THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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Post 1945 Conflicts
Sounds interesting Jonny. I'm sure I've got this edition of the book somewhere, I will have to dig around my library to se if I can actually put my hands on it!
Ripcord: Screaming Eagles Under Siege, Vietnam 1970 by Keith William Nolan
Keith Nolan did the book Magnificent Bastards about the battle of Dai Do/Dong Ha in Quang Tri Province, April 30-May 4 1968, which was great research for Anne and I as we wrote the autobiography of Maj Gen James E. Livingston, who received the Medal of Honor as CO of Echo Company 2nd Bn 4th Marine Regt.Then a Col. Livingston was my Regt. CO when I was a Marine Scout Sniper, and he reached out to me, and wanted us to write the book "Noble Warrior: The Life Story of Maj Gen James E. Livingston" with him so Nolan's work was crucial for small details and he is always very solid on the research.
Thank you, Colin, you made the point I had intended to make- i.e. that Nolan was an extremely talented, dedicated and scrupulous researcher...
Looks like some pay will be disappearing come September:
Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975Mighty Max's take promises to be worth a look...
Jonny wrote: "Looks like some pay will be disappearing come September: Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975Mighty Max's take promises to b..."
Yes, already have it on my wish list :)
Jonny wrote: "Looks like some pay will be disappearing come September: Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975Mighty Max's take promises to b..."
Just saw this one in my feed. Looks like Sir Hastings' bank account will be expanding at my expense.
Max Hastings contacted me a couple of years ago to help him get introduced to some of the more luminary Vietnam Vets as I work in that arena for many flag officers, now retired. I set him up with some face to face time, especially with former Marine Corps Commandant Alfred M. Gray, who was chief when I was in the Corps. Sir Max is always solid because he, like me, always goes to the sources who were there.
Jonny wrote: "About a quarter of the way through 
Ripcord: Screaming Eagles Under Siege, Vietnam 1970Pretty much a story of..."
I read somewhere that in comparing the Army in Viet Nam to the Army in Korea - In Korea the US went into with a very poor Army and came out with a very good one. In Viet Nam, the US went into it with a very good Army and came out with a very poor one. I think story helps in coming to that conclusion for Viet Nam any way.
That sounds like a reasonably accurate assessment Happy.
This credibly reads like an army at the nadir of morale.
I'm making a start on
Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe, 1944-1956; Kempe inBerlin 1961: Kennedy, Khruschev, and the Most Dangerous Place on Earth. made mention of the 1953 East German uprising which I'd like to know a little more about, and hopefully some blanks on the Ukrainian and Polish resistances to the Soviets might get filled in too.
Keep us posted Jonny, I'd be keen to hear your thoughts on this book.
In case anyone didn't notice, I finally finished my review of
; here is a link if you would like to read it: (https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...)...
Our satellite history channel PBS started the Director's Cut of The Vietnam War last night.. only adding an extra eight hours or so! Hopefully this won't be just padding (although I wouldn't call any footage of Rhinos passing at all...)
Joaniepony wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Our satellite history channel PBS started the Director's Cut of The Vietnam War last night.. only adding an extra eight hours or so! Hopefully this won't be just padding (although I w..."Phantoms
An idyllic scene on the Golan heights - very much the calm before the storm:" The Habad [an orthodox Hassidic sect known for its cheerfully religious and optimistic outlook on life] had been successful in their mission and to his amazement Yair found all the troops, including the non-religious boys, fading and absorbed in prayer."
The War of Atonement: The Inside Story of the Yom Kippur War
A rough afternoon on Mount Hermon:" At 2:55 a report arrived that four Syrian helicopters loaded with troops of a Syrian commando battalion were approaching the upper level of the ski lift, a mile from the Hermon position. One helicopter exploded. The three others landed, discharged their troops in the observation posts at the upper end of the ski lift (these troops escaped down the ski path to the lower level of the ski lift). Suddenly the look-out in the Hermon position reported Syrian troops advancing in two columns inside the compound of the Israeli position. Two heavy machine guns had already been damaged in the shelling and were out of action: there was one heavy machine gun and an automatic rifle, but all personnel were armed with Uzi submachine guns. The Israelis started to fire and some Syrian troops fell. Some of the service personnel, fit whom this was a first exposure to fire, clustered in the rooms of the bunker frozen by fear, and the pleas of those fighting to come and give a hand remained unanswered.
One after another those fighting fell. dead or wounded. At one point six Israeli soldiers were engaging at least a hundred attacking Syrian commandos. Anyone who raised his head for more than a split second was hit by snipers. The battle continued for forty-five minutes and under murderous fire the six fighters withdrew into the hall of the bunker."
During Yom Kippur in 1973, my family was living in Nicosia, Cyprus. My grandmother was coming for a visit (I was 11 years old then), and the was airport shut down. Two fighters had briefly appeared over the airport, one Israeli, another was a MiG unidentified then (later ID'd as Syrian). Then they disappeared, the Israeli chasing the Syrian. After the short dogfight that had drifted west to us from the mainland the airport reopened. That was what then sparked my interest in air combat, hence the end result of my post military career as a historian.
And a desperate stand on the Golan Heights:" The troops manning positions A8, A9 and A10 were also authorised that night to withdraw. On Sunday morning the men from A8 and A9 were evacuated to the area of Rafid, where they were completely surrounded, but the relieving forces of A10 failed to break through. The position remained besieged, with its commander, a young lieutenant, lying wounded on a stretcher. For four days the platoon sergeant acting under his wounded lieutenants instructions commanded the defence of the position, surrounded as it was by overwhelming Syrian forces. There was no doctor and the medical orderly kept one wounded soldier alive by administering an infusion. An Israeli battery of 175mm guns was the only support that the position had from outside as artillery fire was brought down constantly on them. When the position was finally relieved for days later the relieving troops found the entire surrounding area strewn d with dozens of dead Syrian soldiers, many of them on the fences. Seven tanks lay destroyed, mute testimony to the incredible bravery and determination of a handful of boys. One wrecked Syrian tank was actually blocking the main door of the fortification with its gun pointing at the door."
Good stories Jonny and Colin, thanks for posting the details.
A story on the mindset of the Israeli troops on the northern flank during Yom Kippur:">i> At noon on Tuesday a psychiatrist arrived from the medical centre of Tel Hashomer to take care of the soldiers of the Barak brigade. He stood and looked at the dishevelled, unshaven, gaunt-eyed soldiers, duke of them burnt and most of them blackened by smoke and flames, working silently on the damaged tanks and putting them into shape. It was a moving and sobering sight. He asked what they were doing and they explained that they were preparing the tanks to take them into battle again. 'If they are going into battle again, I had better forget everything I ever learnt' he remarked."
This August 2018 release may be of interest to some group members, I know I'm interested :)
In the Year of the Tiger: The War for Cochinchina, 1945-1951 by William M. WaddellDescription:
In 1950, France experienced two parallel but different outcomes in its Indochina war. While the conflict in the north ended with a disastrous defeat for the French at Dien Bien Phu, in southern Vietnam, or Cochinchina, France emerged victorious in a series of violent but now largely forgotten actions. In the Year of the Tiger tells the story of this critical southern campaign, revealing in dramatic detail how the French war for Cochinchina set the stage for the American war in Vietnam.
In northern Vietnam, the French troops had focused on destroying Viet Minh main force units. A dearth of resources in the south dictated a different strategy. William M. Waddell III describes how, by avoiding costly attempts to defeat the Viet Minh in the traditional military sense, the southern French command was able to secure key economic and political strongholds. Consulting both French and Vietnamese sources, Waddell examines the principal commanders on both sides, their competing strategies, and the hard-fought military campaign that they waged for control of the south. The author's deft analysis suggests that counter to widely accepted views, the Viet Minh were not invincible, and the outcome of the conflict in Indochina was not inevitable.
A challenge to historical orthodoxy, In the Year of the Tiger presents a more balanced interpretation of the French war for Indochina. At the same time, the book alters and expands our understanding of the precedents and the dynamics of America's Vietnam War.
Jonny, if you would like to read an account of the 1973 Golan battles by one of the participants, check out
. One of the best books I've ever read... General Kahalani's other book (
) is good also.
They look like two pretty interesting accounts Liam and it reminded me that I have a copy of this book still sitting unread in my library:
On The Banks Of The Suez: An Israeli General's Personal Account of the Yom Kippur War by Avraham (Bren) Adan
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "They look like two pretty interesting accounts Liam and it reminded me that I have a copy of this book still sitting unread in my library:[bookcover:On The Banks Of The Suez: An Israeli General's..."
General Adan's book is also quite good, Rick...
A number of years ago, I read George F. Kennan's Memoirs 1925-1950, focusing on his Russian experiences from the reopening of a US embassy in 1933 through WWII and the formulation of the Marshall Plan.I've just added a new book to my to-read list, The Marshall Plan: Dawn of the Cold War by Benn Steil.
Running toward hallway through the extended (near as dammit 2 hours per episode) version of Burns Vietnam War, and I'm even moor blown away than I was in the autumn - real high end documentary making, and the extended coverage is quite spectacular. Well worth a look if you get the chance (unless it's just us Brits that got short changed).
Jonny wrote: "Running toward hallway through the extended (near as dammit 2 hours per episode) version of Burns Vietnam War, and I'm even moor blown away than I was in the autumn - real high end documentary maki..."I'm putting the DVD set on my birthday list Jonny, I have his films on the Civil War and WW2, love them both.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Running toward hallway through the extended (near as dammit 2 hours per episode) version of Burns Vietnam War, and I'm even moor blown away than I was in the autumn - real high end do..."Hadn't realised he'd done a WW2 as well Rick - I'll have to look it out.
Cheers Rick, should be worth a look, even if it misses the start
Now that the two leaders have arrived in Singapore for the Summit, how about some recommendations on good books on the Korean War? I have not read a single one yet.
Chin Joo wrote: "Now that the two leaders have arrived in Singapore for the Summit, how about some recommendations on good books on the Korean War? I have not read a single one yet."Chin Joo: I read Max Hastings' book on the Korean War. It's not bad, but Anglo-centric.
The Korean War.
Chin Joo wrote: "Now that the two leaders have arrived in Singapore for the Summit, how about some recommendations on good books on the Korean War? I have not read a single one yet."
Scorched Earth, Black Snow: Britain and Australia in the Korean War, 1950
To the Last Round: The Epic British Stand on the Imjin River, Korea 1951
Chin Joo wrote: "Now that the two leaders have arrived in Singapore for the Summit, how about some recommendations on good books on the Korean War? I have not read a single one yet."Brothers at War: The Unending Conflict in Korea
I wrote a review on this one. It is comprehensive and very timely.
This one was pretty good and I would add it to Jonny's recommended two for a well-rounded view of the war.
The Coldest Winter: America and the Korean War
Manray9 wrote: "Chin Joo wrote: "Now that the two leaders have arrived in Singapore for the Summit, how about some recommendations on good books on the Korean War? I have not read a single one yet."I have read This Kind of War: A Study in Unpreparedness by T.R. Fehrenbach several times, albeit not recently. After reading MR9's comment, I pulled out my 1964 edition to double check, because I vaguely remembered the description of the Turkish brigade. After its decimation, the US quietly tried to apologise for ill placement and nonsupport of the brigade, to the consternation of the Turks. They had come to fight and were proud that they had.
Among others, Abyssinians, French and Thais are listed as allies.
message 192:
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Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
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Chin Joo wrote: "Now that the two leaders have arrived in Singapore for the Summit, how about some recommendations on good books on the Korean War? I have not read a single one yet."Some good suggestions Chin Joo and I second Jonny's To the Last Round.
Mike wrote: "This one was pretty good and I would add it to Jonny's recommended two for a well-rounded view of the war.[book:The Coldest Winter..."Yes, I really enjoyed The Coldest Winter as well. I certainly would not dissuade anyone from reading it. The problem is that it is about a very specific period of time and, as the title indicates, Halberstam's focus is of the American forces in Korea. The Brothers War was a much broader book and it is also very entertaining.
All excellent recommendations and here is one that covers the history of the build up to war and the 50 odd years after the conflict ended:
Korea by Michael Pembroke
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "All excellent recommendations and here is one that covers the history of the build up to war and the 50 odd years after the conflict ended:Korea by [auth..."Another one gets placed on the TBR mountain.
Glad I could help fill the gaps on your book shelves Mike :)
Thank you all very much for your recommendations. I can always count on this group. :)The Vietnam War ended when I was a kid, and because the adults talked about it, I knew about it since then. The Korean War is different, I didn't know about it until I was much older and it being further from home, holds less interest to me. Later I tried to avoid going into it for fear of another pile of TBR books.
But in line with the occasion, I'm going to go through your recommendations and see if I can get hold of some of them.
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Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
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Hi Chin Joo, my current book has much on Vietnam and the slow slide to deploying more and more "advisors" and eventually troops. The interest here is in JFK, his advisors and their ideas and plans and the PR battle at home and abroad,
Camelot's Court: Inside the Kennedy White House by Robert Dallek
Geevee wrote: "Hi Chin Joo, my current book has much on Vietnam and the slow slide to deploying more and more "advisors" and eventually troops. The interest here is in JFK, his advisors and their ideas and plans ..."It's interesting to see how easy these labyrinths are to get into, but not out of.
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Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
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Indeed and I'm finding it interesting to see how publicly he was being criticised from many varied quarters in the US as having no backbone or being too young or unable to step up, yet had he not wavered or indeed been as cautious his military chiefs would have used nuclear weapons in Laos, Cuba, Vietnam and even in respect of Berlin (into the USSR).
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Angel of Dien Bien Phu: The Lone French Woman at the Decisive Battle for Vietnam (other topics)The Korean War: 1945-1954 (other topics)
Korea: War Without End (other topics)
The Vietnam War: A Military History (other topics)
The Angel of Dien Bien Phu: The Lone French Woman at the Decisive Battle for Vietnam (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Allan Reed Millett (other topics)Allan Reed Millett (other topics)
Richard Dannatt (other topics)
Geoffrey Wawro (other topics)
David W. Cameron (other topics)
More...
Pretty much a story of undertrained and patchily led lower ranks doing their best with officers desperate to avoid casualties and keep their career records clean, while maintaining some semblance of unit pride and dignity - this certainly isn't the 101st of The Market Garden corridor or Bastogne.
The narrative started partway through the story with the horrendous night long overrun of C Company by a NVA force; sadly poor discipline allowed sappers into the perimeter leading to the elimination of Command and Control early on; dune quite terrible scenes.
So that's thrown me a little; still a good book though, but I think it's the US Army at the bottom of the barrel.