THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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Post 1945 Conflicts
You may be right Manray, Frederick Kempe in 
Berlin 1961: Kennedy, Khruschev, and the Most Dangerous Place on Earth suggests that Kennedy's tough stance from '62 onwards is a result of Khrushchev stamping over him with both boots at Vienna (post Bay of Pigs) and over Berlin later in the year. Kempe also suggests that Eisenhower was pretty much ineffectual in terms of foreign policy (and I'm coming round to the opinion that he screwed any chance for a peaceful resolution to the conflict in Vietnam).
Jonny wrote: "You may be right Manray, Frederick Kempe in [book:Berlin 1961: Kennedy, Khruschev, and the Most Dangerou..."Ike just wanted to be left alone to play golf. ;-)
The second wave of historiography on the Stalin Note of 1952 seems to have been concluded with this book from 2002:The Balance of Empires: United States’ Rejection of German Reunification and Stalin’s March Note of 1952.
byJohn Walko
Dimitri wrote: "The second wave of historiography on the Stalin Note of 1952 seems to have been concluded with this book from 2002:The Balance of Empires: United States’ Rejection of German Reunification and Stal..."
Gee, all that time I spent up on the IGB could have been avoided?
Chin Joo wrote: "Thank you all very much for your recommendations. I can always count on this group. :)The Vietnam War ended when I was a kid, and because the adults talked about it, I knew about it since then. T..."
I've done a lot of studying WWI&WWII~ one war seems to meld into the next war~~ I feel/think that The Korean and Vietnam wars were unfinished business with the USSR now Russia.
I know it's a novel but it's a gooooood one. Started on Jean Larteguy's The Praetorians.The Praetorians
Jean Lartéguy
Doubledf99.99 wrote: "I know it's a novel but it's a gooooood one. Started on Jean Larteguy's The Praetorians.The Praetorians
Jean Lartéguy"
I just minutes ago ordered a copy of his The Centurions.
Manray9 wrote: "Doubledf99.99 wrote: "I know it's a novel but it's a gooooood one. Started on Jean Larteguy's The Praetorians.The Praetorians
[author:Jean Lar..."
The Centurions is very good on the French in Indo China, and some of the main characters captivity and what comes after. Hell of a read.
Looks like an interesting book and a great story:
A Tiger among Us: A Story of Valor in Vietnam's A Shau Valleyhttps://www.military.com/daily-news/2...
Doubledf99.99 wrote: "I know it's a novel but it's a gooooood one. Started on Jean Larteguy's The Praetorians.The Praetorians
Jean Lartéguy"
Read this years ago. Excellent.
Jean Lartéguy has been one of my favourite writers since childhood, and he is one of only a tiny handful of novelists whose work I go back to again and again. It always makes me happy to see others reading his work, and I hope you enjoy these books as much as I did! Both The Centurions & The Praetorians are absolutely great- truly classic novels and well worth reading. The Bronze Drums is also quite good, though not in the same class. Presumed Dead is worthwhile as well, particularly if you have already read and enjoyed one or more of Lartéguy's other books. As for me, however, my favourite of Lartéguy's novels has always been Yellow Fever, and not entirely due to the fact that it was the first one I read or because it has the most beautiful cover art. In a way, the book functions as an infectious agent for the titular malady; if one is not careful reading it, the result might actually be a mild case of "Le Mal Jaune". Lartéguy paints such a vivid picture of Hanoi & Saigon in the early 1950s, in such gorgeous language, that the book is intensely pleasurable to read in a way that only the very greatest works in the worldwide canon of literature ever are. The effect it had on me as a young boy in 1982 was damned near hallucinatory; when I realised shortly thereafter that the book was actually not fiction in the true sense of the word, but rather real people and factual events with a fairly thin veneer of fictional camouflage, that knowledge (figuratively) cracked my head wide open. Obviously, I recommend this one most highly of all- if you have the chance to get a copy, you should do so. Trust me, you won't regret it...As far as M. Lartéguy's non-fiction books are concerned, most of them (including, sadly, his reportage on the later stages of the wars in Indo-China) have never been translated into English. Of those that were, The Walls Of Israel is now quite dated, and The Guerrillas even more so. The one to look for is his memoir, The Face Of War: Reflections On Men And Combat, which is every bit as extraordinarily good as the best of his fictional works.
For those who may be interested, there was a movie made some years ago based on The Centurions, called 'Lost Command', which starred Anthony Quinn, Alain Delon and Claudia Cardinale. It is apparently still available on dvd, so here is a link to the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoFoy...
and a link to the dvd's listing on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Command-C...
Today I received from World of Books a nice used hardback of --
A Face Like A Chicken's Backside: An Unconventional Soldier in South East Asia, 1948-1971 by J. P. CrossCross served as a British officer of Gurkhas from Burma in '44 & '45, through the Malayan Emergency in the fifties and the Borneo and Sarawak campaigns in the sixties. He was the last Commandant of the British Army's Jungle Warfare School and trained American and South Vietnamese troops in the sixties, before serving as Defense Attaché in Laos. He's still kicking at 94 and lives in Nepal.
Manray9 wrote: "Today I received from World of Books a nice used hardback of -- [book:A Face Like A Ch..."Interesting title...
If I remember correctly, the story behind the title was that a tribesman from the north-central Malay peninsula saw Cross with a few days' growth on his face while on a scouting mission during the Malayan Emergency, and due to Cross's prematurely white stubble came up with that description...In any case, all Colonel Cross's books are worth reading, and this one is one of the best. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did, Manray9!
Liam wrote: "If I remember correctly, the story behind the title was that a tribesman from the north-central Malay peninsula saw Cross with a few days' growth on his face while on a scouting mission during the ..."Liam: The dj quotes a Malayan tribesman saying: "John Cross is a good man, although he has a face like a chicken's backside."
Yeah, I just had to trust my rapidly aging memory, as nearly all my books are still boxed & stacked throughout my house. At this point I'm about five years behind schedule on fixing up my library (i.e. painting, restoring the floor and building the bookcases)- not to mention the rest of my house. Oh well, I always figured I'd have plenty of work to do on the place until my last breath; that was actually one of the reasons I wanted this house. It is becoming increasingly annoying to not have access to most of my books, though...
On a brain-picking lark, does anyone know a good book on the South African Recces, or those African border wars of the 1970s-1990s they participated in ?
Dimitri, anything by Al J. Venter might be worthwhile; I don't know whether he dedicated an entire book to any particular unit(s) though. For any and all African conflicts between roughly 1965 and the present, Mr. Venter is the recognised authority.
You could check this book out Dimitri:
Recce: A Collector's Guide To The History Of The South African Special Forces by Paul Matthysen
Liam wrote: "Dimitri, anything by Al J. Venter might be worthwhile; I don't know whether he dedicated an entire book to any particular unit(s) though. For any and all African conflicts between r..."Dimitri: I know of --
Portugal's Guerrilla Wars in Africa: Lisbon's Three Wars in Angola, Mozambique and Portuguese Guinea 1961-74 by A. J. Venter (mentioned by Liam above).
Battleground Africa: Cold War in the Congo, 1960-1965 by Lise Namikas.
The Last Hot Battle of the Cold War: South Africa vs. Cuba in the Angolan Civil War by Peter Polack.
Dingo Firestorm: The Greatest Battle of the Rhodesian Bush War by Ian Pringle.
Thanks all for the trademark avalanche of interesting titles !
Dimitri wrote: "On a brain-picking lark, does anyone know a good book on the South African Recces, or those African border wars of the 1970s-1990s they participated in ?"Dimitri, here's a few more:
by Koos Stadler
by Peter Stiff
Dragged out
1983: The World at the Brinkfor a wander down nostalgia road (for the record, I was 11). There's a great documentary on this, not surprisingly on YouTube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4cnrE6O...
I'm reading Hampton Sides' latest book; "On Desperate Ground" which covers the Chosin Reservoir campaign of the Korean War. Seems the South Koreans learnt a few nasty tricks from the communists or the Japanese of WW2:
"Significant swaths of the beach, X Corps also discovered, were laced with buried land mines. But South Korean troops, nearly arrived in Wonsan, came up with a brutal solution to the problem: They press-ganged a group of North Korean prisoners and, working in a grid, systematically marched them along the beach. 'It was a surrealistic scene,' recalled Alexander Haig, who witnessed it, 'with men stepping on mines and being blown to bits and the others closing the interval and marching stolidly onward.' Eventually, nearly every one of the prisoners had been killed by their own army's explosives."
On Desperate Ground: The Marines at The Reservoir, the Korean War's Greatest Battle by Hampton Sides
The Soviets did the same thing with their political prisoners and Axis POWs. The Germans also did the same with Soviet POWs.
Yes, I've read about the practice on the Eastern Front, not very pretty but effective I suppose.
One of Granda's favourite sayings (although you wouldn't know it from his delivery) was "Any ship can be a minesweeper once."I've made a start on the Gulf War memoir
Tornado Downas my Remembrance Day read - it also ticks the RAF 100 box....
Jonny wrote: "One of Granda's favourite sayings (although you wouldn't know it from his delivery) was "Any ship can be a minesweeper once."I've made a start on the Gulf War memoir
[bookcover:Tornado Down|17192..."
Nice quote from your Grandad Jonny :)
The author of "On Desperate Ground" mentioned the heroic actions of this Marine, Robert Kennemore, when a grenade landed in a slit trench he was sharing with two other Marines:"The first grenade landed, and with a reflex action, he grabbed it and lobbed it back at the enemy. As he was doing so, another grenade landed. With only seconds to decide what to do, he placed his foot on the grenade and attempted to drive it into the ground when he saw yet another grenade land. Without hesitation, he kneeled down upon the second grenade and braced for the worst. The grenades exploded almost simultaneously throwing Kennemore into the air as he absorbed the bulk of the blast. He had saved his fellow Marines from serious injury or death."
Robert Kennemore:
http://vconline.org.uk/robert-s-kenne...
From the book; "On Desperate Ground", some quotes from Chesty Puller:" … 'So the Chinese are to our east. They're to our west. They're to our north. And to our south. Well, that simplifies things. They can't get away from us now!' "
And:
"One day at Koto-ri, Puller was on a field phone, trying to learn the disposition of the enemy. 'How many Chinese're up there on that ridge?' he yelled into the mouthpiece.
'A shitpot, sir' a scratchy Marine voice replied.
'Well,' said Puller. 'I'm sure as hell glad somebody up there can count!' "
Two great stories AR. Amazing that SSgt Kennemore survived.
Jonny wrote: "One of Granda's favourite sayings (although you wouldn't know it from his delivery) was "Any ship can be a minesweeper once."I've made a start on the Gulf War memoir
[bookcover:Tornado Down|17192..."
An old saying in the U.S. Navy too. USS Samuel B. Roberts (FFG-58) hit a mine in the Persian Gulf in 1988. Only the U.S. Navy's excellent damage control training and procedures saved the ship.
Mike wrote: "Two great stories AR. Amazing that SSgt Kennemore survived."Pretty amazing bloke eh!
I'm still trying to establish how many make up a 'shitpot' :)
The author recounted the amazing story of US Army Private Ed Reeves who was wounded by shrapnel during the fighting around the Chosin Reservoir area, during the retreat his convoy was ambushed by the Chinese forces. He was then shot in the head by a Chinese soldier who was executing American wounded on the road. He survived that and managed to crawl out of his truck only to be discovered by other Chinese soldiers who then beat him to a pulp with their rifle butts and then he managed to crawl on the snow to be finally picked up:http://vetsvoice.homestead.com/Salisb...
The author also mentioned this incident with 'Tootsie Rolls', something unknown in Australia:http://www.usmc-mccs.org/articles/how...
A few of the brave men mentioned in the Epilogue of "On Desperate Ground" who received America's highest honour:http://www.marinemedals.com/cafferata...
http://www.pbs.org/weta/americanvalor...
http://www.cmohs.org/recipient-detail...
Another very brave Marine:https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/3...
During the Vietnam War John Yancey applied to join the Marines again but failed his medical test. One of the disqualifying issues was the poor condition of his teeth. John was quoted as having said, "I wasn't planning on biting the sonsofbitches".
All great stories and brave men AR.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Mike wrote: "Two great stories AR. Amazing that SSgt Kennemore survived."Pretty amazing bloke eh!
I'm still trying to establish how many make up a 'shitpot' :)"
Down South that's not as many as a shitload.
In Australia a shitload is quite a lot as well!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The author also mentioned this incident with 'Tootsie Rolls', something unknown in Australia:http://www.usmc-mccs.org/articles/how..."
I'm rather fond of Tootsie Rolls, but not the 60mm kind.
Being a mortar man I'll go for the 60mm kind but upgrade to 81mm please :)
Hastings is in & already has company on the shelf:
Huế 1968: A Turning Point of the American War in Vietnamby Mark Bowden
Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975 by Max Hastings
Two excellent books Dimitri!
Colin wrote: "Well, the erata list and rebuttal is 44 pages long, and only concerns less than 20 pages of his book. Too much to put here, but the highlights are that he disparaged BGEN (then LtCol) William Weise..."I'd like to put my views - it seems somewhat unlikely that Sir Max will answer this himself, and unfair that it remains undiscussed.
I've read the section of the book twice now, once as a general read and again this week after Colin's post. I'm not sure off in some part Colin is perhaps too close to the subject, but apart from one rather sarcastic comment (Sir Max does let loose in this book) the two senior officers mentioned are dealt with with respect.
This is Hastings on Weise
“This last figure was phantasmagorical, but Weise had learned that he was expected to balloon body count if he wished to keep his job.
The battalion commander was thirty-nine years old, son of a blue-collar worker from a tough district of Philadelphia. He caught the tail end of the Korean war, thereafter became a qualified ranger, scuba-diver and master-parachutist. He had assumed command of the battalion six months earlier when his predecessor was wounded, and had since worked hard to rebuild discipline and morale. He said: ‘There were so many things that weren’t right. My men were not fully trained: they were sloppy. When I asked for a fire support plan, the operations officer didn’t know how to put one together.’ Weise was not the type destined to command armies, but instead a courageous, decent, conscientious officer who chain-smoked cheap cigars because they did not glow at night like cigarettes, and worried somewhat that his wife Ethel might not be waiting when he went home, because she was furious with him for soliciting assignment to Vietnam.”
And the postscript to the battle:
“The Marines’ immediate instinct was to blame Weise, though he himself did not walk for three weeks, and returned to duty only after a year. How did his wife Ethel take it? ‘She was kind – kinder than I thought she would be.’ Justice seems to place rightful blame on Col. Milton Hull and Maj. Gen. Rathvon McClure Tompkins of 3rd Marine Division. It is understandable that on 30 April those officers sent two companies to clear the shore of the Bo Dieu, when they had little idea what enemy were present. It is extraordinary that they insisted upon continuing frontal assaults through 1 and 2 May. Weise said: ‘I don’t believe Tompkins ever realised what was going on. He seemed paralysed. On that third day when they told us to keep going, I said, “This is stupid.”’”
And Jim Livingston:
“Echo was commanded by Jim Livingston, a dedicated warrior from McCrae, Georgia, who had no patience with fools, fainthearts, weaklings or pot-smokers, and liked to lead training runs for which his men were weighted with flak jackets. ‘I had a very strong mother,’ he said with relish. ‘She would knock the hell out of me. I was a pretty tough guy. I really wanted to get into a scrap.’ Pfc Michael Helms said: ‘We blamed the skipper for our woes because it seemed he was always volunteering us. A lot of us figured he would win the Medal of Honor, or die trying. We used to gripe and bitch among ourselves that he would probably kill us all getting it, but he definitely had our respect.’ Weise said that Livingston gave his men ‘tough love’, adding that he was supremely ‘battle-smart’.”
I'm not able to comment on any deficiencies in geography or units, except to say i was never aware that the Marines were not fighting hard against superior forces who were in their own back yard. Courtside didn't really figure except in a couple of (unnamed) cases although I was aware that the Marines were perhaps subject to the sane problems re: the draft as the army which affected morale?
Finally, with reference to the issues of sources, it's possibly best to simply copy the list off references direct from my Kindle; it is heavy but not exclusive on Nolan, and does include interviews with Weise and Livingston, and reference to Colin's book. ‘The unit had its share’ the account that follows derives from author interviews with participants Brig. Gen. Bill Weise, Maj. Gen. James Livingston & Col. Jim Williams; Keith Nolan’s 1994 book The Magnificent Bastards; a 2014 US Marine Corps documentary film narrative of the battle; USMC records of the 1st Amtrak Battalion PR/F/4/2; and Vietnamese histories as detailed below
‘we were just’ Nolan Magnificent Bastards p.11
‘You can maybe find’ AI Williams 16.9.16
‘There were so many things’ AI Weise 5.3.16
‘All you Marines’ AI Williams 16.9.16
‘On the night of’ Nolan Magnificent Bastards p.12 et seq.
‘We were worn out’ ibid.
‘This proved a bad’ ibid. p.16
‘It was without doubt’ ibid. p.21
‘They completed digging’ Battles of Vietnamese Artillery during the War of Liberation Vol. II Hanoi 1990 p.8 et seq.
‘Shoot one of them’ Nolan Bastards p.42
‘Wounded Marines’ ibid. p.59
‘We were so close’ Livingston, James E. with Colin D. Heaton & Anne-Marie Lewis Noble Warrior Zenith Press 2010 p.47
‘No goddamn sailor’ AI Williams 16.9.16
‘they had a good’ Nolan Bastards p.87
‘Bravo had been suffering’ ibid. p.80
‘Everybody just freaked’ ibid. p.82
‘Somebody went and’ ibid. p.84
‘at this stage’ History of the 320th Lowland Division Hanoi 1984 p.75 et seq.
‘We’re in a world’ Nolan Bastards p.77
‘Bill Weise was’ ibid. p.133
‘The troops were on’ ibid. p.92
‘There was a lot’ ibid. p.104
‘The NVA triumphantly’ History of the 320th Division p.76
‘I had a very’ AI Livingston 3.3.16
‘We blamed’ Nolan Bastards p.146
‘Those kids … had’ ibid. p.136
‘The day was still’ ibid. p.169
‘I bled pretty good’ AI Livingston 3.3.16
‘They destroyed us’ Nolan Bastards p.195
‘We too had suffered’ Battles of the Vietnamese Artillery Vol. II p.16 ‘They wouldn’t give up’ AI Livingston 3.3.16
‘The entire US battalion’ History of the 320th Division p.81
‘In a single afternoon’ ibid. p.84
‘It was absolutely’ Nolan Bastards p.305
‘I don’t believe’ AI Weise 5.3.16
Throughout all this, I'm only providing my viewpoint on Colin's comments - I'm of the opinion that 2/4 had a hell of a fight and they came off best. I can only offer my views, based on the book (yes, further reading required) but I hope Colin can put me right on a few points. Oh, and sorry for the War and Peace like posts.
Thanks Jonny. The pointed details are in the final rebuttal package that is being submitted to several sources. As I was just the organizer of the information, I cannot put the specifics here pre-empting the release. First, it was proven that Weise never padded casualtyy figures. In fact, the post war research showed that his count was accurate with what he knew from the body count. In fact Weise was not concerned about "keeping his job" because he had been fired because he would not push attacks due to lack of ammunition and supplies, but was reinstated on appeal after he made his argument.
There were a lot more casualties not located who were dead or died of wounds later as the enemy tried to drag away their dead. This was admitted by the NVA general interviewed years ago. We also recover our dead as a matter of course after battles, whenever possible.
Hastings had the order of battle wrong, specifics of coordinated actions mixed up, and improper distances to and between objectives. A couple of miles is a far different thing than "a few hundred yards" when you are charging into enemy fire.
The worst case was where he mentioned cowardice on the part of the 2/4 Marines, and that 2/4 was a destroyed unit incapable of operating afterward. That was also untrue, not a single Marine who survived saw any cowardice, and 2/4 was back into battle in support of Operation Scotland II soon afterward.
Hastings also makes the error of concluding that the 320th NVA Division had no intention of attacking Dong Ha Combat Base (DHCB), which is hilarious considering that 3 regiments did not spend months preparing fortified and reinforced bunkers and tunnels, staging supplies and troops (b/w 6000-10000) because they were bored. This is stated by the North Vietnamese sources who were interviewed by Weise and Livingston in the 1990's.
Dong Ha and the Cua Viet/Bo Dieu Rivers and terrain were their primary objective in support of the continued Tet Offensive. That was because this area was the only supply point for I Corps, and the most important support base in Vietnam.
They were also planing to take Khe Sanh and Da Nang as well, all in a coordinated series of attacks. Has 2/4 not stumbled upon them by accident, and won, all of Qaung Tri Province would have fallen, possible ending the war by Christmas at the earliest.
If any of those things had happened the propaganda victory for the communists would have been insurmountable, and the Marine would have never recovered.
Also Hastings fails to mention that bulldozer operators and intel types buried over 2,000 enemy KIA in a mass grave after the three day battle as verified by Gen. Harry Summers, US Army. The NVA general and VC chief after the war both admitted that one regiment virtually ceased to exist, and the other two had to be withdrawn and refitted as a result of casualties. All admissions from the enemy, but strangely missing from Hastings' book.
Whether Hastings had a predisposition and bias I do not know. What is known is that he made errors and assumptions, which to the average layman may not be that significant. But to the old men I know today who were young men fighting for their lives 50 years ago, it is unforgivable.
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Angel of Dien Bien Phu: The Lone French Woman at the Decisive Battle for Vietnam (other topics)The Korean War: 1945-1954 (other topics)
Korea: War Without End (other topics)
The Vietnam War: A Military History (other topics)
The Angel of Dien Bien Phu: The Lone French Woman at the Decisive Battle for Vietnam (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Allan Reed Millett (other topics)Allan Reed Millett (other topics)
Richard Dannatt (other topics)
Geoffrey Wawro (other topics)
David W. Cameron (other topics)
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I remain convinced our involvement in Vietnam had much more to do with American domestic politics than with the legitimate national security and foreign policy interests of the U.S. The Democrats spent the fifties in the political wilderness due to Republican success in depicting them as soft on Communism. Once back in the Oval Office, keeping in mind JFK barely won, the Democrats had to appear tough. They had to be immune from a flank attack on the right for being weak. JFK was toeing a thin line between appearing tough and resolute and being perceived as weak and naive.