Outlander Series discussion
Outlander on Starz S3
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E4 - "Of Lost Things"
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Wow as usual this was quite a touching episode. I was especially touched to see Roger holding the plane at the end signifying his fathers death in the RAF. Also I was taken with how much Genevia looked like Claire. I never pictured her like that - more looking like Laoghaire. Maybe because when I read it I was seeing her spoiled attitude. Does Isobel know anout Willie from the book perspective? I didn't think so but I may have missed that detail. It seems like the story is moving so fast in the series but when I think of what is still to come we have just begun. They are doing a great job and though it does not exactly follow the books I have no complaints.
Grins -- well I have held off watching until tonite but am looking forward to it. Funny, but I never pictured Geneva as looking like Claire and all but will see
Ep 4 was excellent! They really cast Geneva (Hannah James) well as it DOES take an excellent actor to hate them so effortlessly.What I found good was how true to that part of the book it was and that they really didn't have to leave much out.
I really liked Jamie's interaction with Willy and look forward to seeing more of him once the series solidly transitions to NA
This episode seemed low key, as the next one will be so eventful. I think they could have done a better job casting Brianna. I was actually only captivated by the Geneva and Wilie characters this episode.
Diane wrote: "Wow as usual this was quite a touching episode. I was especially touched to see Roger holding the plane at the end signifying his fathers death in the RAF. Also I was taken with how much Genevia lo..."I agree with you, Diane. I wondered if Geneva reminded Jamie of Claire. Sam Heughan is such a wonderful actor. He makes you feel Jamie's agony at having to leave Willie.
I thought Geneva was well played -- if an actress gets despised to that extent she must be good. I liked Willie -- we will see him again fortunately when in NA (view spoiler)
I thought it was a great episode. Heartbreaking at the end when Jamie had to leave Willie. Geneva was very well played, came across as the spoilt brat we know from the books but also made me feel a bit sorry for the poor girl being married off to the awful old coot. The scenes with Jamie and Willie were great, what a great little actor they found to play Willie & I love the Jamie & Lord John scenes together. Sam & David Berry are brilliant, I thought the scene where Jamie asks him to look after Willie was almost perfect.No, I dont think anything was ever said about Isobella knowing about Willie in the books, but I always got the impression that she had a bit of an idea. But I cant for the life of me remember what gave me that idea
Yeah that came as surprise as I didn't think she directly KNEW as per the book I don't think it was a direct reveal.But it wasn't farfetched enough to spoil the episode
Overall good!
Geneva in the clutches of Red Jamie -- or is it vice versa??
Loved it. I love seeing Roger and Bre's relation grow. Say what you eill about Lord John...I like him.I think it got a little dusty at the end...i may have been in tears. I think I almost like this part better then the book. I know its hard to take a book and make complete episodea but they did a really good job.
Enjoyed the episode but glad we are passed it. Not a fan of Helwater. I was actually surprised I liked the episode as much as I did.I thought Geneva did a great job but I thought the passion was too much for the coupling (view spoiler). Obviously they are spicing things up this season but I don't feel it was appropriate for the scenario. I always interpreted Jamie as gentle and kind during this scene but I never imagined passion.
Also hoped they would omit Jamie's proposition to LJG, always thought it was out of character and unnecessary (like intensely hated this dialog). IMO it actually undermines their friendship. Additionally if Jamie feels that's what motivates LJG, why would he want his son exposed to him considering what happened with Fergus. (view spoiler) I would like to believe that LJG's genuine friendship with Jamie replaced his man crush. .
Zoey wrote: "I thought it was a great episode. Heartbreaking at the end when Jamie had to leave Willie. Geneva was very well played, came across as the spoilt brat we know from the books but also made me feel a..."Since I haven't read all of the books yet, can you tell me if there is some symbolism in Geneva wearing blue so often?
Sharon wrote: "I did really like the episode with one exception. Starz changed Jamies gift of a Rosary to his son to a gift of a carved snake for no good reason. As a parent you would give the last thing you had ..."I listened to the commentary in which the producers explain that they changed it because in all historical accuracy, Jamie would NEVER have been allowed to have a rosary in Ardsmuir, and someone had the idea that he could give Willie a Sawny instead.
Gina wrote: "Zoey wrote: "I thought it was a great episode. Heartbreaking at the end when Jamie had to leave Willie. Geneva was very well played, came across as the spoilt brat we know from the books but also m..."Nope. I don't think she does in the books. It was probably A: to contrast her from Claire who wears a lot of brown and yellow and B; because the color looks pretty on Hannah, the actress. Also it speaks to how cold she is as a character.
Can I just say how absolutely perfect that Bob Dylan song at the end of the episode was? I love 1960's folk music anyhow, but the version they used was beautiful and did not in any way clash with the Jamie scenes because of the simple acoustic feel.
Hi Sharon,I don't know if this helps, but following the episode is a 2 minute behind the scenes of what it took to make the episode (at least there is in the U.S.).
They explained that they made the change because Jaimie wouldn't really have his rosary to give at that point. It would have been taken from him at Ardsmuir prison. It was the practice of the British to take all religious items from their prisoners. So to be true to the history, they felt like they had to find a substitute since Jaimie would never have been allowed to keep it.
I am not saying that I agree or disagree with that, but I thought I should share it so you would know why.
Silverblades wrote: "Gina wrote: "Zoey wrote: "I thought it was a great episode. Heartbreaking at the end when Jamie had to leave Willie. Geneva was very well played, came across as the spoilt brat we know from the boo..."Thank you for the explanation. I think Claire would look equally beautiful in blue but perhaps that color would only be easily attainable to those with money. I canna wait until Sunday's episode! ;)
Gina wrote: "Silverblades wrote: "Gina wrote: "Zoey wrote: "I thought it was a great episode. Heartbreaking at the end when Jamie had to leave Willie. Geneva was very well played, came across as the spoilt brat..."The earthy colors Claire wears are based on a lot of her clothes in the books as well as her role as a healer and the time she spends with gardens and herbs. Also the fact that in the books, her eyes are an amber-gold color, whereas Caitriona's are blue.
Silverblades wrote: "Can I just say how absolutely perfect that Bob Dylan song at the end of the episode was? I love 1960's folk music anyhow, but the version they used was beautiful and did not in any way clash with t..."Although Bear's music is perfect for the series, I too loved them using Dylan. It fit the scene amazingly...... This series, even though not 100% accurate with the book, is by far the best adaptation I've seen. Poldark's script writer Debbie Horsfield is making a mess of things on that series.
Can anyone on the thread tell me why Claire gave her pearls to Ms Graham.... I must have missed that in the book.... I thought she would keep them for Brianna.Geneva got all hot when Jamie tossed her in the mud..... dirty girl.
Ken wrote: "Can anyone on the thread tell me why Claire gave her pearls to Ms Graham.... I must have missed that in the book.... I thought she would keep them for Brianna.Geneva got all hot when Jamie tossed..."
In the book Claire kept the pearls. In the show, we never saw her bring them back with her, and the showrunners wanted her to have them, probably so that she could leave them with Brianna, so they decided to have her get them back through Mrs. graham and Fiona
Thanks Silverblades...... I didn't remember it wrong..... I don't mind them changing a few things as long as they keep the core values of the characters, and their interactions.
Sharon wrote: "Thanks Scott, I saw that but Diana Gabaldon, who is very detailed oriented had it in the book and I still think they should have followed the book They could not have tartans either but a prisoner ..."The prisoner that had the tartans was Murtagh, which is another departure from the book because he died at Culloden. I wonder if they plan on bring him back in the story after the prison closed?
Metessa wrote: "I thought Geneva did a great job but I thought the passion was too much for the coupling . but I don't feel it was appropriate for the scenario. I always interpreted Jamie as gentle and kind during this scene but I never imagined passion. ..."He hasn't slept with a woman in years. Passion doesn't mean love, or even caring. I had no problem with the scene as played. If a man has been without long enough, It takes almost nothing for him to climax and a climax equals passion or excitement if that is a more comfortable term.
Metessa wrote: "Also hoped they would omit Jamie's proposition to LJG, Additionally if Jamie feels that's what motivates LJG, why would he want his son exposed to him ..."
In a later book, that is explained.
Silverblades wrote: "I listened to the commentary in which the producers explain that they changed it because in all historical accuracy, Jamie would NEVER have been allowed to have a rosary in Ardsmuir, and someone had the idea that he could give Willie a Sawny instead..."I had no problem with Sawny but I do with the logic behind the switch. I read of war prisoners who have made rosarys out of any odd material.
Grandmat wrote: "Metessa wrote: "I thought Geneva did a great job but I thought the passion was too much for the coupling . but I don't feel it was appropriate for the scenario. I always interpreted Jamie as gentle..."Not too different from Frank in the way that both of them had gone without a "loving" touch from a woman. Jamie didn't seek Geneva out. He was blackmailed into it and although he found pleasure with Geneva, he didn't stop loving Claire because of it. Frank got his wife back but it wasn't the Claire he knew and, by mutual agreement, found fulfillment elsewhere.
Silverblades wrote: "Can I just say how absolutely perfect that Bob Dylan song at the end of the episode was?"I was puzzled by the choice of songs. As a college student in the mid sixties - yes, I'm that old. - rumor was rampant that the hard rain was nuclear fall out. But later, Dylan denied this. Even if not nuclear, the lyrics are horribly depressing to an apocalyptic degree, rather than intense sadness.
Grandmat wrote: "Metessa wrote: "I thought Geneva did a great job but I thought the passion was too much for the coupling . but I don't feel it was appropriate for the scenario. I always interpreted Jamie as gentle..."I thought the series explained the very well with Jamie's explanation to Geneva about the difference between love and sex.
Gina wrote: "Grandmat wrote: "Metessa wrote: "I thought Geneva did a great job but I thought the passion was too much for the coupling . but I don't feel it was appropriate for the scenario. I always interprete..."Gina I disagree with that last part of your comment. In the book there was never a "mutual agreement" though Claire did figure it out and lived with the knowledge. She never had an affair when she was with Frank and never approved of his many affairs. I think they candy coated it way too much in the series so there wouldn't be so many Frank haters. That was the problem with the books, I think, that made so many people hate Frank.
I loved this episode! Geneva was played great. The scene where she was dropped in the mud was awesome. Her reaction was priceless. In the behind-the-scenes after the episode they said they had to make Geneva 5 costumes so they could reshoot that scene over and over. So poor girl got dropped in the mud multiple times!Also in the behind-the-scenes episode was the explanation of the rosary. It makes sense to me. Additionally, if anyone would've ever found that rosary with Willie, he would've been in big trouble. With the sawny, he could openly have it all his life and it would be all right.
As far as the song at the end of the episode, I didn't know the lyrics but the melody and sound was perfect. I loved it. It definitely helped me tear up at the end. I don't remember them using such a modern song before but it just was so melancholy that it fit perfectly for me. Now, maybe had a know the lyrics and meaning of the song I might think differently but at first watch it was so bitter and sad. Heartbreaking, just like what was going on on screen.
Sharon wrote: "I did really like the episode with one exception. Starz changed Jamies gift of a Rosary to his son to a gift of a carved snake for no good reason. As a parent you would give the last thing you had ..."I agree. I didn't like this change either. You can hand-craft a rosary out of string and wooden beads just as you can hand-carve a wooden snake. Starz's explanation rang false to me. I think they had another reason for removing the rosary. Overall an entertaining episode, and they get kudos for quite a lot, but purposeful changes that don't make sense are disappointing to me.
Diane wrote: "Gina wrote: "Grandmat wrote: "Metessa wrote: "I thought Geneva did a great job but I thought the passion was too much for the coupling . but I don't feel it was appropriate for the scenario. I alwa..."Thank you for clearing that up. Since I've only read the first book, I'm not yet aware of how Claire and Frank navigated through their marriage. The way the show portrayed it, it did make me feel sympathetic toward Frank.
Metessa wrote: "Enjoyed the episode but glad we are passed it. Not a fan of Helwater. I was actually surprised I liked the episode as much as I did.I thought Geneva did a great job but I thought the passion was ..."
Metessa wrote: "Enjoyed the episode but glad we are passed it. Not a fan of Helwater. I was actually surprised I liked the episode as much as I did.
I thought Geneva did a great job but I thought the passion was ..."
Hi, Actually Jamie does offer himself to LJ in the books as payment for him looking after William and in fact Jamie kisses John on the lips after he offers him his friendship . They cut that out. Geneva came across that she was spoiled but also a bit pitiful she was a young smart woman and did not like being a pawn but she was not above blackmail and that is the thing people are forgetting. I agree on the scene being so sexy was a direct result of people complaining season 2 was lackluster in that area . In the books Geneva during that coupling is more critical. I will not get into anything else regarding the book depiction versus the TV depiction of that scene. I am not a Frank fan he was very cold in the books but they love Tobias so they beefed up Franks role just as they humanized Geneva . I try to separate the books and the show now as much as I can . I am glad they used many actual book lines in this episode. We all have huge expectations of the reuniting and all that follows . I hope they do it justice . I am a bit tired of seeing older somber Claire. These two need to be together !!
Gina wrote: "Diane wrote: "Gina wrote: "Grandmat wrote: "Metessa wrote: "I thought Geneva did a great job but I thought the passion was too much for the coupling . but I don't feel it was appropriate for the sc..."And if you are just watching the show for what it is (many people are and have chosen not to read the books because they want to enjoy the series with out comparison) your interpretation is spot on. I love seeing the fuller character of Frank in the series but that was one sticking point for me because of having read the books.
Kailey wrote: "I was expecting this episode to be controversial, but was surprised when one of the more morally vague pieces of dialogue was excluded (i.e Geneva telling Jamie to stop, but he continues). That asi..."And making Geneva sympathetic really bothers me. She's not. She's a manipulative witch with a b.
Parker wrote: "Kailey wrote: "I was expecting this episode to be controversial, but was surprised when one of the more morally vague pieces of dialogue was excluded (i.e Geneva telling Jamie to stop, but he conti..."I loved how the guys would draw straws to see who would deal with Geneva then tease the looser. I didn't feel any more or less sympathetic toward herin the show than in the books. I think that is because she played the spoiled, entitled, rich, brat so well. Also when reading the book I was horrified at her arranged marriage and pictured a very much older and disgusting looking man than the actor that played Ellesmere.
The book was able to spend the necessary time setting the scene for Helwater, and the bleakness of a period in which not only Jamie, because of his prisoner status, but Geneva, as a wealthy young woman of the time, had no control over their own destinies. The show, having so much less time to handle this scene, nevertheless did an admirable job. Geneva’s rage and frustration at being forced to marry an older, unattractive man and become his property was extremely well done, as was Jamie’s lonlinessness and weary acceptance of his fate. Without Claire, he is a shell. So far, I am truly impressed at how well the show has been able to condense the book without losing its atmosphere. Kudos to the actors!
I couldn't agree with you more, Monica.... It must be a challenging task to condense the shear volume of material and not loose the flow of the story. For me this is the best adaptation of a book series I've watched.Other series like Poldark are not fairing so well with readers... The script writer Debbie Horsfield is rewriting the core characters and changing the story to jump between cherry picked scenes in the books.
I'm glad the Outlander family is invested in giving us a faithful series...... I'm reading the books as I'm watching, sure some small things are different, but I can live with that.
Yes, Ken, condensing huge books is always a conundrum: what do you leave out, what do you condense, how much do you change? Any book to movie (or tv series) suffers comparison; the Harry Potter movies (at least the first few) were vilified by some fans, and Game of Thrones has also been criticised (mostly for rape scenes that seem to be just stuck in and not critical to the plot). I'm really enjoying Poldark, and for me, the characters and scenes follow the books extremely well.I hadn't looked at Geneva from that point of view before (feeling trapped), but now that you mention it...yes. That's EXACTLY what she's feeling. Having sex with someone she chooses is her way of perhaps taking some part of her life under her own control.
I’m enjoying Poldark as well, but I watched the first two seasons before I read the books, and I wonder if that had an impact on my expectations. The series is my reality therefore, the books have less comparison impact, although they’re great. I had read all the Outlander books twice through before the series even began, so they are my base. I do agree that the continuity of writing from books to screen seems a bit better in Outlander, but I want to be fair. For me, no matter how many times Aidan Turner takes off his shirt, it’ll always be Jamie and Claire!
Monica wrote, 'For me, no matter how many times Aidan Turner takes off his shirt, it'll always be Jamie and Claire!' Me too, Monica. Although Aidan Turner is sexy, there's just something about Sam and Catriona that just sizzles.
I'm guessing we will catch that hopefully tonite or worst case in about a week -- they really are moving smartly along!Funny -- beginning this week i jumped back into Netflix's Narcos -- a day after Helwater...talk about culture shock
Directed by: Brendan Maher
Written by: Toni Graphia
Air Date: October 1, 2017