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Post 1945 Conflicts
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Jonny
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Apr 10, 2022 07:08AM
Anniversaries abound; time to break out White's book on the smaller participant in the Falklands air war, after his excellent debut detailing the high level strike on Stanley.
Harrier 809: The Epic Story of How a Small Band of Heroes Won Victory in the Air Against Impossible Odds
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Jonny wrote: "Anniversaries abound; time to break out White's book on the smaller participant in the Falklands air war, after his excellent debut detailing the high level strike on Stanley.[bookcover:Harrier 80..."
I hope its as good as his other books, I'm sure it will be. Keep us all posted Jonny.
Jonny wrote: "Anniversaries abound; time to break out White's book on the smaller participant in the Falklands air war, after his excellent debut detailing the high level strike on Stanley.[bookcover:Harrier 80..."
Looking forward to hearing your feedback on this one Jonny, I thought it was excellent.
There are a couple of good podcasts out on the Falklands that are well worth a listen. Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland did a four-parter on "The Rest is History." And Saul David and Patrick Bishop have just launched a new podcast, "Battleground." I think the idea is to cover 20th Century conflicts, but they are starting with a multi-part series on the Falklands. The first one has an interview with Lord Luce, fascinating stuff!
If any of you haven't read it yet, Tim Spicer's memoir (
) had an interesting account of his service in the Falklands conflict. Hard to believe it's already been 40 years- I remember being absolutely riveted by the war coverage in the press at the time. As a kid, I was just so fascinated by warplanes that the Harriers, Pucarás etc. were irresistible. Both of those are still among my favorite post-45 aircraft. According to Wikipedia, somebody in North Carolina had a Pucará listed for sale not long ago...
Liam wrote: "If any of you haven't read it yet, Tim Spicer's memoir () had an interesting account of his service in the Falklands ..."I was 10 - my first TV war, and yes, the scenes from San Carlos, Bluff Cove and the mountains around Stanley have stuck in the back of many mind (as did the IAF's operations over the Beka'a at roughly the same time). We visited the Yorkshire Air Museum down at Elvington on Tuesday, and attended a talk on the Black Buck missions (Martin Withers, the commander of the Vulcan,is a museum trustee).
The RN SHAR crews were pretty short on Intel on some of their opponents - the capabilities of the A-4 were known from contact with the USN, and the RAAF were able to provide information about the Mirage III, but the Super Etendard was an unknown quantity:
Instead of insights into the SuE, DNAW produced a report on the birdstrike hazard to fast jets in the South Atlantic drafted by the Aviation Bird Unit at Worplesdon in Surrey. Gedge learned that ‘unlike the birds encountered around the British Isles many of those in the South Atlantic are very large’. The report included a map of albatross distribution in South Georgia, and while it acknowledged that the Falkland Islands’ largest bird, the gentoo penguin, ‘was incapable of flight’ it warned that they could jump a bit, albeit not ‘very far off the ground’.Might be a danger to typically operated British jets...
Harrier 809: The Epic Story of How a Small Band of Heroes Won Victory in the Air Against Impossible Odds
Jonny wrote: " The report included a map of albatross distribution in South Georgia, and while it acknowledged that the Falkland Islands’ largest bird, the gentoo penguin, ‘was incapable of flight’ it warned that they could jump a bit, albeit not ‘very far off the ground’.Might be a danger to typically operated British jets......"
Yeah, the Brits do fly low. I recall going to Red Flag in my A-7D. We thought we were cool flying at 100' AGL until the Buccaneers flew under us.
Very interesting post Jonny. I never considered the idea of the Brit's contacting the USN and the RAAF to get relevant information on those particular aircraft and their capabilities. It makes perfect sense, but to be honest I never thought about it until you mentioned it.
Can't remember if it's in Rowland White's book, but France also gave the UK full specs for Exocet and the Super Etenard.
Chris wrote: "Can't remember if it's in Rowland White's book, but France also gave the UK full specs for Exocet and the Super Etenard."It is in White's book, but the French, with typical Gallic charm, in fact did the total opposite. They blocked any attempt to learn about the Super Etendard. The British had been touting the Sea Harrier as an (expensive) alternative to the Etendard, and there are long memories involved...
Jonny wrote: "Chris wrote: "Can't remember if it's in Rowland White's book, but France also gave the UK full specs for Exocet and the Super Etenard."It is in White's book, but the French, with typical Gallic c..."
Hmm, that's a bit harsh on the French, no? John Nott described France as Britians's best ally during the war. I'm sure I've read that they gave Britain info on the weapons systems they had sold to Argentina, but I'm not sure I have a good reference for it!
As per, the French played both ends; they embargoed further AM.39 exports but at the same time provided aid to the Argentinians. As previously mentioned, the Americans and Australians were far more helpful - the US in both intelligence and material terms. And I suspect the Aussies would have pitched in more if asked.https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-172...
Jonny wrote: "As per, the French played both ends; they embargoed further AM.39 exports but at the same time provided aid to the Argentinians. As previously mentioned, the Americans and Australians were far more..."I remember when the war broke out and the Australian news mentioned that Britain was going to send in the Gurkhas. I was in the army at that time and the rumour was that Australia was going to contribute a battalion of soldiers and we were all betting which battalion was going to be selected - never happened of course.
I was a junior officer in the U.S. Navy at the time. My job was funneling ELINT to the Royal Navy.
Fun and games with physics for the SHar guys:Some of 809’s SHARs simply appeared to be a lot bigger than others. And, as a result, the ‘D’s – as the Navy likes to call its Fighter Direction Officers – were picking them up on their screens a lot further out. It was a concern and a puzzle.While I knew about the issues with the intakes and the radar cross section, the WD40 is a new one!
Every aircraft has its own particular radar signature. Very broadly, the bigger the aircraft, the bigger the radar return. But shape is also a factor, and features like the cavernous air intakes and exposed fan of the Sea Harrier’s Pegasus engine had a magnifying effect on the jet’s radar cross-section, or RCS. From head-on that was a disadvantage well known and understood by the Navy, but it didn’t account for the huge discrepancy between different airframes.
But 809’s fleet of SHARs, drawn at short notice from various different sources, was still anything but uniform. Some were relatively well used; some were box fresh. Through a process of elimination, Gallagher and the rest of 809’s radar specialists realized that the problem lay within the squadron itself. The windblown, salt-sprayed deck of an aircraft carrier at sea is a particularly unforgiving environment in which to keep a finely tuned, multi-million-pound piece of electrical and mechanical engineering. In an effort to protect their jets from the elements, the Fleet Air Arm had long had a voracious appetite for WD-40. Originally formulated in the fifties and used to protect the skins of Atlas nuclear missiles from corroding in their silos, the water-displacing oil quickly became ubiquitous in the aviation industry. And in preparation for sending their new SHARs to war lashed to the exposed deck of Atlantic Conveyor, 809’s engineers had not held back in reaching for their blue and yellow aerosol cans. And it was the slathering of WD-40 that was making all the difference.
The choice facing 809 appeared to be less than ideal: corrode or be shot down.
Harrier 809: The Epic Story of How a Small Band of Heroes Won Victory in the Air Against Impossible Odds
Jonny wrote: "Fun and games with physics for the SHar guys:Some of 809’s SHARs simply appeared to be a lot bigger than others. And, as a result, the ‘D’s – as the Navy likes to call its Fighter Direction Officer..."That was very interesting, I've not heard of those issues before either - great post Jonny!
À propos the Exocet and co-operation between the French and either or both belligerents in the Falklands conflict, some of you are most likely aware of the fact that the late Harry Patterson (a.k.a. Jack Higgins) based one of his many successful thrillers largely on those events. The book, of course, was entitled simply 'Exocet'. I wouldn't say it is one of his best books, but it is far from his worst- I've read it at least three times, and will probably read it again at some point. It is certainly worth reading if you enjoy Mr. Patterson's work (or spy novels generally)...
I'd (vaguely) forgotten about that one Liam; thanks for the reminder. I enjoyed some of Jack's books; I always thought where he was writing a self contained story he was great, but when he got to series he just got formulaic. He did give us The Eagle Has Landed though...Having finished Harrier 809, I've got to apologise to the French, they did (eventually) provide Mirages and Super Etendards for dissimilar training, and of course blocked export of Exocets.
The book's a bit 'all over' and covers not only the antics of the Atlantic Conveyor air group, including a lot of the Harrier combat over the islands, some of the airborne Intel missions and the Argentine point of view as well. Best to have a grounding in the conflict first though. Its good for a 4* rating.
Jonny wrote: "I'd (vaguely) forgotten about that one Liam; thanks for the reminder. I enjoyed some of Jack's books; I always thought where he was writing a self contained story he was great, but when he got to s..."Agree with your assessment Johnny, it's a bit of a compilation of the lesser known bits of the air war and definitely assumes at least a basic knowledge of the wider events of the war.
Sounds like a good read, thanks for those updates Jonny, really appreciated :)
Always good to see a bit of initiative and inventiveness, like this one:
At the 1st Foreign Legion Cavalry, one crew which must have contained an ex-Nazi electronics engineer, actually succeeded in mounting a regular air-conditioner into an armoured car. The story came to light when the vehicle got caught in an ambush and its crew went to unusual lengths to defend it, and, when it was disabled, to retrieve it. The men were duly decorated for their bravery and then, in true Foreign Legion tradition, were sent to the stockade for "taking liberties with Government property."
Lewis Sorley's "Westmoreland, The General Who Lost Vietnam".
I interviewed Westmoreland when we both lived in Charleston, South Carolina. Interesting man.
As you can guess by the title, Sorley is not an admirer by any stretch, but backs up his arguments with first hand accounts and primary sources.One thing that surprised me was that Westmoreland never attended any of the Army's elite schools such as the AWC or CGSC nor did he push to do so. I always thought that they were the tickets needed to gain such commands as MACV or positions like Army Chief of Staff.
Westmoreland from my contact with him, seemed to be a creature of circumstance. His previous record before Vietnam was actually pretty good, but he was smart enough to make the right political connections. The other generals I interviewed each had their opinions of him, none flattering.
Ironically, I am currently working with a retired Army major general on his autobiography, now working on the Vietnam chapters. This is not a co-authorship as with Noble Warrior, which I wrote for Maj Gen James Livingston. He was a captain then a major when Westmoreland was in charge for his two tours.
Westmoreland was adept at cultivating friendships with those who could advance his career, but was also contemptuous of new ideas (Pentomic Concept and Counterinsurgency). It appears that if Vietnam was fought as a conventional war history probably would have been kinder to him.
Lawrence Myers wrote: "Westmoreland was adept at cultivating friendships with those who could advance his career, but was also contemptuous of new ideas (Pentomic Concept and Counterinsurgency). It appears that if Vietna..."I interviewed Westmoreland before he died, he had some interesting introspection indeed, and he placed a lot of blame on McNamara, as did Curtis E. leMay, who hated "Strange" McNamara. This comes out clearly in my book, Above the Reich, which has LeMay's full interview.
I just watched the doc about the Misty fast-FAC program during the Viet Nam conflict on the local PBS station- it was pretty good!
Finished Fall's Street Without Joy: The French Debacle in Indochina last night; I found it a good read, although somewhat dated and not a complete history of the war. His description of the dismemberment of Goupe Mobile 100 and his reportage pieces were the best parts, for me; and for what it's worth, his conclusions on the worth (or not) of air power and civilian engagement were spot on. I'm a bit undecided, it's a 3* at the moment but that might change.
Glad to hear you are enjoyed the book Jonny, I still rate it as a classic account of the Indochina War.
So true, AR. Fall was a very influential journalist during the time of the war. I remember that Senator Ted Kennedy talked to tell him about Vietnam in the 1960s. In part, thanks to Fall, Kennedy turned against the war.Here is Kennedy talking about Fall in his oral history:
Then one night, we got invited over by Bernard Fall, who was the French writer who had written about the fall of France as a colonial power in Asia, and was an expert on Vietnam. I ran into my friends the next day or two after, and they said they wanted to talk to me. They had been over and they had been enormously impressed by what Bernie Fall had been—Bernie Fall had been considered to be a leftie, some thought he was a communist sympathizer or whatever. The message that they had was very clear, and I had a conversation, but not the detailed conversation that they all had, but I had enough of it to verify it. What Bernard Fall did is take the places that we had gone in Vietnam and then said, "Now, who did you get briefed by?" "Well, we got briefed by the State Department and the land reclamation people and the economic development people, and they said there’s more rice being produced here than ever."
He then would show that in the Delta they produced 300,000 tons of rice before the war and it’s importing rice now. So they said, "Oh? That doesn’t really square with what we were told on this." And then Fall said, "What was the price of rice?" And they had it in their notes what the price of rice was, and he said, "Well, that’s interesting because here—" and they’d take a book from the Department of Agriculture that would be in one of their bulletins, and it would have the price of rice in one place, and the price of another place 20 miles down the road. Fall would say, "Well, what did they tell you about security?" They’d say, "Security is very good." "Well, then, why is there a 200% increase in the cost of rice from this point to this point? Don’t you think that it means that it isn’t secure?" And Fall just, just using American documents, based on what these people had told us about these particular—all of which we would write down, about what the rice was in these places and all of the land settlement in these areas—raised the serious issues and questions about honesty, truthfulness, candidness in the war.
Source:
https://millercenter.org/the-presiden...
Hey, thanx for posting that link, Bryan- I'd never read any of those transcripts before; absolutely fascinating...
Great link Bryan, thanks for sharing those details.
I better hurry up and read the book as the movie is on the way:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2qpK...
I was pleased that Adam Makos had me review the book manuscript, as I did all his works, and also speaking with Tom Hudner. He lived long enough to see a destroyer, the USS Hudner named after him.
My copy of Ronald Spector's latest book arrived today; "A Continent Erupts: Decolonization, Civil War, and Massacre in Postwar Asia, 1945-1955".
A Continent Erupts: Decolonization, Civil War, and Massacre in Postwar Asia, 1945-1955 by Ronald H. Spector
Right on, Rick! Professor Spector always has something interesting to say. Unsurprisingly, I've been eyeing that one too; hopefully the price will go down just a little bit more in the near future...
Liam wrote: "Right on, Rick! Professor Spector always has something interesting to say. Unsurprisingly, I've been eyeing that one too; hopefully the price will go down just a little bit more in the near future..."Fingers crossed Liam :)
I've decided to start reading this new book over my morning coffee. I have a few books on the Vietnam War waiting to be read so I figured I'd go to the beginning and get a good background on the events leading up to America's involvement.
The Road to Dien Bien Phu: A History of the First War for Vietnam by Christopher E. Goscha
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've decided to start reading this new book over my morning coffee. I have a few books on the Vietnam War waiting to be read so I figured I'd go to the beginning and get a good background on the ev..."Nice selection AR. Just added it to the TBR. Keep us posted.
"The Road to Dien Bien Phu: A History of the First War for Vietnam" - In the Introduction the author provides this famous quote from Ho Chi Minh in regard to a war with the French in Indochina:“It would be a war between an elephant and a tiger. If the tiger ever stands still, the elephant will crush him with his mighty tusks. But the tiger does not stand still. He lurks in the jungle by day and emerges by night. He will leap upon the back of the elephant, tearing huge chunks from his hide, and then he will leap back into the dark jungle. And slowly the elephant will bleed to death. That will be the war of Indochina.”
"The Road to Dien Bien Phu: A History of the First War for Vietnam" - How to build and train an army in the Democratic Republic of Vietnam after WW2:"The General Staff recruited Vietnamese soldiers from the defunct colonial army. As long as these men in it passed a background check and pledged loyalty to Ho's Vietnam, the Ministry of Defense welcomed them into its ranks and the best of them into its classrooms to help teach a flood of new recruits. The same was true of dozens of Japanese soldiers and a handful of their officers who crossed over to the DRV at the close of the Pacific War. The government granted them citizenship, making them 'New Vietnamese', in exchange for their help in developing and running officer-training camps. A handful of European soldiers in the French colonial army also crossed over to Ho's Vietnam (most had volunteered in the late 1930s, thinking they would be fighting the Nazis, maybe the Japanese, but not the Vietnamese). All these instructors installed discipline, taught the basics of handling arms, and drilled cadets on how to organize and carry out combat missions. A select few also advised Vo Nguyen Giap and other top-level commanders on the finer points of command, intelligence, and communications."
The Road to Dien Bien Phu: A History of the First War for Vietnam by Christopher E. Goscha
"The Road to Dien Bien Phu: A History of the First War for Vietnam" - Some interesting details on how the army of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam managed to obtain weapons from Thailand for their fight with the French:"In fact, between 1945 and 1951, overland and maritime routes originating from there channeled impressive amounts of weapons, radio equipment, paper, printers, chemicals, and medicines to lower parts of the DRV. As elsewhere in the region, the Second World War had left large amounts of arms and supplies scattered across Southeast Asia. Most of the Lend-Lease air the Americans shipped to Chiang Kai-shek's government in southwestern China had in fact gone through British India and Burma via the Indian Ocean, on the western side of mainland Southeast Asia. Much of it, however, did not make it over the Himalayan 'hump' to Chiang Kia-shek's government before the war's end. And at least some of it remained bottlenecked in norther Burma, which, of course, shares a long border with Thailand. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of surrendering Japanese troops in Burma, Thailand, southern Indochina, and Indonesia began turning their weapons over to the British in charge of their surrender and disarmament."
WWII German weapons during the Vietnam War:
https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2...
"Konfrontasi, literally translated as confrontation, had been in wide use in Indonesia and usually referred to the diametrically opposed differences between conservative traditionalism and liberal thought and cultural expression. Sukarno believed that political success could be achieved through diplomatic lobbying accompanied by economic and military threats. The word was familiar to Indonesians but far less so to foreigners, who usually regarded confrontation as a direct intervention or open hostilities."van der Bijl, Nicholas. Confrontation: The War with Indonesia, 1962–1966 (p. 50). Pen & Sword Books. Kindle Edition.
Doubledf99.99 wrote: "Started reading: Confrontation: The War with Indonesia, 1962–1966 
Nick Van Der Bijl"That should be a pretty interesting book, keep us all posted on your progress.
"The Road to Dien Bien Phu: A History of the First War for Vietnam" - The first major battle in the French-Indochina War was the Battle of Hanoi in 1946:https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/sav...
"The Road to Dien Bien Phu: A History of the First War for Vietnam" - Down in Saigon things went from bad to worse once the allies landed to take the Japanese surrender at the end of WW:"On 22-3 September, the British commander, General Douglas Gracey, freed Japanese-interned French colonial troops and authorized them to retake Saigon from officials of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. Gracey did this thinking that these troops would help him reestablish order. But things turned immediately ugly when French settlers joined colonial troops to vent months of pent-up frustration and humiliation on the 'natives'. They seized upon the Vietnamese in the streets of Saigon, hauling many off, vigilante-style, to shocked British authorities.
Vietnamese forces immediately retaliated with violent attacks on colonial troops, Allied positions, and the settler community in and around Saigon. Partisans committed a horrible massacre in the Cité Héraud quarter of Saigon, killing around a hundred French settlers and Eurasians and carrying off dozens of others. 'Saigon was in flames,' is how one Dutch war correspondent described the situation as she flew out of the city in late September. Gracey ordered the colonial troops back to their barracks and turned to his Indian Gurkas and Japanese soldiers to help him maintain order in their place."
The Massacre in the Cité Héraud:
https://indochine.uqam.ca/en/historic...
"The Road to Dien Bien Phu: A History of the First War for Vietnam" - I found this bit of information of interest:"During the Battle of Hanoi, Vietnamese authorities expanded the use of civilians for wartime purposes to include children. Nowhere was this more evident than in the creation of the 'Children's Guard' (Ve Ut). It consisted of 175 children, many of whom the famine of 1944-45 had orphaned. The army did not recruit them to fight as combatants per se. It was their knowledge of the urban topography (backstreets, alleys, markets, and bridges) that made them invaluable guides, messengers, and scouts. As a result, they were integrated into the regular army and militia's operations. Aged between eight and fourteen, a dozen or so worked for the capital regiment."
The author also makes this point:
"Of course, using children in wartime was not a 'Vietnamese' or an 'Asian' phenomenon. One has only to think of the dangers drummer boys and young messengers endured during the American Civil War (the youngest in the Union Army was nine)."
The Ve Ut (‘Children’s Guard’):
https://indochine.uqam.ca/en/componen...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""The Road to Dien Bien Phu: A History of the First War for Vietnam" - I found this bit of information of interest:"Of course, using children in wartime was not a 'Vietnamese' or an 'Asian' phenomenon."
I believe the Royal Navy continued sending boys to sea until the late fifties. You certainly see them in WW2 casualty lists.
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
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Allan Reed Millett (other topics)Allan Reed Millett (other topics)
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Geoffrey Wawro (other topics)
David W. Cameron (other topics)
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