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Citizen Canine: Our Evolving Relationship with Cats and Dogs
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Barbara, Founder and Moderator
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Jun 30, 2014 01:33PM
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I am so glad it is finally July! Again, we are fortunate to have the author with us! I have one more chapter to finish and then I will introduce David and start some questions (I didn't know that one of the moderators would be posting questions for each book).But first of all, if you read and liked One Nation Under Dog, then you will also like Citizen Canine, although CC focuses on only only topic.
It is very very readable!
Mod
Skye, I haven't read it yet and have to go and get the book. So if you have questions for discussion, I would be happy if you posted them. I am more than happy for someone else to do so. So please discuss away and don't wait for me to post. I still have to read it yet.
I read this book a few months ago and liked it very much. I am happy that this is the book we are reading this month. I will be happy to participate in any discussion related to it. Enjoy Reading....:)
Mod
To whet your appetite, watch the video trailer of the book here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVJSp...
This has been an unusual month. First, with the Fourth of July, I didn't want to start asking questions of the author and then I had to leave town that weekend and leave again for a couple of days and I'm taking an online class but don't have Internet at home and am judging two writing competitions about dogs that are dragging on . . . I have finished the book (it is long but very readable and 'easy to put down and pick up again') and I have written my review but since I am now reviewing for another website, my reviews have to be different and that is hard to do - write a very long one and make a few reviews out of it that are different.
So, to begin, here is David Grimm's website - www.davidgrimm.com
Easy to remember, eh?
Who else has started the book or finished it?
Maybe I can just publish parts of the review here to give you a flavor of Citizen Canine.
Finally! I am late because I had to write two totally different reviews. I don't mind publishing them here, both of them, because this is a rather closed group. I haven't decided which one to post on GoodReads. Here is the first (the other will be tomorrow) and then I will engage the author. Feel free to join in! The shortest version is here at the bottom of the page this links to:http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cf...
Mod
I don't know if dogs and cats could ever become citizen's so to speak since there is no way for them to communicate. But, I do like that we are now making it against the law to abuse animals more so than ever before.
I hate seeing animals abused and tied up with little food and water and no one paying any attention to them.
Dogs are social and need that companionship in my opinion.
There is a difference between abuse and neglect. Unfortunately. And so many people are satisfied with their current relationship with their dog. As a trainer, I know how much closer they can become and how much fun it is!And I got notification yesterday that one town (can't recall where in the US) now makes both child abuse and pet abuse reportable. I will try to find that info.
Mod
Mod
http://columbia.patch.com/groups/john..."
I read this on that site..."Ohio Town Insists Veteran Get Rid of His Therapy Ducks: An Army veteran in West Lafayette, Ohio is in trouble with city officials who are demanding he get rid of the 14 ducks he has been raising on his property as a form of therapy after sustaining a back injury in Iraq in 2005. Some wonder if this might possibly make LeBron change his mind about Ohio and decide to go somewhere a little more hospitable to ducks. City officials demand to know why he doesn’t just ride motorcycles and shoot guns like most normal Vets? They insist that any doctor who told him to get ducks for therapy has to be a quack."
Why do they want him to get rid of the ducks? Is he using them as pets like he would as a dog? Not sure why there is a problem with them letting him have ducks if he wants them. If that's what he loves he should be allowed to have them.
Mod
http://columbia.patch.com/groups/john..."
And, thought this was cute..."Some Human Laws Now Being Extended to Pets: With pets now being viewed less as property and more like part of the family, legal experts say laws are changing to extend some of the legal rights humans possess to their pets. Yea, well if that’s really the case, would mind telling my neighbor’s dog that he now has the right to remain silent?"
Maybe he could just be quiet after 11 pm. lol.
Who has read Citizen Canine - all or parts of it? It is a long book but I don't think I was the only person who voted for it (I don't even remember if I voted for it!). For a non-fiction book, it is full of accounts that read like fiction - engrossing, even spell-binding. Let me pull up my review and I will write more. . . .
Family. Person. Citizen.The Family part is easy and in two parts. First came the domestication of the wolf into the dog (I am shortening history) either by man's grabbing some cute wolf cubs to raise or some wolves hanging around our campfire and slowly coming closer. Second, comes the dogs and cats who gradually move into our houses about 100 years ago. Two things made that possible - flea and tick preventive and treatment, and kibble!
The Person and Citizen part are looser in my mind. Can anyone else take a stab at it?
Thought the TOC might be helpful here (Table of Contents)Family - The Pet Republic, Wolves and Wildcats, The Rise of the Pet, and canine Einsteins
Person - The Eye of the Storm, The Protected pet, My Cat is Not a Toaster, and Civil Rights for Pets
Citizen - The Perils of Personhood, Citizen Canine, The Meowist Revolution, and The Road Ahead
Epilogue
A Brief History of Cats and Dogs
Mod
Skye, there were 5 people at least who wanted to read this book. Hopefully, they will join in the discussion.
I am new to this group, but I have to say that this is the coolest group I have joined yet. I have been reading you two's conversations, and they are really interesting. Both of you are clearly very smart and know what you are talking about! This is the kind of group I have been looking for! :)
Mod
If you live near Washington, DC, our esteemed author will be speaking and signing copies of his new book, Citizen Canine: Our Evolving Relationship with Cats and Dogs, next Tuesday, July 29th at 7 PM at Politics & Prose. Please feel free to spread the word!Event Details
Citizen Canine – Reading and Signing by author David Grimm
Tuesday, July 29, 7 PM
Politics & Prose
5015 Connecticut Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20008
202-364-1919
Mod
Anyone able to go here?
Maybe Melissa (I live close enough but can't make it).
The author, David Grimm, will be abler to join us a bit but will be on travel starting the 30th. i hope we can get him on the list in time, so be thinking of what you want to ask him!
Mod
David, If you could answer some of these that would be great and thanks for joining us.
-------------------
Citizen Canine
1. How long did the research, travel, interviews and writing take? Was it full-time? Did you take a leave of absence?
2. How did you select the organizations and people to interview that you did? Were there some that you just couldn’t arrange with – who/which?
3. Are you aware of Michael Shaffer’s One Nation Under God? Did you read that before your book?
4. Why did this particular publisher publish CC rather than a commercial publisher like Harcourt, Putnam, Hachette, etc.?
5. Which is your favorite of the three parts and which is your favorite chapter and why? Did some sections/stories not make it in to the book? Why?
6. How was it like to work with an editor when you are one yourself?
7. How was the title and cover photo selected?
8. This is such a huge book and I read it in two parts – perhaps the first 50 pages and then the rest. Forgive me if I have forgotten certain sections. You write of Miklosi, Hare, Bekoff, Darwin’s dogs (why am I not surprised, your being a geneticist?). But I don’t recall the silver foxes or Dr. L. David Mech (whom I worked under). Or puppy mills.
9. I dearly loved the history of the ASPCA and Henry Bergh. Thanks for relating that.
10. Can you (easily) provide the citation to the facts on p 122 about animal abusers being more than 5 times likely to become serial killers or at least commit violent crimes against people? That fact is thrown around a lot but this is the first I have heard about a study and would like to be able to reference it.
11. One thing that is in the news every day this summer, it seems, is how animals (dogs) and children are sometimes locked in cars and perhaps forgotten (or, just for a minute). I was happy to learn that LA is planning to create a program that will train grocery store employees to look for cats and dogs t rapped in hot cars as they collect shopping carts.
12. You have a chapter, My Cat is Not a Toaster. OK, I am not ‘with it’ anymore – but ‘toaster’ appears more than once in CC and I have a book called, It’s a Dog, Not a Toaster. Can you tell me a bit more about that comparison/phrase? Is it from TV (which we don’t have)?
13. Veterinarians are against pets becoming more important because then their malpractice insurance will skyrocket as people sue for larger amounts. Veterinarians are quite expensive as it is now and I just can’t imagine higher prices. I suspect insurance will become more popular and people will form into 2-3 classes of animal owners – those who can afford and expect the best, those who are regular families and kind of want the status quo, and those who will not be able to afford veterinary care and so, the animals will suffer. However, veterinary education is so expensive and they don’t earn the salaries that medical doctors do – and they are specializing, to boot.
14. Living in Maryland, I really appreciate the extensive coverage provided about the pit bull situation in Baltimore and Maryland and the names of some people and dogs I know. In a nutshell, for a couple of years, the courts decreed that pit bulls were inherently dangerous – the only state to have BSL (breed specific legislation). Finally, after publication of CC, our state legislature basically revoked that decision and made all owners of all dogs responsible for any damage. (please correct me if I’m not exactly right).
15. Can you give me the citations for the statements on p 199 – the 2005 analysis of bite strength as well as the two papers from 2008? It is hard for me to find the references in the Notes without footnotes. Was it Ort and Duffy for the 2008 papers?
16. Can you give us more information on ESAs – emotional support animals and airlines? That was news to me. I know there are only two questions we may legally ask someone with a service dog (Is that a service dog? What is the dog trained to do for you?) and that service dogs can go anywhere with their person that their person can go (because they are working) unless they are disruptive (usually by urinating or defecating or barking) but that in some states, a service-dog-in-training may have access only if accompanied by the trainer with certification papers from a service dog training organization. And I am familiar with PSDs, psychiatric service dogs, but am not familiar with ESDs.
Hi Everyone, Nice to meet all of you, and to see such a nice discussion of my book! Here are my answers to Skye's questions:
1. How long did the research, travel, interviews and writing take? Was it full-time? Did you take a leave of absence?
The book took four years to research and write. I have a full-time job as the online news editor at Science, so this was all nights and weekends. I have a very understanding wife. (Especially since we had twins while I was writing the book) :-)
2. How did you select the organizations and people to interview that you did? Were there some that you just couldn’t arrange with – who/which?
I was fortunate to be able to interview pretty much everyone I had set out to. There were a couple of folks I couldn't make work, but I ended up with even better people instead.
3. Are you aware of Michael Shaffer’s One Nation Under God? Did you read that before your book?
I was aware of this book. Shaffer's book deals mostly with the present--i.e. where we are now, in terms of our relationship with our pets. I was more interested in how we got here--and what happens next.
4. Why did this particular publisher publish CC rather than a commercial publisher like Harcourt, Putnam, Hachette, etc.?
Public Affairs (my publisher) is a commercial publisher. They've just been bought by Hachette.
5. Which is your favorite of the three parts and which is your favorite chapter and why? Did some sections/stories not make it in to the book? Why?
My favorite part is Part II (Person) because it contains two of my favorite chapters, Chapter 5 and Chapter 6. The only big story I couldn't get into the book was my visit to a medium-security prison in Louisiana. The prison is the only one in the county that has a pet shelter inside of it. I ended up writing this story up for The Bark (http://thebark.com/content/animals-am...)
6. How was it like to work with an editor when you are one yourself?
It was tough, because I'm used to having a lot of power (at Science), and suddenly I had a lot less power! :-)
7. How was the title and cover photo selected?
The title came early on, before I started writing the book. I was always a bit apprehensive about it, b/c it's so dog-centric, and the book is 50/50 cats and dogs. The compromise was to have a picture of a cat as well as a dog on the cover (although a lot of people don't see the cat!)
8. This is such a huge book and I read it in two parts – perhaps the first 50 pages and then the rest. Forgive me if I have forgotten certain sections. You write of Miklosi, Hare, Bekoff, Darwin’s dogs (why am I not surprised, your being a geneticist?). But I don’t recall the silver foxes or Dr. L. David Mech (whom I worked under). Or puppy mills.
There's a passage on silver foxes in Chapter 2, and I refer to them again in Chapter. 4. I'm not familiar with Mech. There is a bit of discussion of puppy mills in the book, but not much.
9. I dearly loved the history of the ASPCA and Henry Bergh. Thanks for relating that.
Yea, that's one of my favorite parts of the book!
10. Can you (easily) provide the citation to the facts on p 122 about animal abusers being more than 5 times likely to become serial killers or at least commit violent crimes against people? That fact is thrown around a lot but this is the first I have heard about a study and would like to be able to reference it.
I don't have that in front of me, but there is a reference section in the back of the book. You should be able to find it there.
11. One thing that is in the news every day this summer, it seems, is how animals (dogs) and children are sometimes locked in cars and perhaps forgotten (or, just for a minute). I was happy to learn that LA is planning to create a program that will train grocery store employees to look for cats and dogs t rapped in hot cars as they collect shopping carts.
Yes, Debbie Knaan is an amazing woman.
12. You have a chapter, My Cat is Not a Toaster. OK, I am not ‘with it’ anymore – but ‘toaster’ appears more than once in CC and I have a book called, It’s a Dog, Not a Toaster. Can you tell me a bit more about that comparison/phrase? Is it from TV (which we don’t have)?
Ha, great book title! I can't remember where I first heard that comparison, but it's one animal lawyers use a lot.
13. Veterinarians are against pets becoming more important because then their malpractice insurance will skyrocket as people sue for larger amounts. Veterinarians are quite expensive as it is now and I just can’t imagine higher prices. I suspect insurance will become more popular and people will form into 2-3 classes of animal owners – those who can afford and expect the best, those who are regular families and kind of want the status quo, and those who will not be able to afford veterinary care and so, the animals will suffer. However, veterinary education is so expensive and they don’t earn the salaries that medical doctors do – and they are specializing, to boot.
I've got an article coming out in Slate tomorrow (7-28) that may interest you...
14. Living in Maryland, I really appreciate the extensive coverage provided about the pit bull situation in Baltimore and Maryland and the names of some people and dogs I know. In a nutshell, for a couple of years, the courts decreed that pit bulls were inherently dangerous – the only state to have BSL (breed specific legislation). Finally, after publication of CC, our state legislature basically revoked that decision and made all owners of all dogs responsible for any damage. (please correct me if I’m not exactly right).
Several states have BSL, but Maryland's was one of the most draconian.
15. Can you give me the citations for the statements on p 199 – the 2005 analysis of bite strength as well as the two papers from 2008? It is hard for me to find the references in the Notes without footnotes. Was it Ort and Duffy for the 2008 papers?
Yes, it's Ort and Duffy.
16. Can you give us more information on ESAs – emotional support animals and airlines? That was news to me. I know there are only two questions we may legally ask someone with a service dog (Is that a service dog? What is the dog trained to do for you?) and that service dogs can go anywhere with their person that their person can go (because they are working) unless they are disruptive (usually by urinating or defecating or barking) but that in some states, a service-dog-in-training may have access only if accompanied by the trainer with certification papers from a service dog training organization. And I am familiar with PSDs, psychiatric service dogs, but am not familiar with ESDs.
I'm afraid I don't know much more about this topic than what I wrote in the book.
Thanks for all of the great questions!
David
www.davidhgrimm.com
Mod
Nice to meet all of you, and to see such a nice discussion of my book! Here are my answers to Skye's questions:
Hi David, Glad you found the group and thanks for joining. I just want to also let you know that when we do a book each month the book stays up then for discussion even when we are done with it. So, anyone can still discuss the book when they have time to read it later on.
5. Which is your favorite of the three parts and which is your favorite chapter and why? Did some sections/stories not make it in to the book? Why?
My favorite part is Part II (Person) because it contains two of my favorite chapters, Chapter 5 and Chapter 6. The only big story I couldn't get into the book was my visit to a medium-security prison in Louisiana. The prison is the only one in the county that has a pet shelter inside of it. I ended up writing this story up for The Bark (http://thebark.com/content/animals-am...)
Thanks David. I'm interested in reading more about the prison and how they train the animals, etc. in there.
7. How was the title and cover photo selected?
The compromise was to have a picture of a cat as well as a dog on the cover (although a lot of people don't see the cat!)
Interesting. I did notice the cat.
11. One thing that is in the news every day this summer, it seems, is how animals (dogs) and children are sometimes locked in cars and perhaps forgotten (or, just for a minute). I was happy to learn that LA is planning to create a program that will train grocery store employees to look for cats and dogs trapped in hot cars as they collect shopping carts.
Yes, Debbie Knaan is an amazing woman.
I hope they do that everywhere. I hate seeing children and animals in hot cars. I never will understand why people don't "get it" that they could die like that.
Mod
I have never heard of that term before.
14. In a nutshell, for a couple of years, the courts decreed that pit bulls were inherently dangerous – the only state to have BSL (breed specific legislation). Finally, after publication of CC, our state legislature basically revoked that decision and made all owners of all dogs responsible for any damage. (please correct me if I’m not exactly right).
Several states have BSL, but Maryland's was one of the most draconian...."
I think it's sad that pit-bulls get such a bad rap. My son had a pit-bull and they are so sweet as long as the owner trains them right. It's people like M. Vick who give the dogs a bad name, and it's not the dogs fault for what they are made to do. Pits are gentle for the most part, unless there is a bad owner who won't train the dog properly.
Mod
Also, Do you write for Bark magazine? I thought you had mentioned it.
Hi Barb, I've written just the one article for Bark (linked above. Btw, here's the Slate piece, just publishedhttp://www.slate.com/articles/health_...
David, you have just gone above and beyond! Thank you! Unfortunately, I am dog sitting this week with no Internet access so I will not be able to read the responses til next week! Looking forward to it! Thanks!
Here is a link to an NPR (local) interview with David Grimm yesterday. I believe it is an hour, on the Kojo Nnamdi show (he was also the subject of a one-hour interview with Dianne Rehm a few weeks ago)http://thekojonnamdishow.org/shows/20...
