The Warlock in Spite of Himself

[[deleted user]]

This is the discussion for our chosen Classic SF/F Novel read for July:

The Warlock in Spite of Himself by Christopher Stasheff

[Michele]

I really hope you guys like this one, since I pushed for it :) I'll say right away, it isn't perfect, has some political preachyness and is a bit sexist in some ways. Keep in mind that Gwen turns out to be a fairly strong character, especially in later books, but in this one she's pretty much stuck playing by the rules of the society, which is very patriarchal.

I really enjoyed this early mix of scifi with fantasy and humor.

[Jim]

I'm hoping I enjoy the reread of it. It was a huge favorite, but I haven't read it in decades.

[[deleted user]]

Once again I blow the dust off ye olde paperback from the bookshelf. Darn, this thing doesn't have its own built-in light source and I need some sort of accessory to bookmark where I was reading when I put it down. Well, at least the paperback's battery is still charged. :)

I love reading the technological descriptions in older (1969) sci-fi. Discrete components, shorting capacitors. So quaint.:)

About half way through now. A couple of familiar elements. A regressed colony planet, in this case consciously made to resemble the Renaissance, and modern technology in a feudal setting. And highly chuckle-worthy.

[Ben]

Hope to at least attempt this one but with a recent newborn and lots of visitors my reading time and energy is somewhat deminished at the moment. It sounds like it would be a fairly light and easy read which is probably about the right speed for me at the moment.

[[deleted user]]

Wow, a blast from the past! I no longer have my copy (why? good question), so I thought, 'how about Kindle?' But it's over £6, and someone has posted a review saying they think part of the book is missing! So I've ordered a 2nd hand copy, and I'm hoping it arrives in time for me to read it with the rest of the group.

Also hoping I enjoy it as much as I did when I read it back in the distant past...

[[deleted user]]

One of the tiny things I'm enjoying about re-reading Warlock is Fess's music playlist. He's got a couple of classics, a hit from a musical I saw on Broadway in the 50's, and several folksongs that got me to break out the Bob Dylan, Peter Paul & Mary, Judy Collins, Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, and Woody & Arlo Guthrie LPs. (Of course this 60's nostalgia slows down the reading :)

[Jim]

I found the observation on literacy & the spread of knowledge interesting, especially in light of today's Internet.

These are 2 paragraphs from very early in the book. (view spoiler)[
It had long been known that the inefficiency of democratic governments was basically a problem of communication and prejudice. But, over a period of two centuries, DDT cells had functioned as speakeasy schoolrooms, resulting in total literacy and masters' degrees for seventy-two percent of the population; prejudice had thus joined polio and cancer on the list of curable diseases. The problems of communication had been solved by the development, in DDT laboratories, of sub-molecular electronics, which had lowered the bulk and price of electronic communication gear to the point where its truly extensive use became practical for the first time. Every individual was thus able to squawk at his Tribune at a moment's notice; and, being educated, they tended to do a lot of squawking just on general principles - all very healthy for a democracy.

Squawking by radio had proved singularly effective, due largely to an automatic record of the squawk. The problems of records and other bureaucratic red tape had been solved by red oxide audio recording tape, with tracks a single molecule in width, and the development of data-retrieval systems so efficient that the memorization of facts became obsolete. Education thus became exclusively a training in concepts, and the success of democracy was assured.
(hide spoiler)]

They contain a lot of ideas with varying degrees of success, at least by today's standards.
- Prejudice crushed by literacy & knowledge seems to be working.
- Instant communication & education fostering a healthier democracy doesn't, at least not yet. We seem to be more polarized than ever & much of the communication isn't worth the time to read.
- The idea that the communication was done via voice & tiny tapes that were then databased is interesting. It should be noted that the first email was sent about the time this book was originally published in 1969.
-Databases so efficient that no one memorizes facts. Google, anyone?
;)

[Mary]

What I remember best about the treatment of education in the books was that the educators were treated as wise and benevolent souls whose judgment was never suspect; whatever they taught you was right.

It was a fun series, I read a lot, but the trust in the wise educators. . . .

[[deleted user]]

Jim wrote: "- Prejudice crushed by literacy & knowledge seems to be working...."

I'm not sure I find this a compelling truth. Prejudice seems a deep-seated human ability to categorize ourselves into "us" and "them".


Jim wrote: "Instant communication & education fostering a healthier democracy doesn't, at least not yet. We seem to be more polarized than ever..."

I'd say that's more a consequence of cheap communication rather than instant. When communication was printing millions of newspapers or collecting hundreds of broadcast radio and TV stations into networks, there were only a few points of view offer. As communication has become cheaper with cable stations rather than conglomerates of broadcast stations and Internet websites you can build for practically nothing, it's become easier to self-organize into groups of like-thinking individuals to reinforce our beliefs that the other guys are evil/crazy.

I haven't decided if instant communication is necessary for democracy or just for any large political entity.


I do find the Cold War influences on the novel interesting, especially with the Marxian dialectic (and essentially conflating Marxian economics with USSR polity.)

[Daran]

I just ordered a copy. It sounds interesting, and I hope it will be fun.

[Michele]

True democracy without a corresponding training for the majority on critical thinking is a scary, scary idea.

And while today's educational system seems mostly focused on making students memorize factoids in case they are ever on Jeopardy! the education in this book is designed to make people into conceptual thinkers - a grand idea, but perhaps unrealistic for our future, at least as it's going now.

I like how Rod is old fashioned in the best ways without being a complete sexist, while he wants to be manly and protective, he's okay with being rescued by Gwen and never has a thought about replacing Catherine on the throne with a man.

When you get to the end, I'd be interested to know if you found the part with Big Tom to be confusing. I had to read it a few times to really get what was going on there.

I love Fess, he's one of my favorite sidekicks.

[Jim]

G33z3r wrote: "I'm not sure I find this a compelling truth. Prejudice seems a deep-seated human ability to categorize ourselves in..."

I think prejudice is taking quite a beating, didn't say I thought it was solved. A few decades can't wipe out thousands of years.

[Daran]

If you want to know how far we've come on prejudicial thinking, don't read a history books. Read the diaries of people 200 years ago. not only was stereotyping of races, religion and gender common, but it formed the foundation of conceptual thinking about civilization. Reading some upper class Brits wax on about the British Empire, you feel that they have no concept of self outside of their concept of what it is to be "British." Any extraneous interests or feelings outside what society determines correct for the class into which a person is sorted must be expunged.

I'm not saying that's entirely germane to the conversation. Just that it's indicative of how different people see not only others, but themselves, in relation to society

[Jim]

I finished & quite enjoyed it. No, it's not one of the great classics, but it was a lot of fun & had some meat to it.

[Kathy]

Oh wow!!!
I had totally forgotten about this book!!
I must go dig around and see if I still have a copy!!

And yes... Fess is an awesome sidekick.

[H.t.]

Finished last week. Overall fun and easy read. I like Fess' dry, robotic humour.

I did have an issue with the underlying assumption that a person from a more advanced age will be generally superior. Rod Gallowglass seems to be better at basically everything than the locals, even though he's only just arrived in a medieval world. A few lessons in judo and fencing won't make a man a better fighter than a medieval knight.

[Karen]

Finally finished it. Let me note that the Kindle edition seems to have gaps, which definitely took away form my enjoyment but I would give this 3.5 stars if GR allowed.

Overall I liked the idea of the book. However Rod's "love dilemmas" thoroughly annoyed me. I am not a fan of undying love at first sight and found it highly unbelievable that he had to figure out which of the two women he cared for after barely meeting them. Catherine is at best irritating, but surely Gwen deserved a better plot line than the farm girl desperate for love. I will concede that Rod's attitudes aren't sexist. He is fine with relying on Gwen and he has no issue with the concept of a queen. However I had difficulty with the sexist elements of the presentation.

Other than that I mostly liked the characters, except for Fess. I loved Fess and wish he had more dialogue. I was a bit confused by Tom though (view spoiler)[I could not figure out if he came from the future, the present but from another more advanced world or whether he had spent a large portion of his life on this planet. At one point he seems to imply growing up there, but then where did he get his doctorate and other knowledge? (hide spoiler)]