Post 1945 Conflicts

[Jonny]

Thanks very much for that Colin, plenty of further reading to plan methinks.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I will have to try and read my copy of Max Hastings book on Vietnam pretty soon I think. Thanks Jonny and Colin for taking the time to post your comments, very interesting details supplied by both.

[Jonny]

Having read of the last big nuclear scare of the Cold War in the singer (1983: The World at the Brink) I thought I'd better revisit the first major confrontation with
One Minute To Midnight: Kennedy, Khrushchev and Castro on the Brink of Nuclear War

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I hope you enjoy the book Jonny, keep us posted.

[Liam]

Speaking of books about Viet Nam to read soon, how many group members have a copy of Max Boot's The Road Not Taken: Edward Lansdale and the American Tragedy in Vietnam as yet unread? If everyone interested has gotten hold of a copy (or can borrow it from a library), we should perhaps start thinking about when to schedule a "buddy read" or whatever.

Rick, I don't know whether you would like to handle this in the normal schedule of theme reads or as a special case, but despite the fact that the end of WWII comes quite early in this narrative for obvious reasons, one could make the argument that both the Huk rebellion and associated unrest in the Philippines, and also the wars in Indo-China, were essentially a continuation of military & political processes which were well advanced even before the war ended, and which moreover had a demonstrable causal relationship with wartime policy decisions taken by belligerents on both sides. The same analysis can be applied to the Dutch East Indies and Malaya during the same time-frame. Given that direct causal relationship, and the fact that the entire series of events in South-East Asia immediately after the war and for several years afterwards has had such an enormous effect on the foreign policies of the U.K., U.S. and Australia (not to mention all the other nations concerned), perhaps we could have a theme read during one of the next few months on the topic of the immediate aftermath of the Second World War and its effect on S.E.A. or the Asia/Pacific region generally?

I realise that several of us have already read many of them, but for those who may prefer to look at options other than Boot's book, I can think of several excellent books on that topic with a wider focus which have been published relatively recently- C.A. Bayly's Forgotten Wars: Freedom and Revolution in Southeast Asia and Ronald H. Spector's In The Ruins Of Empire: The Japanese Surrender And The Battle For Postwar Asia, for example...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I am happy to set up a thread/page for a buddy read of "The Road not Taken". If people want let me know who wants to join in and when it suits everyone, post the details here:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Jonny]

Turned up this interesting story on SAC dispersal in the early days of the Missile Crisis:
" Together with the rest of SAC, the 509th now had the mission of obliterating dozens of military and industrial targets in Russia in the event of nuclear war. It's primary weapon was the venerable swept-wing B-47 Stratojet, an atomic-age workhorse that could be refuelled in flight over the Mediterranean. Armed with two nuclear warheads, a single B-47 could deliver hundreds of times the destructive punch of the bombs that fell on Japan.
It was just a short twenty - minute hop from Pease to Logan Airport in Boston. The bombers had to be defueled before takeoff, as it was unsafe to land with a full tank of gas. Like many of his fellow pilots, Captain Ruger Winchester had never landed a B-47 at a busy civilian airport before and was initially confused by the bright lights of the city. It was difficult to pick out the runway, so he made a visual pass the first time around, and had radar guide him in on the second approach.
Ground Control led the B-47s to an unused taxiway on a distant part of the field. The pilots, nuclear release documents hanging from their necks and .38 revolvers strapped to their belts, were taken to an Air National Guard office that would serve as their quarters. In the meantime, a convoy of service vehicles was driving down from Pease with maintenance crews and military police to guard the nukes.
Logan was totally unprepared for Operation Red Eagle, and the hugely complicated logistics of hosting a strategic bomber force. Refuelling the planes dragged out for fifteen hours because of incompatible equipment. An Air Force lieutenant colonel had to use his personal credit card to purchase fuel for the B-47s from the local Mobil station; other officers scoured local grocery stores for food. Cots and bedding did not show up until 2:00am. Only one outside telephone line was available in the alert facility. Security for the nuclear weapons on board the cocked planes was inadequate. There was even a shortage of vans to transport the alert crews to their planes if the klaxons went off. Eventually, logistics officers hired the necessary vehicles from Hertz and Avis.
The 509th would have difficulty living up to its motto - Defensor - Vindex (Defender - Avenger) - had the Soviets attacked that first night. When the pilots inspected their planes the following morning, the wheels of the heavy six-engine bombers had carved deep ruts in the unstressed tarmac. Towtrucks were needed to pull the planes out."

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

That's a great account Jonny, thanks for posting the details!

[Manray9]

The U.S.P.S. delivered from the U.K. a nice new copy of --

Partition: The story of Indian independence and the creation of Pakistan in 1947 by Barney White-Spunner.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Nice addition to your library MR9! Sad to say I am yet to read my copy.

[Liam]

Nice, Manray9, that looks really interesting!
I just came across an amusing story the other day that has to do with the partition of India: Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw (C-in-C of the Indian Army during the 1971 Indo-Pak War) had served with the President of Pakistan, General Yahya Khan, in the British Indian Army at the time of partition in 1947. Apparently, Yahya Khan had arranged to purchase a motorcycle from Manekshaw, and when he left to join the new Pakistan Army he promised to send the remaining balance owed, 1000 Rupees, after he settled in at his new post. Manekshaw never received the agreed payment from Yahya Khan, and at the conclusion of the war in 1971 he stated "Yahya never paid me the Rs. 1000 for my motorbike, but now he has paid with half his country!"

[Manray9]

Liam wrote: "Nice, Manray9, that looks really interesting!
I just came across an amusing story the other day that has to do with the partition of India: Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw (C-in-C of the Indian Army d..."

War goes personal.

[Manray9]

Today I received a new paperback copy of --

A Force So Swift: Mao, Truman, and the Birth of Modern China, 1949 by Kevin Peraino.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Manray9 wrote: "Today I received a new paperback copy of --

[book:A Force So Swift: Mao, Truman, and the Birth of Modern Chi..."

Sounds like something different MR9. I hope its an enjoyable and interesting account.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

A very interesting chapter in history MR9, hope to hear it is a good account.

[Marc]

Decided to tackle some of the larger books in my TBR pile this year. First one up:

Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975

[Jonny]

Marc wrote: "Decided to tackle some of the larger books in my TBR pile this year. First one up:

Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975"

Don't think you'll be disappointed Marc. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Marc wrote: "Decided to tackle some of the larger books in my TBR pile this year. First one up:

Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975"

I hope to get around to my copy sometime soon, I hope you enjoy it Marc.

[Colin]

Many Vietnam vets are rallying to attack the merits, voracity and accuracy of several parts of the book. I am aware of a few of the points first hand. May not be pretty. Many of these vets who were Marines have contacted me on this, having read or in some cases assisted with my book Noble Warrior. Some of the parts related to my previous research were just incredibly inaccurate, and a few slanderous statements that he relied upon, without fact checking and offering rebuttal statements may come back to haunt Hastings. All he had to do was read my book, and a couple of others, and this would have been averted. The vets words, not mine. Shame.

[Dimitri]

Colin wrote: "Many Vietnam vets are rallying to attack the merits, voracity and accuracy of several parts of the book. I am aware of a few of the points first hand. May not be pretty. Many of these vets who were..."

will you publish a point by point online article about these inaccuracies/cross-references somewhere ?

[Colin]

Forthcoming in the near future

[Marc]

Okay, just finished this one:

Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975

Haven't gotten a review up yet, but damn, this was a good book! Definitely on par with his books on the end of WWII in both the Pacific and Europe.

[Jonny]

Pleased you liked it Marc, thought it was an excellent single volume treatment.

[Marc]

Jonny wrote: "Pleased you liked it Marc, thought it was an excellent single volume treatment."

Indeed. Not the most detailed if one is looking for a history of all the battles and such, but a really excellent weaving together of the experiences of soldiers, civilians and politicians on all sides. I definitely recommend this to anyone looking for a broad overview of the conflict.

[Jonny]

Exactly, bags of room for further reading there Marc

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

A MoH Vietnam helicopter pilot went "west" last week, what an incredible rescue he mounted:

https://patriotpost.us/articles/60819...

[Jonny]

Mike wrote: "A MoH Vietnam helicopter pilot went "west" last week, what an incredible rescue he mounted:

https://patriotpost.us/articles/60819......"

That is some dedication Mike, and am awesome result.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Great story of a great American hero, thanks for posting the link Mike.

[Colin]

Kettles was friends with my former CO and current boss/coauthor Maj Gen Livingston, also a MOH recipient. I met Kettles once, very humble guy, and he and Bruce Crandall (also pilot/MOH) were always seen together.

[happy]

I'm currently reading Hampton Sides's look at the Chosin Reservoir


I'm about 100 pages in (the 1st MarDiv) is just starting it's advance to the Reservoir

Sides slams X Corps CG Ned Almond more that usual - he hasn't had a good thing to say about him!

Marine MG O.P Smith comes across as a saint.

[happy]

I finished "On Desperate Ground"

Well written, but not a whole lot new. In the first half of the narrative his depiction of Gen Almond (X Corps CG) if anything is worse that what is generally accepted. However, he says that during the retreat he couldn't have been more supportive of MG Smith and the Marines.

I'll type up more complete thoughts in the near future (I waaaaaay behind on typing up my thought:))

[happy]

I'm slowing getting caught up on typing up my thoughts.

For anyone interested, my thoughts on Hampton Sides look at the iconic battle of the Korean War



https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Jonny]

happy wrote: "I'm slowing getting caught up on typing up my thoughts.

For anyone interested, my thoughts on Hampton Sides look at the iconic battle of the Korean War

[bookcover:On Desperate Grou..."

Nice review Happy; it's good to see the Drysdale lads get a mention too.

[Liz V.]

Just read a nice review of Radio Underground by Alison Littman, which is historical fiction but evidently based on letters from the 1956 Hungarian crushing.

[Jonny]

Nice description of Westmoreland's tunnel vision from Mark Bowden:
"What became increasingly clear, however, was that Westy’s counts were bogus. He believed them—he was not the first general to welcome statistics he wanted to hear—but the numbers emerged from an intricate origami of war bureaucracy: South Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, and American. The truth was bent at every fold for reasons that went beyond propaganda to self-interest, sycophancy, and wishful thinking. In Hanoi there was no pretense of truth whatsoever; “facts” were what served the party’s mission. American commanders, on the other hand, supposedly embraced a more enlightened standard. Accurate information was essential to war planning, and, unlike Hanoi, the United States was dogged at every turn by an independent press. But, in practice, there was every incentive for field commanders to inflate or even invent body counts. It was how their performance was assessed, and it became one of the greatest self-reporting scams in history. Everyone knew it was going on. Some of the more senior commanders discouraged the practice, but it was so widespread—and so hard to disprove—that few if any field officers were ever disciplined for it."
Not as caustic as Hastings (yet) or as universally critical (Mighty Max puts the boot into the journo's as well as everyone else, at almost every opportunity) but I'm still enjoying what I'm picking up.
Huế 1968: A Turning Point of the American War in Vietnam

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Glad you are enjoying the book Jonny, I reckon it was a pretty good account of the battle for Hue.

[Colin]

I interviewed Westmoreland when we both lived in Charleston, SC before he went into the care facility. Interesting guy, and he did have opinions.

[Jonny]

The thing that bugs me most about Vietnam is that my hindbrain keeps trying to drag in comparisons with the Commonwealth experience in Malaya and "how things could have been"... there was a fairly successful relation programme in Malaya that got folks out of the way of the Communist guerrillas, but in Vietnam:
"The initial Strategic Hamlet Program, known as pacification, had wasted years and countless millions herding people from their ancestral homes into “protected areas.” The hamlets were more like medium- security prisons than villages, surrounded by a moat and fencing, with a command post at the gates, patrolled by a self- defense militia. The idea had been to isolate the population from the Viet Cong, although in most instances they were one and the same. Anyone who understood Vietnam would have known the policy was self- defeating. It was an insult. Ancestors anchored most Vietnamese to a place. Families built elaborate shrines in their homes to beloved kin, departed fathers and mothers, grandparents, aunts and uncles. In a society like this, home and community were not just an accident of geography— as they frequently were in America— but an obligation and an identity. So it is little wonder that the forced relocations were despised, and enemy infiltration was rife in the “pacified” hamlets. Forcibly relocating people was the opposite of personal freedom. More than anything else the policy resembled the disastrous social engineering practices of Stalin and Mao. Task Force Oregon, the operation described by Schell, had devolved into a savage parody of the concept, leaving villagers to choose between being attacked in their own homes or escaping to what UPI correspondent Neil Sheehan would call “the certainty of hunger and filth and disease in the refugee camps.”"
Unfair to make comparisons as ground and political conditions were totally different, but you just can't help...
Huế 1968: A Turning Point of the American War in Vietnam

[Dimitri]

God bless your hindbrain! A Malaya comparison can only be useful while reading about 'Nam.

[Jonny]

Dimitri wrote: "God bless your hindbrain! A Malaya comparison can only be useful while reading about 'Nam."

That may well be true... here's some wishful thinking from the North Vietnamese leadership....
"The new uniforms were meant to impress. City dwellers in the South had been fed lies about the VC and the NVA for years. They were portrayed as uncivilized, even animal- like. So the Front was going to do more than liberate Hue; it was also going to dazzle it. They were given lessons in polite behavior, memorizing twelve rules of conduct. They were to take nothing, to help tidy the streets, to repair broken utilities like sewers or wiring, in other words, to make themselves useful. They would present themselves to Hue as a clean and disciplined professional army. This was to be the last battle, and they were going to win it. They wanted to look and behave like winners. Many of these young soldiers had never owned a suit of clothes as fine as the ones they now wore. It filled them with pride and a sense of importance."
Huế 1968: A Turning Point of the American War in Vietnam

[Lee]

Might check into this for a comparison to US efforts in the Philippines, in addition to the Malaya comparison.

On the other hand, I think I recall reading that ethnic reasons made the Malayan Emergency a much easier job for the British than Vietnam was for the French & Americans.

[Dimitri]

In a part of 'Nam far far away from Dien Pen Phu...

In the Year of the Tiger: The War for Cochinchina, 1945–1951byWilliam M. Waddell

http://www.miwsr.com/2019-027.aspx

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Dimitri wrote: "In a part of 'Nam far far away from Dien Pen Phu...

[book:In the Year of the Tiger: The War for Cochinchina, 1945–1..."

Thanks for the link that review Dimitri. I had this book on my wish list but I wanted to see a few reviews and commentaries before I committed to a purchase.

[Jonny]

Might be one for the Wish List there. In the meantime, I finished Mark Bowden's
Huế 1968: A Turning Point of the American War in Vietnam
last night; thoughts and opinions here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Dimitri wrote: "In a part of 'Nam far far away from Dien Pen Phu...

[book:In the Year of the Tiger: The War for Coc..."

Me too.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Jonny wrote: "Might be one for the Wish List there. In the meantime, I finished Mark Bowden's
[book:Huế 1968: A Turning Point of the ..."

Glad you enjoyed the book as much as I did Jonny and nice review!

[Colin]

I have not read Hue yet, does he mention Myron Harrington. Myron is a great friend, Navy Cross at Hue.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Hi Colin, the author mentions Harrington, Myron: 430–436, 440, 441, 466, 470, 487.

Here is the index:
https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/f44720...

Link to the author's online page;
https://www.hue1968.com/

[Colin]

Thanks. I had some limited contact with Bowden in the late 90's when he was writing the weekly report for the Philadelphia Inquirer on Mogadishu. That 24 week article would become Black Hawk Down, and I knew a few of the men killed.

[Liam]

I haven't read 'Huế 1968' yet either, though I got a copy for Christmas. Jonny, you might find Make For The Hills: Memories of Far Eastern Wars interesting r.e. comparisons between Viet Nam and Malaya; it's a bitch to get a hard copy, but I believe there are e-books available now. The same is true for his classic Defeating Communist Insurgency: Experiences from Malaya and Vietnam. Sir Robert's other books are well worth reading also if you have not already done so, as is Richard Clutterbuck's The Long Long War: Counterinsurgency In Malaya And Vietnam...