THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA
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Post 1945 Conflicts
I wonder, based on the technology of the times, what alternative system there could have been.
fourtriplezed wrote: "I wonder, based on the technology of the times, what alternative system there could have been."Problem nothing much else to be honest 4ZZZ!
In four pence, in for a pound I suppose...
message 655:
by
Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
(new)
I remember when the book was published that excerpt featured heavily in the press. I suppose it beats lighting beacons along the hills of England and waving flags.
This looks like an interesting read if you are interested in Vietnam. It focuses on the early diplomacy, but it is also a personal side of things:
by Charles Trueheart (no photo)
This discussion has been around for a time. I wonder if anyone has mentioned or has thoughts about
.The author, a Spanish journalist is known to ignore the majority western press on various conflicts involving Muslims, among others.
As an English speaking American a lot of his coverage is/was not previously available.
I expect to be shocked. Am I being reliably informed?
I’ve picked up The Abyss: Nuclear Crisis Cuba 1962 again after a break, where communications issues are a continuing theme. Here’s a companion piece to my previous quote (about Britain’s nuclear attack protocol), this time explaining the Russian embassy’s process for sending urgent messages from the US back to the motherland. “The ambassador submitted to Moscow a verbatim account of this meeting, to emphasize the agitation within the US president's inner circle. He subsequently lamented 'how primitive were our embassy's communications with Moscow ... when every hour, not just every day, counted for so much'. The cable about the conversation with Robert Kennedy was manually coded into columns of numbers: 'Then we called Western Union, [who] would send a messenger ... usually the same young black man, who came to the embassy on a bicycle. After he pedalled away with my urgent cable, we could only pray that he would take it to the Western Union office without delay and not stop to chat to some girl!'”
Another great post Tony, scary to think how fragile the communication system was back then.
A linked point Hastings makes (and repeats, as is his way) is how poor communication resulted in quite junior officers having a scary degree of autonomy.
Tony wrote: "A linked point Hastings makes (and repeats, as is his way) is how poor communication resulted in quite junior officers having a scary degree of autonomy."I suppose we should count our lucky stars that we are still alive :)
Tony wrote: "'Then we called Western Union, [who] would send a messenger ..."Pretty amazing to see Soviet cables transmitted by Western Union.
I finished Max Hastings’s Abyss this evening. Definitely recommended for anyone after an introduction to the Missile Crisis, or just after a good read.
Tony wrote: "I finished Max Hastings’s Abyss this evening. Definitely recommended for anyone after an introduction to the Missile Crisis, or just after a good read.[bookcover:Ab..."
Thanks, Tony.
Tony wrote: "I finished Max Hastings’s Abyss this evening. Definitely recommended for anyone after an introduction to the Missile Crisis, or just after a good read.[bookcover:Ab..."
Sounds good Tony as I have an unread copy in my library.
Now churning through EMBERS OF WAR: The Fall of an Empire and the Making of America's Vietnam (2012) by Fredrick Logevall.A great read so far, it is easy to see how it won the 2013 Pulitzer Prize for History. I expect I will have to start hunting for a hardcover edition to add to my permanent library.
James wrote: "Now churning through EMBERS OF WAR: The Fall of an Empire and the Making of America's Vietnam (2012) by Fredrick Logevall.A great read so far, it is easy to see how it won the 2013 Pulitzer Prize..."
He's a great writer and historian. His biography on JFK is the best I read and covers his WWII period:
by Fredrik Logevall (no photo)
James wrote: "Now churning through EMBERS OF WAR: The Fall of an Empire and the Making of America's Vietnam (2012) by Fredrick Logevall.A great read so far, it is easy to see how it won the 2013 Pulitzer Prize..."
A good book indeed, glad to hear you are enjoying it!
"Revolusi: Indonesia and the Birth of the Modern World" - The fighting then began to escalate, with a large battle involving the British at Surabaya, where Mountbatten had to send in the 5th Indian Division to get things under control:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...
"Revolusi: Indonesia and the Birth of the Modern World" - Its 1946 and the Dutch have started conscription so as to be able to send forces to Indonesia, it was not a popular move:"On the dock another brass band was playing the Wilhelmus to further encourage the troops and console those they were leaving behind. But the carriages of the trains still had 'Meat transport Amsterdam-Batavia' daubed on them."
And;
"In total no fewer than 120,000 Dutch conscripts would depart between 1946 and 1949, an enormous number that approached the general mobilisation before World War II (150,000). Six thousand recruits who were examined and judged 'fir for the tropics' refused to embark. Many of these were tracked down and hauled out of their beds by the military police. This hunt for deserters went on until 1958! Strict sentences were passed on 2,565 war resisters. Almost three-quarters received custodial sentences of up to two years, the rest remained in jail even longer. Altogether a total of fifteen centuries of prison sentences were pronounced, a remarkably large amount compared to the complete immunity granted to later war criminals. The conclusion was clear: those who refused to kill were locked up, those who murdered without reason went free."
Dutch War Crimes:
https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/...
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2....
"Revolusi: Indonesia and the Birth of the Modern World" - The author also mentioned Raymond Westerling from the Dutch Army and the 'Westerling method' as used in Indonesia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond...
https://historibersama.com/filing-law...
Two books I found particularly interesting regarding the Indonesian war of independence were Professor George McTurnan Kahin's posthumously published (and technically unfinished) memoir, 'Southeast Asia: A Testament' & Edward Samuel Behr's memoir, which in the U.S. market was known as 'Bearings: A Foreign Correspondent's Life Behind The Lines' due to the fact that the somewhat notorious original title was seen as being in deplorably bad taste and hence unsuitable for American sensibilities... Both men were in the NEI/Indonesia during at least part of the hostilities, though on different sides; Mr. Behr was a young officer in the British Army, and was among the British forces sent initially to disarm the surrendering Japanese occupation forces, and which were then caught in the middle between the Dutch and Indonesians.
Professor Kahin was then a doctoral candidate researching what would eventually become both his dissertation and soon afterward his first book, 'Nationalism and Revolution in Indonesia'. I have not yet read it (though I have read some of his other books), but it has been regarded as a masterpiece of scholarship virtually since it was first published in 1952. His memoir, which I referenced above, is not only one of the best books I ever read about South-East Asia, but one of the best books I have ever read, full stop. I recommend it without reservation, not only because it is so good, but also because Professor Kahin was a friend or acquaintance of most of the major figures in Indonesian politics of the late 1940s & early 1950s, which alone makes this book uniquely valuable and interesting...
Thanks for those details Liam. I think I will need to keep an eye out for a copy of "Nationalism and Revolution in Indonesia".
"Revolusi: Indonesia and the Birth of the Modern World" - The author also mentioned a massacre committed by Dutch troops that took place at Galung Lombok:https://batarahutagalung.blogspot.com...
"Revolusi: Indonesia and the Birth of the Modern World" - The First Police Action (Dutch offensive operation in Indonesia during 1947):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operati...
https://historibersama.com/how-the-du...
With ANZAC Day fast approaching I have decided to start reading this new Australian release which covers a famous battle that was fought on Anzac Day, 1951, in Korea:
Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951 by David W. Cameron
Nice one Rick. Really enjoyed his book on the first day at ANZAC, and I've got a few more of Dave's to choose from for next years anniversary.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "With ANZAC Day fast approaching I have decided to start reading this new Australian release which covers a famous battle that was fought on Anzac Day, 1951, in Korea:[bookcover:Let the Bastards C..."
That looks like a good one. Going to have to get a copy for Mt. TBR!
Jonny wrote: "Nice one Rick. Really enjoyed his book on the first day at ANZAC, and I've got a few more of Dave's to choose from for next years anniversary."He is quite a decent author. I have a series of his books covering the fighting in New Guinea during WW2.
"Revolusi: Indonesia and the Birth of the Modern World" - The second major Dutch offensive - Operation Crow or better known in the Netherlands as the Second Police Action:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operati...
"Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951" - An account of the Turkish Brigade in Korea:"A few months later, in a desperate attack against well dug-in Chinese troops, on what became known as 'Turkish Ridge', the Turkish brigadier, Tahsin Yazici, a Gallipoli veteran recalled: 'I wanted to get my men in a fighting mood, so I told them that the unit on the top of the ridge was the one that had cut us up so badly near Kunu-ri. Of course, I did not know whether they were the same Chinese or not ... my men went up that slope as if they were running in an Olympic sprint. They were in a desperate mood'. Indeed, the ridge was around 150 metres high and extremely steep; it was hard 'even to walk up'. The Turks took the ridge in desperate hand-to-hand fighting. The United States general, James Van Fleet, who had replaced General Matthew Ridgway as commander of the Eighth US Army and UN forces, presented a US Presidential Unit Citation to the young 'boyish' troops of the Turkish Brigade, which read in part: 'a savage battle against a fanatical defence ... Turkish infantrymen literally dragged the enemy from their foxholes'.
Harry Gordon concluded in his chapter in Norman Bartlett's book With the Australians in Korea published in 1954: 'If the seeds of this joint respect were planted at Gallipoli, it ripened in the dust and snow of Korea. The Turk's relish for hand-to-hand fighting, their first-class leadership, their discipline under fire ... these were attributes the Australians in Korea possessed themselves and admired in others'."
1st Turkish Brigade baptism of fire in Korea:
https://www.historynet.com/korean-war...
Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951 by David W. Cameron
"Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951" - Upon arrival in Korea the Australians were attached to a British Brigade:"Within a month, after the decisive Inchon landings - 9 October - the men of 3 RAR were attached to the 27th British Brigade, commanded by Brigadier Aubrey Coad. Consequently, it was redesignated the 27th British Commonwealth Brigade (27 BCB), with the addition of the Australian troops. Coad stated at the time: 'I have always admired Australian soldiers and to have a battalion in my brigade is a dream come true'. He also later recorded that the Australians 'were the finest fighting battalion he had ever seen' but he could not get use to the fact that they refused to salute, but rather, they waved. In the end, he gave up and merely 'waved back'."
IWM - Voices of the Korean War:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""presented a US Presidential Unit Citation to the young 'boyish' troops of the Turkish Brigade, which read in part: 'a savage battle against a fanatical defence ... Turkish infantrymen literally dragged the enemy from their foxholes'...."That was a good article with that post AR. Brave soldiers, those Turks.
They were tough fighters indeed!
"Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951" - The first major battle of the 3rd Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment, in Korea was the 'Apple Orchard':https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/...
"Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951" - This incident took place in late 1950 during the Battle of Chonju:"As night fell, the enemy launched a massive counterattack, supported by tanks and self-propelled guns. The thrust of the attack fell against the positions occupied by Lieutenant Mannet and 10 Platoon, who held the most forward position of 'D' Company. Mannet recalled: 'We could hear them massing at the bottom of the hill ... Suddenly they were screaming and getting close, but our boys held their fire. They were ten yards [metres] away when we let go with everything we had'. It was now that 31-year-old Private John Stafford, from Narrabri in New South Wales, crept to within 20 metres of a T-34 tank, and with a burst from his Bren gun, his bullets tore into the exposed external petrol tank, setting it ablaze. Stafford had already distinguished himself for his actions just hours before in the battle to take the ridge and was awarded a US Silver Star for his bravery. Mannett and his men did not give an inch of ground.
The other two units of the company, 11 and 12 platoons, launched their own counterattacks to reach the young lieutenant and his men. The Australians were again fighting with the bayonet in the darkness of a winter's night. Among these men was 30-year-old Private Allexander Croll from Perth, with 12 Platoon who was wounded in the head by a burst of machinegun fire after he went to help a gravely wounded mate during the final bayonet charge into the enemy positions. Croll somehow survived, but for the rest of his life he was paralysed on his right side. Unbelievably, he had been wounded in the same spot as a mid-upper turret gunner in a RAAF Lancaster bomber during the Second World War. Then, he had made a full recovery after extensive surgery (returning to duty and completing 71 missions over Germany). For his leadership and bravery, Lieutenant David Mannett was awarded the Military Cross."
Private John Stafford:
https://doublereds.org.au/history/men...
Private Alexander Croll:
https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/crol...
"Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951" - Here is a pretty interesting account of artillery in close combat:"By 4 November, 27 BCB [British Commonwealth Brigade] had consolidated around Pakchon, with the men of the 1 A&SH Regiment [Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders] covering an important pass about 12 kilometres to the rear. That morning, the Scots attacked a Chinese blocking force on the road along with troops holding a dominate ridgeline; in support were guns of the 61st US Artillery Battalion. Leading this attack was Captain David Wilson, who recalled: 'Captain Howard More formed his six guns into a semicircle and engaged the enemy over open sights at almost point-bank range. In older days he would have had what we called "canister" but instead he depressed his guns so that the shells bounced off the frozen paddy and exploded in the enemy's faces. As we arrived, we could see his gunners being shot up behind their gun shields while others took their place. It was like seeing something from a war in the Napoleonic Era.' The Scots advanced and forced back the enemy, but later that night, they were attacked and forced to withdraw from the ridgeline."
Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951 by David W. Cameron
Wasn't until Vietnam that the Beehive Artillery Round came into it's own for Artillery units protection.
I am reading an excellent book on Korea by Hampton Sides - On Desperate Ground. At the time I was a teenager and I was aware that the war was grueling; now I am appalled at how very bad it is was. Later I learned that the attorney who helped me through some personal problems was one of those who had to fight his way out from the Chosen Reservoir. He was so compassionate. Later I learned from one of his secretaries that there was nothing better he liked to do after work than hop in his Triumph and roar away. He certainly had earned it.
"On Desperate Ground" is a great account from the Korean War. Glad to hear you are finding the book an interesting read. Nice story about your attorney friend!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""On Desperate Ground" is a great account from the Korean War. Glad to hear you are finding the book an interesting read. Nice story about your attorney friend!"I agree--a very excellent book! If you haven't read his book on the Cabanatuan Raid, "Ghost Soldiers", you definitely need to!
Ghost Soldiers: The Epic Account of World War II's Greatest Rescue Mission
Oh, I have read “Ghost Soldiers”. ✌️
"Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951" - During a break in the fighting an Australian soldier witnessed this incident:"As always seems to be the case during the fiercest battle, humour crept in. Some of the forward troops noticed a lone Chinaman making his way over a ridge to obtain a commanding position, from which he could snipe our lines. A sergeant attached to the Support Company saw him and fired, but only kicked up the dust at the Chinaman's feet. This sergeant was always known as a good shot so some of the boys chaffed him. Full of determination, he had another shot and the same thing happened. Again, the boys barracked him, and this time, with a do or die glint in his eye, he fired but only to see the same again. Then, to his amazement, the Chinaman whipped off his shirt, tied it to his rifle and waved a 'Washout' which highly amused the Australians and helped relieve the tension."
Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951 by David W. Cameron
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Then, to his amazement, the Chinaman whipped off his shirt, tied it to his rifle and waved a 'Washout' which highly amused the Australians and helped relieve the tension."..."Really enjoyed that post AR!
"Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951" - The author mentioned the heroic actions of Private Horace William Madden whilst a POW, he subsequently died in captivity and was posthumously awarded the George Cross:https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/madd...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951" - During a break in the fighting an Australian soldier witnessed this incident:"As always seems to be the case during the..."
That's a good one, AR.
"Let the Bastards Come: The Battle for Kapyong Korea, 23 – 25 April 1951" - I forget to mention the heroic stand of the 1st Battalion, The Gloucestershire Regiment at the Battle of the Imjin River:https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/battle-...
Gloucester Hill Battle Monument:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glouces...
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Angel of Dien Bien Phu: The Lone French Woman at the Decisive Battle for Vietnam (other topics)The Korean War: 1945-1954 (other topics)
Korea: War Without End (other topics)
The Vietnam War: A Military History (other topics)
The Angel of Dien Bien Phu: The Lone French Woman at the Decisive Battle for Vietnam (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Allan Reed Millett (other topics)Allan Reed Millett (other topics)
Richard Dannatt (other topics)
Geoffrey Wawro (other topics)
David W. Cameron (other topics)
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“In that pre-cellphone era, a bizarre communications machinery was created, which remained..."
Sounds like a fairly robust system with no possible issues!