Post 1945 Conflicts

[Jonny]

sorry to hear that 4T, I'm rather enjoying it so far but then that may be the benefit of distance, and of having a few of Mr Ham's books under my belt already. Very much enjoyed his look at how Australia got embroiled in this mess in the first place (who'd have thought the laid back Aussies had a "reds under the beds" scare?).

[zed]

Jonny wrote: "sorry to hear that 4T, I'm rather enjoying it so far but then that may be the benefit of distance, and of having a few of Mr Ham's books under my belt already. Very much enjoyed his look at how Australia got embroiled in this mess in the first place (who'd have thought the laid back Aussies had a "reds under the beds" scare?).."

I was born in 59 so the the Viet conflict was my older cousin coming to our house when I was 7 or 8 in his uniform and looking a million dollars to me. He was a nasho. I would have loved to have talked to him about all this but he passed away a good while back. FWIW he took me to my first ever gig as a 14 year old, Black Sabbath :-)

I get that the Vietnam was and still is a touchy subject still so I am trying to be very circumspect about my opinion of this book and hope others respect that.
I find the authors opinions breaking the chronological narrative of the actual events just not what I prefer in my history reading. As to the opinions I agree with some and not others.
Add to that I find some of the writing just hyperbolic. I just read some prose in the Draft Dodgers chapter that actually made me laugh out loud so over the top it was. I find the permanent criticism of just about everybody just a bit intrusive and maybe left for a final chapter that did not interfere with the narrative. With the opinions the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing I suppose but I find it all a bit woulda, coulda, shoulda. Also analogies are also just not my style, "herd of wild buffalo" as one example of a descriptor to describe an attack at one point. "Age of Aquarius" types to describe the youth of the time protesting the war. I even recall "Daft" being used. He quoted a digger who used the term "sheila" and that's fine but then actually uses it himself in a sentence or two later. I know that this is considered Australiana by many but it is in fact less so than many realise and is, in my opinion, a bit cringe worthy. I am bit worried about a couple of footnotes as well. For example for one he uses Hansard without a date for a quote to make a point but later uses Hansard again with a date. I am yet to look them up but will after I have finished as my curiosity is piqued as to why.

I am genuinely pissed off at myself for not enjoying this book because I paid $55 brand new for this book back in 2010 such was the rave but it is just not my style of presentation. The cliche about "really wanted to enjoy this book but........" is ringing true for me unfortunately.

[zed]

One page 301 of my copy Paul Ham writes about the US troops going to Australia for R&R and writes that the

"State Department assured a Joint Chiefs of Staff inquiry that 'American Negro Personnel would not encounter formal discrimination' (black American soldiers had been refused entry to Australia during World War II).

I am not sure that that is correct.

https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/data...

[Liz V.]

4T, the link does not work.

[zed]

https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/data...

[zed]

Liz V. wrote: "4T, the link does not work."

It does for me Liz. It is a PDF link though.

[Liz V.]

I still get "page not found", but thanks 4T.

[Jonny]

I turned up this story from early in Australia's involvement in Vietnam, which I thought was particularly... Aussie:

"Skardon’s first operation—to clear a hamlet of enemy forces—got off to a farcical start. It was the local soldiers’ first ride in a chopper, and they laughed and waved to their friends and families, hundreds of whom came to see them off: ‘…the excitement of a helicopter ride clearly outweighed any thoughts that they were about to land in a hostile environment,’ Skardon observed.35 No sooner had they landed than confused reports were received of Viet Cong troops inside the hamlet. Before Skardon could confirm the reports, his Vietnamese irregulars started shooting. Excitably, they shot an enormous number of rounds at an unseen target. The Australians raced down the lines, tearing the weapons from the soldiers to stop the inferno, at which point nine shaking enemy soldiers stood up in the targeted area and surrendered. ‘The volume of fire, though not directed at [the Viet Cong], obviously had the desired effect!’ Skardon concluded."

Mention is also made off WO Kevin Wheatley, who earned a posthumous VC in the same period; he's quite a bloke:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin...

Vietnam: The Australian War

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Great story Jonny and thanks for the link on WO Kevin Wheatley, he was a very brave soldier.

[Doubledf99.99]

How many Victoria Crosses were awarded to Aussie troops during the Viet Nam War?????

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Doubledf99.99 wrote: "How many Victoria Crosses were awarded to Aussie troops during the Viet Nam War?????"

Four in total:

http://vvaavic.org.au/victoria-cross-...

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Doubledf99.99 wrote: "How many Victoria Crosses were awarded to Aussie troops during the Viet Nam War?????"

Four in total:

http://vvaavic.org.au/victoria-cross-..."

Four amazing, brave soldiers.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Thanks Mike, they were pretty brave and decent blokes.

[Doubledf99.99]

Four amazing brave soldiers indeed.

Thanks for the link Rick.

[Jonny]

Just read the three chapters in Ham's book on the Battle of Long Tan: certainly sounds like out was 'one of those days': I suspect that there's been a certain degree of self-censorship in this quote:

"Thinking his men had moments to live, Buick radioed a jaw-dropping instruction to Stanley: Buick called in artillery on himself. Stanley asked Buick to confirm the grid reference. Buick repeated the instruction; Stanley refused to execute it: ‘I was not prepared to adjust the fire onto his position. Certainly he insisted, strongly.’ Instead, Stanley ‘walked’ in the bombardment from 100 metres to about 50 metres."

And this is Ham's description of the aftermath of the battle; there's one compliment from a whinging Pom:

"The Australian dead lay where they fell, unmolested by the enemy, undisturbed by artillery. Most had their rifles by them, or in their hands. ‘They died firing,’ said Bryan Wickens. ‘It was the bravest thing I’d ever seen and I’d been in seven theatres of war.’ A professional, ex-British Army soldier, Wickens had earlier dismissed the conscripts as ‘not ready for it’. After Long Tan, ‘I found them to be the bravest soldiers’. The experience, he said, later compelled him to ‘change my nationality to Australian’.
The unbroken hiss of radio static could be heard. Vic Grice, an Australian radio operator, had died sitting up, with the ‘squelch’ of his radio off, like a cardiograph flat-lining. He appeared to be smiling. Here was Lieutenant Sharp, the reluctant soldier, lying on his side, with one hand outstretched, reaching for an AK47; his shattered Armalite lay 6 metres away. And shortly they found two miracles: Barry Meller, wounded in the mouth and leg, propped against a rubber tree, was waving. ‘What took you so long?’ he said; and there lay Jim Richmond, face down in the mud, shot twice in the chest, yet alive. Richmond later described ‘hoping that the artillery wouldn’t get me…I was worried about my mother, and I kept thinking, if I died she would be up shit creek, so I prayed a lot and made a lot of promises, but I’m afraid I never really kept any of them…It was the longest night I’ve ever known.’"

Although certainly the 'Australian mercenaries' had a secret weapon to help them to victory:

"In hailing Australia’s ‘biggest battle’, America’s NBC network reported the novel discovery that these odd ‘diggers’ fought with cans of beer in their packs. ‘Beer is part of the rations they carry in battle,’ stated Dean Brelis, presenter of The Today Show, who added: ‘In battle, the Aussies don’t wear steel helmets because they make too much noise…They are a brave, loyal people. The United States is lucky to have them on our side. We don’t have many friends in Vietnam.’ Regrettably, he failed to mention whether the Australians won the Battle of Long Tan with Vic Bitter or XXXX."

Now I need to find myself the movie Danger Close...

Vietnam: The Australian War

[Manray9]

Jonny wrote: "Just read the three chapters in Ham's book on the Battle of Long Tan: certainly sounds like out was 'one of those days': I suspect that there's been a certain degree of self-censorship in this quot..."

I watched it last night.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Jonny wrote: "Just read the three chapters in Ham's book on the Battle of Long Tan: certainly sounds like out was 'one of those days': I suspect that there's been a certain degree of self-censorship in this quot..."

Great post Jonny, glad to hear you are enjoying Paul Ham's book. If your interested this is an excellent documentary on the battle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gUSq...

[Doubledf99.99]

Jonny wrote: "Just read the three chapters in Ham's book on the Battle of Long Tan: certainly sounds like out was 'one of those days': I suspect that there's been a certain degree of self-censorship in this quot..."

When I was at Schofield Bks (25th Inf Div) in the 80's a Australian Inf unit came up for some training for a few months, we went out to their bivouac site/tent city to meet our counterparts, and I'll never forget seeing pallets and pallets of their own brand of Australian beer.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Funny enough my unit went to Hawaii in 1982 to train with the 25th Inf. Division and I recall having a BBQ which we had our own beer, I just can't remember the month I was there.

[Doubledf99.99]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Funny enough my unit went to Hawaii in 1982 to train with the 25th Inf. Division and I recall having a BBQ which we had our own beer, I just can't remember the month I was there."

I was there in 82, that's probably the one I'm thinking of, every month is summer in Hawaii, though i keep thinking it was in the summer.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I think it was called "Exercise Pacific Bond". I had a great time in Hawaii and working with you Yanks :) At the time I was in our Infantry Battalion (5/7 Royal Australian Regiment) Mortar Platoon using 81mm mortars but we had some training and a live shoot with your 4.2-inch chemical mortars.

[Doubledf99.99]

We might have crossed paths, i was of the FSE fire support type, though i spent most of the time at the OP.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Doubledf99.99 wrote: "We might have crossed paths, i was of the FSE fire support type, though i spent most of the time at the OP."

We might have indeed crossed paths, I was the drunk Aussie at the BBQ 😂😂😂

[zed]

"Regrettably, he failed to mention whether the Australians won the Battle of Long Tan with Vic Bitter or XXXX"

It interesting how we view written history in term of either an academic approach or popular. I find narrative like this just not my style. In fact I find it embarrassing. It may say more about me I suppose but if there was a passage in a similar book on the UK or the US and say some attempt at jocularity concerning Newcastle Brown Ale or Coors I would be wondering the point.

[Doubledf99.99]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Doubledf99.99 wrote: "We might have crossed paths, i was of the FSE fire support type, though i spent most of the time at the OP."

We might have indeed crossed paths, I was the drunk Aussie at the..."

I keep thinking it was XXXX your group was drinking.

[Colin]

XXXX = beer

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Colin wrote: "XXXX = beer"

Not the best Australian beer either :)

[Colin]

Agreed

[Jonny]

Tasked with clearing the shelves (a bit) during my enforced and lengthy holiday, I've made a start on

Hamburger Hill: The Brutal Battle for Dong Ap Bia: May 11-20, 1969

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Jonny wrote: "Tasked with clearing the shelves (a bit) during my enforced and lengthy holiday, I've made a start on

[book:Ha..."

Not a bad book Jonny, I hope you enjoy it.

[Colin]

One of my senior NCOs was on Hamburger Hill, interesting people I served with back in the day. I did 3 years Army, served in the 502nd 101st Airborne, knew a lot of Vietnam vets. After I got out, a buddy of mine convinced me to join the marines, and I then served with a bunch of Vietnam vets. I still work for my old Colonel, now Maj Gen Livingston, Ret, Medal of Honor.

[James]

Now starting on HUE 1968 by Mark Bowden. It's been on my TBR list for a while now and with my current COVID-19 vacation from work, I figured it was now time to dive into it. I really enjoyed Bowden's BLACK HAWK DOWN as well, although it's been over 15 years since I first read it.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

James wrote: "Now starting on HUE 1968 by Mark Bowden. It's been on my TBR list for a while now and with my current COVID-19 vacation from work, I figured it was now time to dive into it. I really enjoyed Bowden..."

Hi James, I hope you enjoy "Hue 1968" as much as I did. I really loved Mark Bowden's book; "Black Hawk Down" as well.

Huế 1968: A Turning Point of the American War in Vietnam by Mark Bowden

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Colin wrote: "One of my senior NCOs was on Hamburger Hill, interesting people I served with back in the day. I did 3 years Army, served in the 502nd 101st Airborne, knew a lot of Vietnam vets. After I got out, a..."

I had similar sort of experience when I joined the Australian army, lost of the NCO's were Vietnam vets, some of them were a bit scary at times :)

[Doubledf99.99]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Colin wrote: "One of my senior NCOs was on Hamburger Hill, interesting people I served with back in the day. I did 3 years Army, served in the 502nd 101st Airborne, knew a lot of Vietnam vets. Afte..."

Same here as well, I signed up in 73', first unit was probably 70% draftee's waiting to ETS and the rest of us RA, all of the senior NCO were vet's, Fridays we always had a dress green inspection, and if you didn't receive any gigs your were off for a quasi long weekend starting at noon Friday, every unit I was in during the 70's 80's usually had a Silver Star recipient.

[Marilyn]

Duh... What is ETS and RA? Sorry, but I’m not military nor are any of my family (except for my WWII uncle).

[Doubledf99.99]

RA Regular Army
ETS expiration term of service.

[Jonny]

Wrapped up on Hamburger Hill: The Brutal Battle for Dong Ap Bia: May 11-20, 1969;a nice thorough overview. There are a few observations here:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Nice review Jonny, good to hear you enjoyed the book. I just remembered that I read this first-hand account of the battle which I really enjoyed. It might be worth while checking out:

The Crouching Beast: A United States Army Lieutenant's Account of the Battle for Hamburger Hill, May 1969 by Frank Boccia

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Randy wrote: "Been a little bit inactive lately. Currently reading Dead men risen by Toby Harnden. At the moment halfway trough, read dozens books about the war in Afghanistan. But this is one of the most intere..."

That's a very good book Randy, I hope you enjoy it.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Randy wrote: "Been a little bit inactive lately. Currently reading Dead men risen by Toby Harnden. At the moment halfway trough, read dozens books about the war in Afghanistan. But this is one of the most intere..."

Good to hear, I have that one on the shelf, unread.

[Liam]

By the way, I saw someone had mentioned Barry Petersen a while back, and although it's been more than 15 years since I read it, I remember that I thought his memoir was quite good...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Liam wrote: "By the way, I saw someone had mentioned Barry Petersen a while back, and although it's been more than 15 years since I read it, I remember that I thought his memoir was quite good...
[bookcover:Tig..."

Glad you mentioned that book Liam, I read it way back in 1989 and I also thought it was pretty good.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Here is one helluva Korean dogfight by a US Navy pilot that remained unknown for 50 years. Now recommended for MoH:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2...

[Marc]

Mike wrote: "Here is one helluva Korean dogfight by a US Navy pilot that remained unknown for 50 years. Now recommended for MoH:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2...-..."

Sounds like he downed five Migs, so that would make him only the second US Navy ace of the conflict, along with Guy Bordelon (who was also the only piston-engined ace of the conflict).

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Great story Mike, thanks for posting that link.

[Arthur]

I suppose it worth adding that Polish partisans who were initially formed to fight against the Nazis during the 1940's, continued fighting well into the 1950's to try to free Poland from Soviet oppression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursed_...

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Here is a new documentary I will have to see. I'm sure many here will remember this event, Desert One

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_co...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I do indeed Mike! I will keep an eye out for the doco as well.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I've moved this post by 'Austin' to this thread:

So I found this timeline Trotsky Timeline and I think it would be interesting to see what happens after WW2 when the soviets are defeated by the allies. Basically you would look at modern day history and everywhere you see communism, replace it with fascism.

I do think Germany would rebuild fast and quickly become the main power of Europe. With fascism returning and the N taking power again. Then making their block in Europe. Basically becoming the soviet union of our world. Making the cold war between liberalism and fascism. I do see Liberalism winning and fascism collapsing. But the Ghost of fascism left over in the world. Much like the ghost of communism today with North Korea and Cuba.

But in that world, it would be fascism. I would think fascism would even invade the US politics. In much the same way in the USA today it is a struggle between communism and liberalism. I think in that timeline it would be a struggle between Liberalism and fascism, where the US is only ever a few elections away from Fascism or civil war. Or perhaps I am Wrong and the US remains immune to Fascism. I would love to discuss it.

I would actually be interested in discussing events of this proposed cold war if anyone would like to humor me. As I kinda want to run a Dnd game off this exact scenario.

Sorry if I didn't go about the right way of making this. I just didn't want to muck up any existing thread.