounding them... entrapment of a sort. Reminds me of the FBI infiltrating protest groups in the Nixon years, urging the groups to make bombs or to commit trespass, etc. in order to be able to arrest them.

[Cleo]

Rosemarie wrote: "Chesterton describes London as being bleak and cold, yet in Calais there is a meadow full of wild flowers and an almond bush in blossom. I know it is further south, but not that much.
This book is ..."

Great observation. My book notes:

"Critics have noticed the abrupt, improbably weather changes in Chesterton's narrative. It opens with a garden party in Saffron Park at a time when leaves are on the trees. A few days later, when Syme is about to board a tug, we are told it was 'half-past one on a February night'. Earlier in the same paragraph Syme is said to have outfitted himself in an 'exquisite summer suit.' He arrives in London for breakfast with Sunday in 'glowing sunlight,' on an open-air hotel balcony. Below on the street are trees with 'sunlit leaves.' When Syme leaves the hotel, 'the bright, cold day had grown increasingly colder,' and it is starting to snow. The flakes soon 'thicken and fall fast.'

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

Maybe the whole thing is a dream!

[Pip]

Good point about the weather / time of year changing - and thanks for the additional notes, Cleo :-)

There have been many moments in the book when it really has felt like a dream or nightmare - sudden switches from being in one place to another; people suddenly being different to or even the opposite of what you thought initially and the way (sometimes) that those involved seem to take such switches in their stride, as if nothing has changed and all is normal. (For those of you who claim not to dream and have no idea of what I'm talking about, just watch an episode of Twin Peaks, or anything by David Lynch, really!)

I think Chesterton has created this oniric atmosphere very well.

[Pip]

Incidentally, I went ahead and finished the book. As the second and third sections merge together a bit in my mind, I'll avoid mentioning specific events unless it's in response to someone else's comment.

[Pip]

Frances wrote: "Near the end of this section, Ratcliffe explains why the anarchists are mostly the rich:

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn’t; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists, as you can see from the barons’ wars.

Do you think that this applies to what is going on in the world today?"

I do think this quote is relevant to what is happening in the world today. An example which is close to my heart is the recent EU Referendum in the U.K. The only reason it was held was to try and resolve in-party bickering within the Conservative party (the "barons" or true anarchists, according to the quote).

Simultaneously, austerity measures have been hitting the weakest hard and many feel their voice is just not heard. The result was that, given a direct vote by the government, people voted to protest against austerity rather than because they truly believed the country would be better off out of the EU.

Soooo.... the UK is in a state of chaos with a chaotic-looking future - not because of revolution by the poor, but because of political game-playing by the rich and powerful.

[end of political rant - but you did ask ;-)))]

[Cleo]

Rosemarie wrote: "Maybe the whole thing is a dream!"

I read somewhere that Chesterton said the mistake people made is that they didn't pay attention to the subtitle "a nightmare". It doesn't sound like his contemporaries understood the book any better than we do, if it makes anyone feel any better, lol! ;-)

[Cleo]

Pip wrote: "I do think this quote is relevant to what is happening in the world today...."

I think there are definite similarities, however I believe what Chesterton is trying to do with this novel in his commentary about the times, sets a very different tone than the approach people are taking nowadays. To elaborate more would give away the book so I'll wait until we finish to expand those thoughts.

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

I have just finished Chapter 11 and the book just keeps getting odder and odder. Who are all the marching men? Any army of anarchists just doesn't make sense to me. I always thought that Anarchists worked alone or in very small groups.

[Cleo]

I'm on chapter 8 so I'll have to get back to you! ;-) I really liked this quote, once I understood it:

"Through all this ordeal his root horror had been isolation., and there are no words to express the abyss between isolation and having one ally. It may be conceded to the mathematician that four is twice two. But two is not twice one; two is two thousand times one. That is why, in spite of a hundred disadvantages, the world will always return to monogamy."

It's so true ..... the closeness and camaraderie and trust that can be built between two people can't really equal anything else. You can not only feel Syme's relief but his exultation.

[Cleo]

Rosemarie wrote: "I have just finished Chapter 11 and the book just keeps getting odder and odder. Who are all the marching men? Any army of anarchists just doesn't make sense to me. I always thought that Anarchists..."

I will say that this is one book where I think it's beneficial to read what Chesterton meant by it before you actually read it!

[Janice (JG)]

Cleo wrote: "I'm on chapter 8 so I'll have to get back to you! ;-) I really liked this quote, once I understood it:

"Through all this ordeal his root horror had been isolation., and there are no words to expre..."

I hilited that same quote, Cleo, and after pondering it for a while I think I would come to the same conclusion.

[Cleo]

Janice(JG) wrote: "..... after pondering it for a while I think I would come to the same conclusion. ."

I know what you mean! At first, I said, "huh?" because I was concentrating on his mathematical impossibility but when I read it over I felt I understood what he was saying. Such a different book and I'm really enjoying Chesterton's unique style.

[Hilary]

Ah Frances, 'Curiouser and curiouser' indeed. The similarities to 'Alice' continue for me. The transformations which are helpfully provided by the characters themselves as certain of them peel off masks, wigs and moustaches. Et voilà, a new character! The Cheshire Cat could appear at any moment. The mad Duchess and the Red Queen would fit in well with some of the Anarchists portrayed in ' ... Thursday...'. The Queen might well give the President a run for his money! :-)

[Hilary]

I totally agree on your Brexit analysis, Pip. The rich and powerful are the troublemakers, jockeying for more and more power. Who cares about the poor on the bread line?! Chesterton's Anarchists would feel right at home with them, I am sure!

[Hilary]

It's funny that I just took the weather changes in my stride. Perhaps it is because of our weather here in Ireland (N. Ireland so part of the UK). September has thrown all sorts of weather at us. So when we arrived in Calais in the novel to discover a blossoming almond tree and beautiful flowers it was just par for the course for me. Even Northern France would expect noticeably warmer weather than the Northwest of this country.

[Brian E]

I did not expect this book to remind me more of Lewis Carroll or David Lynch, as noted by Hilary and Pip, or a tongue-in-cheek Kafka, than the intellectual Conan Doyle type I was expecting, but it does.
Since his politics and commentary was conservative rather than progressive, I wrongly expected his writing style and content to be also. I was thrown off by this story until the Professor turned out to be police and I thought "I bet the police will outnumber the anarchists." I now know to expect anything.
I agree with Rosemarie that the recruiter is the most interesting mystery.

[Hilary]

Oh yes, Brian, you're right, I had missed Pip's comment on the dream/nightmare sequence and the switching of persons and places.
As you say, Chesterton is not a Conan Doyle type. His characters almost mirror his unexpected personae. One really can't judge a book by its cover and as I haven't yet finished this book I certainly withhold judgment. So far there has often been a tendency for the unexpected to happen!