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The Masqueraders August 2017 Group Read Chapters 17-32
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Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂
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Aug 01, 2017 03:55AM
So how are you finding it so far?
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I read it years ago and found the basic premise a bit hard to accept. I do remember, however, hearing someone suggest that it should be filmed with Vanessa Redgrave and David Hemmings in the lead roles--so you can figure out how long ago that was! : )
I found it hard to believe, too, and that's probably why I've only read it once before, but I've been thinking about it a bit. My best friend has two daughters who tower over their more slightly-built and shorter brothers. If an APB came out on one of the brothers for, say, a 5'3", 120# man would anyone be fooled by a 5'9", 150# "man"? Well, actually, considering the heavy clothing and wigs and make-up of the period, I think it could work! So I've got to say I'm a bit more accepting than before... And I really am enjoying it much more this time. I'm still not crazy about the egotistical old gentleman, but I do love Prue and the sleepy mountain.
MaryC wrote: "I read it years ago and found the basic premise a bit hard to accept. I do remember, however, hearing someone suggest that it should be filmed with Vanessa Redgrave and David Hemmings in the lead r..."They would have been perfect!
I was thinking I find most of the Georgians (other than Faro's Daughter) more romantic than GH's Regencies.
They are more romantic, Gothic even at times. The Regencies are sometimes frothy, but at the same time they're more reasonable!
Carol, Karlyne, I think you're right! Ironic that such escapades seem more believable in the Neo-Classical Era than in the Romantic, but when I think of the few 18th-century novels I've read, they're certainly farther out than most from the Jane Austen era! (My 18th-century English Lit. professor would cringe at the thought!)
And perhaps we’re looking for the wrong thing if we’re looking for realism in any of these stories. I think Heyer was (especially as she got older) extraordinarily skilled at combining psychological believability with fantasy situations.
Just starting chapter 18 of the kindle version and I do find Tony's scheming to protect Prue romantic and clever! Don't like the old gentleman, he's really no better than a con man and I can't help but be sad thinking of the rackety childhoods he imposed on his children!
I'm up to Chapter 20 now, and enjoying the developments so far. Yes Prue and her sleepy mammoth are lovely together. But I'm in two minds about 'the old gentleman'. He is clever, funny and charming, but painfully egotistical. I agree Susan - it's unfortunate the way the children were raised.Abigail - I kind of agree with you too. I don't think we should be reading this book for its realism, but for its entertainment value.
Jan130 wrote: "I'm up to Chapter 20 now, and enjoying the developments so far. Yes Prue and her sleepy mammoth are lovely together. But I'm in two minds about 'the old gentleman'. He is clever, funny and charming..."What strikes me this time thru' is not just that the old gentleman is egotistical - he is a complete, raging narcissist. I used to find it funny, but now watching the real-time effects of a complete, raging narcissist in a position of power has robbed the character of some of his former charm for me, I'm afraid. : (
Also, considering what a complete, raging narcissist he is, I can only conclude that Prudence and Robin's mother must have been the humanizing, civilizing influence that made them decent human beings.
Susan in NC wrote: "Just starting chapter 18 of the kindle version and I do find Tony's scheming to protect Prue romantic and clever! Don't like the old gentleman, he's really no better than a con man and I can't help..."That's exactly what I thought Susan; quite frankly his monumental and totally unfounded egotism is not even funny most of the time. I really disliked him.
Elliot wrote: "Jan130 wrote: "I'm up to Chapter 20 now, and enjoying the developments so far. Yes Prue and her sleepy mammoth are lovely together. But I'm in two minds about 'the old gentleman'. He is clever, fun..."Oh I'm sorry that has happened to you Elliot! We have an absolute narcissist in our life & knowing "B" has made the Masqueraders reading even funnier for me this time!
I would like to put in a good word for how well GH did the supporting cast of young men who took Peter Merriot into their group of friends. I was amused by Deveraux, of course, and I really, really liked Charles Belfort--so decent and steady. There's a remark toward the end of the book that reveals his good-natured charm:"(character X) was found to be well-versed in the ways of the world, and could tell an entertaining tale. Mr Belfort enrolled him promptly in the numerous ranks of his intimates."
Elliot wrote: "Jan130 wrote: "I'm up to Chapter 20 now, and enjoying the developments so far. Yes Prue and her sleepy mammoth are lovely together. But I'm in two minds about 'the old gentleman'. He is clever, fun..."Thank you, Elliot, for confirming what I was feeling! I had brain surgery in June and my recovery is going well and I'm a news junkie and was feeling the similarities between the real life raging narcissist and the Old Gentleman, but as this is my first reading I wasn't sure if I was imagining it and imposing one outrageous character on another.
Carol, I like your attitude, very positive!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "I would like to put in a good word for how well GH did the supporting cast of young men who took Peter Merriot into their group of friends. I was amused by Deveraux, of course, and I really, really..."Yes, they are delightful and so painfully sincere, it's sweet!
Elliot wrote: "Jan130 wrote: "I'm up to Chapter 20 now, and enjoying the developments so far. Yes Prue and her sleepy mammoth are lovely together. But I'm in two minds about 'the old gentleman'. He is clever, fun..."Do we know anything of their mother? I agree, someone made them decent people and I don't think it was their self-centered father!
Susan in NC wrote: "Elliot wrote: "Jan130 wrote: "I'm up to Chapter 20 now, and enjoying the developments so far. Yes Prue and her sleepy mammoth are lovely together. But I'm in two minds about 'the old gentleman'. He..."There's a little discussion of the old gentleman's wife (would that make her "the old lady"? Asking for a friend). We learn that Prue is supposed to be like her, and we do find out at the end that she was a farmer's daughter, so definitely of a different social class than her husband, even if she is a "gentleman farmer's" daughter. I like to think - based on zero textual evidence, btw - that she saw right thru' her bombastic husband, but loved him anyway, and was shrewd, tough, and practical enough to be able to make a semblance of a home life for herself and the children with a husband and father who's a cross between a magician and grifter.
Okay I have a gripe - why weren't the Merriotts cross examined as to the people they were visiting in Barnet? Modern day evidence collection would demand proof of alibis.
Oh, in the mid-1700s we're way before modern detective methods. There won't even be an organized British police force for nearly another century (the Metropolitan Police were founded in 1829).
Belinda wrote: "Okay I have a gripe - why weren't the Merriotts cross examined as to the people they were visiting in Barnet? Modern day evidence collection would demand proof of alibis."Also aristocrats.
If you read Ngaio Marsh, she has her upper classes expecting special treatment in the 20th century!
Mod
Well, they weren't initially suspects, were they? And as soon as they were, or at least 'Peter' was, they disappeared pronto.
Mod
I can suspend disbelief in unlikely plot elements right enough, but I just cannot see in my mind a picture of these two, as they are described, that look anything like credible members of their opposite sexes.
I can't believe in the 'tipping a glass of wine down the sleeve' trick either. As soon as we hear of 'Peter' doing it, I can see a great wet stain appearing all over 'his' arm - why would it not? Even with a towel up 'his' sleeve, which we aren't told about, it would still be incredibly messy.
Mod
I mentioned in one of the other threads that he reminds me very much of Wilfred Steane in Charity Girl (view spoiler)
Jenny wrote: "My big problem with this book is that I just can't believe in the masquerade. I cannot build a picture in my mind of a slim, fit man wearing a low-cut C18th evening gown and looking like anything o..."Very good points, I agree - I just can't believe it.
Jenny wrote: "My big problem with this book is that I just can't believe in the masquerade. I cannot build a picture in my mind of a slim, fit man wearing a low-cut C18th evening gown and looking like anything o..."I have some of the same reservations, Jenny. It's the old thing of 'suspending your disbelief' I suppose, if you want to really enjoy the story as it was intended. But I'm starting to find it a bit tedious, actually..... *ducks a shower of peanuts from disgruntled GH fans*
Jan130 wrote: "Jenny wrote: "My big problem with this book is that I just can't believe in the masquerade. I cannot build a picture in my mind of a slim, fit man wearing a low-cut C18th evening gown and looking l..."No peanuts, I agree with you! I'm enjoying Tony and Prue, but have reached the point where it's tedious and I'm wondering how Heyer will resolve all of these loose ends! It's my first time reading this one, but it hasn't worked it's way into my top five favorite Heyer novels.
Thanks all for the answers re the alibis. The aristocracy certainly seemed to be above the law to a certain extent which clashes with my modern day morales. Ngaio Marsh seems to have a fairly similar track record to GH!Overall I'm finding it a good enjoyable romp provided you suspend disbelief and rampant scepticism (which at times I find hard to do)! I love the mountain and Prue and can picture them both well in my mind's eyes. What is a large actor with sleepy eyes that could play him? I think he hides an incisive mind and great sense of humour behind that sleepy facade.
Jan130 wrote: "Jenny wrote: "My big problem with this book is that I just can't believe in the masquerade. I cannot build a picture in my mind of a slim, fit man wearing a low-cut C18th evening gown and looking l..."Never worry about not liking a title. I don't know if any title has a 100% love here. The ones that are 100% loathe are My Lord John & (for those unlucky enough to have read it) Helen.
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "Never worry about not liking a title. I don't know if any title has a 100% love here. The ones that are 100% loathe are My Lord John & (for those unlucky enough to have read it) Helen."Thank you Carol :). I've never read Helen, and have only the vaguest of memories of My Lord John. Sounds like I won't be searching either of them out LOL.
I saw a programme about the RSC at the Globe where they were doing a play traditionally (ie all the parts were played by men) once the chap was squeezed into the corset he had a cleavage! and with heavy make up he looked quite stunning!
Belinda wrote: "Okay I have a gripe - why weren't the Merriotts cross examined as to the people they were visiting in Barnet? Modern day evidence collection would demand proof of alibis."Because we're not talking "modern day" - we're talking mid 18th century. Modern police methods don't exist. Modern policemen don't exist. Even the Bow street runners have not yet been formed!
On the masquerade: I'm thinking the fashions and manners of the day lent themselves to the task. People in the ton often wore a great deal of makeup (this was true for both men and women). http://www.danceshistoricalmiscellany...
This is really interesting on gender differences in the 18th Century.
https://18centurybodies.wordpress.com...
In the 1760s the young British elite came back from their Grand Tour – a travel in Europe, mainly in Italy and France- with new and foreign stylish clothes. They dubbed themsleves the Macaronis and were characterized by their enormous wigs and their excessive use of make-up (Kirstin Olsen, 1999, 107). As we can see on figure 4 The Pantheon Macaroni is portrayed in front of his mirrored dressing table in which there are different pots of cosmetics, he is obviously powdered ans has two beauty patches. With such an “effiminate” representation of macaronis, one may wonder if they took part in the emergence of an early homosexual subculture. Yet, macaronis were not specifically linked with homosexual practices since it also existed tales of their agressive heterosexuality. Therefore they didn’t raise a sexual issue but rather a questioning on masculine identity (Rauser 2004, 107).
Re: the old gentleman. I can’t stand him and I feel very sorry for Robin and Prudence. The DSM’s criteria for narcissistic personality disorder lists the following traits and 5 of 9 are required for a diagnosis of NPD.Very high self-importance (boasting and expects to be seen as superior).
Often imagines being extremely successful, powerful, brilliant, beautiful or in love.
Believes they are special and unique. Thinks they should only be around other high-status people and institutions.
Needs to be admired often.
Thinks they should be treated better than other people or others should do what they want.
Exploits people.
Does not have empathy.
Is envious of other people or thinks they are envious of him/her.
Is arrogant.
I think he scores 9/9.
Pamela wrote: "Re: the old gentleman. I can’t stand him and I feel very sorry for Robin and Prudence. The DSM’s criteria for narcissistic personality disorder lists the following traits and 5 of 9 are required fo..."Ha! The one in my life scores 8/9 on that scale!
Hilary wrote: "I saw a programme about the RSC at the Globe where they were doing a play traditionally (ie all the parts were played by men) once the chap was squeezed into the corset he had a cleavage! and with ..." That's a good point! Here's an 'in depth' look at the corseting for a high style woman's dress in the 18th c.
Plus all the furblows would have nicely disguised the bust line
The massive petticoats and trains would disguise any man's lack of hips--when combined with tight corsetting and heavy makeup and the right carriage a good actor could carry it off.
Isn't there a line in the book that Robin's "sinewy arms" were the only flaw to his masquerade?
Those are beautiful pictures, Hana.I've mentioned on the spoiler thread (I think) that my son could pull off the chest thing (not too many 6ft 6in women though so that could be a sticking point! :D)
I guess gloves & an elaborate necklace could help with hairy muscly arms & Adam's apple respectively.
& I have known many, many men with higher pitched voices.
Pamela wrote: "Isn't there a line in the book that Robin's "sinewy arms" were the only flaw to his masquerade?"There is. That is always the sticking point for me, since the book doesn't mention him constantly wearing gloves.
I can believe that a slim young man, especially of no great height, could easily appear to be a woman. Especially with the fashions of that time.
Most of the women's gowns I'm coming across are 3/4 length sleeves. Plus Robin could have waxed any hair from his arms and legs. And remember that he's fair haired, which would have helped. Yes, Pamela, there is a line about his "sinewy arms"--but those lace cuff would have been a fine disguise! Still!! Clearly a flaw in a woman :)
As for Prue, her job would be quite easy as well. We know she's taller than Robin and takes after her mother. Young men of the period often had quite a feminine look and from the portraits it was quite admired. Prue could have played it down (no lipstick!!!) but it would almost have been expected of a youth who had spent much time abroad. I'll post some portraits.
Portrait of an Officer
I can quite imagine Prue looking like the young man @45.
A less handsome officer with lipstick and layers of clothes that could easily disguise a corseted bosom!
Hana wrote: "I can quite imagine Prue looking like the young man @45."Yes! Are those eyes grey? :D
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "Hana wrote: "I can quite imagine Prue looking like the young man @45."Yes! Are those eyes grey? :D"
Indeed they are! And I love the delicate hands on the sword hilt and the resolute look in his[?] eyes.
Lovely pictures everyone. thank you. The pics definitely make the masquerade more believable to me.
