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A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens (Group Classic Read Aug/Sep 2017)
Pink, I don't know much about Dickens but I found Bleak House long and dense. I loved it, even read it a second time but it is heavy going.I haven't read David Copperfield or Great Expectations.
Mod
I've said it already: I think this is one of the most beautiful opening for a novel, along with my favourite "It is a truth universally akwnoledged" or the starting lines of Anna Karenina “All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”
What a great discussion, good to read everyone's thoughts and insights.
Tweedledum wrote: "What a great discussion, good to read everyone's thoughts and insights."So how far through are you now Tweedledum?
When I was at school my English teacher and my Social Studies teacher coordinated so that we read A Tale of Two Cities as we studied the French Revolution and How Green Was My Valley as we studied the rise of unionization. All these years later, I still remember it.
Joan wrote: "When I was at school my English teacher and my Social Studies teacher coordinated so that we read A Tale of Two Cities as we studied the French Revolution and How Green Was My Valley as we studied ..."What a great idea! I wish my school had done that.
Jean wrote: "I think you'd enjoy any of those! I've just finished Great Expectations (again) and been astounded at how good it is :) But, objectively, it feels "gothic" and has a strong and clear ..."
I agree with Jean that any of them would be good choices. Personally, I don't like Great Expectations as much as the other 2 (both of which I gave 5*). But all 3 have more character development than this one as well as great plots.
Joan wrote: "When I was at school my English teacher and my Social Studies teacher coordinated so that we read A Tale of Two Cities as we studied the French Revolution and How Green Was My Valley as we studied ..."They sound like great teachers, who would inspire the kids :)
Joan, I agree what a great way of teaching those classes. I finished this book today. Wow, there was a lot of action in the end. Some of it seemed a little melodramatic still, but this could have been the narrator. I had mixed feelings overall, as for most of the book I didn't feel at all engaged, so no matter how much I enjoyed the last part, it wasn't entirely successful for me. I also think I preferred Hard Times.
Pink - "Wow, there was a lot of action in the end. Some of it seemed a little melodramatic still,"Oh I loved the description of the Carmagnole - seems terrifying and hard to believe of people, but it really happened. This reminded me of the mob mentality in Barnaby Rudge - or in real life even nowadays - which sometimes seems unbelievable.
The (view spoiler) made my hair stand on end too - incredibly passionate writing in the bit beginning:
"See!" cried madame, pointing with her knife. "See the old villain bound with ropes. That was well done to tie a bunch of grass upon his back. Ha, ha! That was well done. Let him eat it now!" Madame put her knife under her arm, and clapped her hands as at a play. . . Madame Defarge had but followed and turned her hand in one of the ropes with which he was tied"
Near the end I loved (view spoiler).
I think these episodes are all very melodramatic, yes - but it certainly gripped me! I had to take a breather now and then.
How do people visualise Madame Defarge? Illustrators never agree! In dramatisations she is often unkempt, but in the novel she is proud and magnificent. Beautiful? What they termed "handsome" perhaps? Young/old?
I could never get much of a handle on her friend "the Vengeance", who seems to come and go in the narrative.
I think what I have most trouble with in the ending, is not the melodrama, but the clear religious message, but this goes throughout Dickens, in his subtext. And for many people it is what "speaks" to them most clearly about Dickens's writing.
I didn't picture Madame Defarge as particularly ugly or beautiful. Definitely not unkempt, more of a strong, proud looking woman, but probably quite worn and hard looking. I have no idea if this is accurate or not! I didn't get a handle on 'the vengeance' either, so I'm glad it wasn't just me. Though like I said, I didn't really get enough of a feel for most of the characters. Some of their actions seemed to come out of nowhere, as I never felt like I knew much of their personalities. So I was somewhat surprised by the ending.
Joan:How interesting -I wonder if he got the idea from this book!
Pink wrote: "I didn't picture Madame Defarge as particularly ugly or beautiful. Definitely not unkempt, more of a strong, proud looking woman, but probably quite worn and hard looking. I have no idea if this is..."In my review (three years ago), I mentioned that I couldn't feel empathy with any of the characters, and that the characterization of Sydney Carton could have gone a little deeper.
Alice, it sounds like a had a similar reaction to you.
Mod
What a great idea! I wish my school had done that."
Great idea indeed!
Mod
I was thinking of her about the same way!
That is fascinating Joan, and I had the same thought as Leslie - the idea may have come from Dickens's novel as it is so famous. Thank you very much for sharing it with us :)I hate to be picky, but do you and the mods think that the latter part of this post might be better under spoiler tags? I'm aware that this read lasts for 2 months and it's only a quarter through the time. Although Dickens drops broad hints, as is his wont, the true significance of this is not revealed until quite late on in the book.
Just a thought - I hate to "spoil" stories for newbies :)
A few of the illustrators' ideas of Mme Defarge:
John McLenan - Harper's Weekly (August 1859)
Sol Eytinge Jr. - Diamond Edition of Dicken's works 1867
A. A. Dixon - Collins Edition 1905
Harry Furniss - Charles Dickens Library Edition 1910
John McLenan - Harper's Weekly November 1859
"Kyd"
(view spoiler)
John McLenan - Harper's Weekly November 1859
And I couldn't resist this one of her friend "The Vengeance":
" The Vengeance" - Sol Eytinge Jr. - The Diamond Edition 1867
Those illustrations are great, thanks for posting them Jean. The vengeance is hilarious!
Jean wrote: "Joan wrote: "This reminded me of Mme Defarge's knitting:That is fascinating Joan, and I ..."
Jean, I added the spoiler tags myself, the mods don't need to do it.
Thanks Joan ... hope you don't mind my asking ... I too have edited my last comment and removed the bit where I quote the beginning of your post :)
Pink wrote: "Those illustrations are great, thanks for posting them Jean. The vengeance is hilarious!"Isn't she just? LOL!
There are far more illustrators at work on this one than the previous novels which were mostly by Hablot Knight Browne "Phiz". Dickens kept Phiz on just for the monthly editions, and there were a pair per month - ie both etched on one plate.
"To maintain as wide a readership as possible, Dickens issued the weekly numbers of All the Year Round without illustration, the price of that small pulp magazine being only 2d. per issue" ...
One naturally wonders what Dickens felt had gone so wrong with the illustrations for A Tale of Two Cities that he determined to severe a collaborative relationship which had lasted twenty-three years, and which had resulted (by Albert Johannsen's calculation) in "724 drawings ... of which 567 were etched [i. e., "steels"] and 157 engraved on wood".
from "The Victorian Web"
This wasn't very much work for Hablot Knight Browne, and in addition Dickens was beginning to feel his style was old-fashioned (!) so after this one he gave him the chop. A Tale of Two Cities was the last of Dickens's books to be illustrated by Phiz. Interestingly, in 1867 he suffered a stroke which reduced his artistic output considerably, although he did not die until long after Dickens, on 12th July 1882.
I think though that this is why we have such a variety of styles as nobody knew quite how to follow him!
@Jean, no problem- I thought I had put them in but lost them in the cut and paste. I am not adept with GR!
Phew! Good :) Thank you Joan!Sometimes people have laughed at me when I put a spoiler tag in a review because "everybody knows ... (whatever it is)." But no they don't - there's a first time for us all :)
I can't tell you how many times I've been spoiled by a book, even classics, that everyone knows. Now I don't read reviews, comments or even book blurbs (which are the most infuriating) before I start a new book.
Jean wrote: "Thanks Joan ... hope you don't mind my asking ... I too have edited my last comment and removed the bit where I quote the beginning of your post :)"Oh, good thinking! I have edited my reply as well.
BTW, Jean, I just wanted to say how nice it is to have you participating :-)
Pink wrote: "I can't tell you how many times I've been spoiled by a book, even classics, that everyone knows..."Yes, me too :( I agree that blurbs are often terrible for this, particularly for understated books, where there is little action but much atmosphere such as M.R. James. Sometimes I'll write a review, being as scrupulous as I can - then turn to the book page to read others' reviews (which I usually read later, so as not to be influenced) and am appalled to find all is revealed in the actual blurb! Aaargh!
Leslie wrote: "BTW, Jean, I just wanted to say how nice it is to have you participating :-)..."Aw thank you Leslie :) When I saw you had a group read of Dickens, I just couldn't resist talking about it with my lovely friends here, and had to squeeze it in somehow! LOL!
Too true, right now I am avoiding the discussion of Proust's Prisoner & Captive because I fell behind - but if I skip housework and sleeping I'll catch up!
I'm struggling with this one. I don't know if audiobook is the best format for me and Dickens but I also struggle to read the language. I enjoy his stories and descriptions but I find the language quite a challenge to get through. I will persevere
I've wondered whether audio is the best format for Dickens as well. I do enjoy listening to Victorian classics, especially long reads, but I think I'll try reading physical copies of his books in future.
Heather wrote: "I'm struggling with this one. I don't know if audiobook is the best format for me and Dickens ..."Hi Heather :) I too struggled with this one on audio - and found it too slow. The descriptive parts near the end were far better on the page for me - on audio it just dragged. It's odd, as some others (such as David Copperfield) are a hoot to listen to! But this one on audio I was glad to reach the end of, which may surprise you. Another one which didn't "work" in that format for me was Barnaby Rudge. They're both historical, with a lot of blood and gore, but read aloud left me "meh", and in Barnaby Rudge I actually fell asleep! On the page though, I find these passages horrifically powerful and hair-raising, leaving me breathless and having to wait a while before going on.
I have to say though that audio is not my chosen option. Could you perhaps switch about, if your schedule allows it?
Pink wrote: "I've wondered whether audio is the best format for Dickens as well..."I agree! Perhaps it could be Dickens's style. Anthony Trollope I find a joy to listen to on audio, as I do Jane Austen, although some other classic authors are a bit "dense" to assimilate aurally (for me).
I'm also put in mind that those whose first language is not English say that they find Dickens's use of language more difficult to mentally translate than some classic authors. (Laura and Jenny have both said this previously, I think.) This could be another aspect of the same thing.
Long sentences lasting an entire page, and a sardonic tone, perhaps don't come across as well on audio for some of us, even with an excellent reader.
I have just started, read this years but remember little. Read the opening paragraph three times, it could be written now since it fits what I feel about my country right now.
Diane S ☔ wrote: "I have just started, read this years but remember little. Read the opening paragraph three times, it could be written now since it fits what I feel about my country right now."Often the world and our country seem like scary places, but Dickens certainly shows us that we have come a long long way. In his day, I think he was in the minority, trying to raise consciousness about inequalities and inhumanity. Imagine if he had had twitter.
Schedule may allow it but I will need to find myself a nice copy to read. Interestingly, I find the classics very difficult to read on kindle.
Heather wrote: "Interestingly, I find the classics very difficult to read on kindle."Yeah sometimes with my magnification there's only one word on a line LOL! If I have it horizontally it just "feels wrong" but I seem to have adjusted to the short lines now :)
All this discussion is reminding me I need to crack on with this! I find with Dickens that I can't have too big a gap between reading or I have to read the last few pages again to remember what was happening, and remember who the characters are!!
While it might not be my favourite for consistency throughout the book, this is one of my favourites by Dickens. I liked it much better than Pickwick Papers, for example. (view spoiler). It's true that you can't take long gaps while reading Dickens because of the characters and density of his story telling.
Plus, because these novels were usually serialized first, sometimes odd inconsistencies show up in the longer books. We noticed this in a group read of Our Mutual Friend in a different group I'm in once.
I just read The Shakespeare Riots: Revenge, Drama, and Death in Nineteenth-Century America and one of the two key actors that led certain New Yorkers to riot (not because of anything the actors did, but politics) was a long time friend of Dickens. Also mentioned in this book is the model for the acting family in Nicholas Nickelby.
Shirley wrote: "I find with Dickens that I can't have too big a gap between reading or I have to read the last few pages again to remember what was happening, and remember who the characters are!!..."Hi Shirley!
Dickens loved his mysteries so very much, and this follows through to his characters. He loved creating mysterious characters and teasing his readers by hiding their identity! He gives us ways of getting round this though. Very often he will not actually name a character until quite a long way through a book, but he refers to them in another way.
A Tale of Two Cities, being shorter, is fortunately more direct, but still we get "the stranger" (Mr Lorry) "the prisoner" (Dr Manette) and so on. I don't know how far through you are, so will just stick to those two examples! Another trick he has is to always give some little quirk about them such as a individual mannerism, or a strange fact about their face or dress, and this can alert you to who it is.
I think he invented these helpful "tricks" as his audience did have to wait so long between episodes. With this one sometimes it was a mere week, but previously it had usually been an entire month, as we know. So maybe put your radar up for the "clues" LOL! I hope this helps! It's not just the dense Victorian style, Dickens has his own ways of obfuscation ;)
Karin wrote: "one of the two key actors that led certain New Yorkers to riot (not because of anything the actors did, but politics) was a long time friend of Dickens..."I'm wondering who you mean here, as I haven't read that book. His closest acting friend was W.C. Macready, whom he admired enormously - so much so that he dedicated Nicholas Nickleby to him!
Nicholas Nickleby has a wealth of characters who are all based on Dickens's real life friends or well known celebrities of the time. In my review I identify and name six individuals! It's amazing really, and could well be more as T. D. Davenport and his nine year old prodigy of a daughter, Jean, only count for two, and as you know, "the acting family" you refer to is quite a big troupe of players, not just Vincent Crummles and the Infant prodigy.
If you don't know it, I think you would enjoy Charles Dickens and the Great Theatre of the World, by the great actor and Dickens enthusiast Simon Callow. It's a rollicking and informative read, and really brings home to the reader how Dickens's first love was the theatre, (as actor/director/writer) and how he wrote novels primarily to pay the bills! I was first alerted to this great book by lovely Gill, who is in this group :)
Hi again Karin - primarily !I'm currently halfway through a slow reread of Our Mutual Friend, and expect to finish in October. Many people find it more discursive than the middle period novels, and interestingly with less character development - rather like readers here have been saying about A Tale of Two Cities. It's episodic and in a way a throwback to The Pickwick Papers. It's his last completed novel of course, and I feel he had a sense of time slipping away, so used the sort of writing style he liked best.
And if you're into inconsistencies in great works of literature in general, you may enjoy John Sutherland's series of literary puzzles such as Is Heathcliff a murderer?: Great puzzles in nineteenth-century literature / Can Jane Eyre be happy? : more puzzles in classic fiction and Can Jane Eyre Be Happy?: More Puzzles in Classic Fiction. Great for those who enjoy teasing out a good conundrum ;)
But this is all by way of a digression ...
Jean wrote: "Hi again Karin - primarily !I'm currently halfway through a slow reread of Our Mutual Friend, and expect to finish in October. Many people find it more discursive than the middle per..."
I'll put that on my tbr!
Jean wrote: "Karin wrote: "one of the two key actors that led certain New Yorkers to riot (not because of anything the actors did, but politics) was a long time friend of Dickens..."
I'm wondering who you mean..."
Yes, he dedicated Nicholas Nickelby to McCready (sorry, I couldn't think of McCready's name as my head was swimming with names), but the Crummles were borrowed from a different family. A number of characters were drawn from real family in that novel--those delightfully benevolent brothers (also can't think of the names) who weren't actors were based on real men, too.
McCready was godfather to one of Dickens' children and vice versa, etc etc.
Karin - Vincent Crummles et al were based on T. D. Davenport et al, as I said just before my recommendation. The Cheeryble brothers, Wackford Squeers, Miss La Crevy and Mrs Nickleby were based on real people too - details in my review if you're interested, as I also mentioned. Perhaps I'd better link to it link hereOh I do know what you mean about "losing" names ... ;)
Keeping this short as it is offtopic, strictly.
I know people are all at different points, so I'll put part of this under spoilers. It's maybe halfway through the book or less - volume 2 chapter 3.The Court Scenes
I found the style of writing in the court scenes very unusual. Dire punishments and death in the most gruesome ways are described but in almost a remote fashion. Perhaps this comes about because Dickens is keen to shroud things in mystery - there's a lot of subterfuge. Sometimes it's not clear even to the characters themselves I think, on what grounds the charges have been made - yet the punishment for treason is death. And the crowds look forward to this - it is disappointing if anyone is acquitted. The chapter is even called "A Disappointment". Dickens is good at making clear his contempt for sensationalism and the attitude of the general public in the court (view spoiler)
I love the gruesome details - the herbs and vinegar spread around because of the stench. And:
"the crowd came pouring out with a vehemence that nearly took him off his legs, and a loud buzz swept into the street as if the baffled blue-flies were dispersing in search of other carrion."
Remembering Dickens's early days as a reporter, I guess the description of the proceedings in the coutroom must be fairly accurate, even though he is describing an earlier time.
We certainly get through the plot quite fast. It's very clever how Dickens manages to tell us enough to make it clear what's happening and also incur our curiosity about who someone is and what part they are going to play. We seem to have two more doppelgängers. He does love those :)
I also feel that we have quite a good balance of atmospheric description in this novel, which was rather lacking in his other "shortie", Hard Times. He does it so well that you miss it when it's not there!
Just wanted to say that I think one reason there are so many reviews of this one vs other Dickens books is that it is very often read in school (or it used to be, that may not be the case now.) Also the movie used to be very famous. I have read all of Dickens with another GR group and this is not at all my favorite. Not enough humor and the characters are mainly just types. My favorite is Carton, the underachiever. Lucie is the annoying perfect Dickens heroine. My favorite Dickens are David Copperfield, Great Expectations and Our Mutual Friend. I also think Pickwick holds up amazingly well as humor, though it's mainly a series of sketches rather than a novel.
Hi Robin :)Good to see someone posting ... it seemed to go quiet for a few days.
I think I've already talked about about the humour, which is there, but tends to get forgotten when we remember the story. This is probably because it's such a powerful story and sometimes the humour is separate - not intrinsic to it. For this reason too, it's easy to miss out when adaptations are made. Dickens has such a huge cast of characters in his books, that films often miss out whole families, or story threads.
I fear I may have been too wordy before, and "killed" the thread, so what about this early illustration by John McLenan for humour?
It is very apposite, and you can see the text it refers to, if anyone would like to remind themselves of this grotesque episode :) It may not be to everyone's taste ....
There's quite a lot of sardonic humour in the way Dickens describes things too, which of course is impossible to portray except in the text.
I think that Lucie would benefit from more development, but then this is a short novel, and presumably something had to go! In a way you can see her as a metaphor - the "golden thread" which binds everything together. Hair, threads, ropes, people enmeshed in plots, cobwebs, people imprisoned in cells or their own lives, ties both figurative and literal ...
Jean wrote: "Karin - Vincent Crummles et al were based on T. D. Davenport et al, as I said just before my recommendation. The Cheeryble brothers, Wackford Squeers, Miss La Crevy and Mrs Nickleby were based on r..."I forgot that you said all of that--sorry! I just happened to read a book this month that brought it up :).
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I'm nearing the end of this book, with just over 2 hours left to listen to. The action is certainly ramping up in pace!