The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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Our Mutual Friend
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OMF, Book 2, Chp. 04-06
Kim wrote: ".Little Dorrit, Book 2, Chapter 5:"Kim, you spoil me. :-) I should have remembered all of those Ps! So "father" was considered vulgar (unless Dickens is toying with us, and as a 21st century audience we don't recognize it), and "papa" (which I'm guessing was pronounced pa-PAH) was in vogue among the upper crust. That makes the whole "Pa" question clear as mud, doesn't it?
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Need you have put a question mark there? Or made it a question at all?"
I made it a question because I'm as yet not sure what the motive of Eugene's interest in Lizzie Hexam is. And neither does he himself seem to be sure, or he is simply giving evasive answers to Mortimer in order to cover up his mean interests. I don't know.
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Neutral. Are we done with him? I don't see him as nasty, he did return the leg, after all. And his was an honorable trade at the time.
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Somebody (sorry, I've forgotten who this was) mentioned people being bought and sold as a theme of OMF earlier in the discussion. I'm noticing this theme all over the place now, so many thanks for this! It is very prominent in these chapters, with the hideous Fledgeby trying to buy himself a bride, and also at the same time buying Riah as his front man. This relationship reminded me of Casby and Pancks in Little Dorrit, but here with the added element of Fledgeby playing on Jewish stereotypes to hide his own meanness.
Many thanks again for the illustrations and commentaries, Kim. I was a bit fed up to note that the Kindle edition which I bought mainly for the illustrations is missing some of them, including "Forming The Domestic Virtues". Really tempted to buy a 19th-century edition just to get the pictures in their full glory!
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I'm in the process of reading London: The Biography. by Peter Ackroyd and came cross a paragraph that reminded me of the rooftop garden where Jenny Wren and Lizzie find solace. I have been puzzled by what the place could mean and here is a suggestion for consideration.
We know that there is a vein of fairy motifs that run through the novel with Jenny as the key focus. Ackroyd, when discussing the very early days of London comments that in places of "prehistoric worship was a holy place ... marked by a spring, a grove and a well or ritual shaft." In this chapter we have Riah's rooftop garden that functions as a grove. The access to this place is through a narrow shaft-like staircase. To get to the grove/rooftop garden one must go up wooden steps "stooping under a low penthouse roof, to the house-top." Once there, we find a" humble creeper ... attentive faces ... another book or two ... and a common basket of fruit [with] a few boxes of humble flowers and evergreens." Jenny tells Fledgeby that "you [can] see the clouds rushing on above the narrow streets ... and you can see the golden arrows pointing at the mountains in the sky."
I think it reasonable to assume that Dickens was establishing this rooftop as some form of oasis, some form of retreat, some form of sacred grove from which Lizzie and Jenny function as still points within the hurly-burly of the novel's multiple plots of avarice and greed.
Peter - "Did anyone else feel these characters as being precursors to Oscar Wilde's style of character development?"Definitely! I feel that Eugene Wrayburn in particular could step right out of Oscar Wilde's work. His languid, indolent, lazy demeanour reminds me especially of the moral vacuum of Lord Henry Wotton in Oscar Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Gray. Everything is sacrificed for a cheap bon mot:
"'I mean so much that I - that I don't mean.'
'Don't mean?'
'So much that I only mean and shall always only mean, and nothing more, my dear Mortimer. It's the same thing.'"
Tristram wrote: "Once again, we are stuck with the question of "don't he / she" ..."Yes, it doesn't necessarily indicate that the speaker is low class. It's quite an affectation among the upper classes!
Everyman and Tristram wrote: "Is Eugene, like Steerforth, one of those friends one would better be off without?"I can't decide whether Eugene reminds me more of Steerforth or Sydney Carton! Dickens's characters with slightly dubious morals (as opposed to his outright evil caricatures) are so complex! In A Tale of Two Cities it could be said that (view spoiler) In David Copperfield though, it works very differently. (view spoiler)
It is this layered approach by Dickens which is one of his strengths, I think, and his characters such as these have more depths in the later books. But given the appalling way Eugene has now behaved, I confess I cannot see any way back to a moral compass for him!
I really like your parallel significance of the oasis, Peter, and the way in which these two characters are therefore literally rising above the ugly morass :)
Tristram at the beginning of this thread remarked "It would be interesting to discuss the question whether the introduction of Riah into the story and the way he is described is not some sort of belated amends on Dickens’s part for having used anti-Semitic stereotypes in his creation of Fagin."Riah came as a bit of a surprise, and even the way Dickens refers to him is different from his early novel Oliver Twist, which contained a very unsympathetic portrayal in Fagin. Quite often he was referred to dismissively merely as "the Jew" and didn't even merit a name! Here Riah is usually given his proper name, or called neutrally "the Jewish man" and there are many respectful references to common attributes of his race and culture. The use of his name/title is a nuance, but an important one I think.
So what of the charge of antisemitism, Dickens is often accused of? I think one of the main criticisms of Oliver Twist has always been the antisemitism shown in the author's portrayal of Fagin as a "dirty Jew".
Sadly, it is in keeping with the time. William Shakespeare had famously done this much earlier with Shylock in The Merchant of Venice in 1596, setting the play in 16th Century Venice, and it's disheartening to realise that even over 200 years later, that particular prejudice was still rife and actually ingrained into English society. With all great authors we hope that they will somehow manage to step outside the mores of their time, but maybe we expect too much.
Up to a point, Dickens did manage to do that here, much later, in Our Mutual Friend. Apparently he had expressed surprise, when the Jewish community complained about the stereotypical depiction of Fagin at the time Oliver Twist was written (1837).
In the meantime, Dickens had befriended James Davis, a Jewish man, and when he eventually came to sell his London residence, he sold the lease of Tavistock House to the Davis family, as an attempt to make restitution. "Letters of Charles Dickens 1833-1870" include this sentence in the narrative to 1860.
"This winter was the last spent at Tavistock House...He made arrangements for the sale of Tavistock House to Mr Davis, a Jewish gentleman, and he gave up possession of it in September."
There is other additional evidence of a rethink, and we have to remember that Dickens was a very young man - still only 25 - when he wrote Oliver Twist. When editing Oliver Twist for the "Charles Dickens edition" of his works, he eliminated most references to Fagin as "the Jew."
And of course, in this last completed novel, Our Mutual Friend (1864) Dickens has created Riah, a positive Jewish character. I look forward to reading more about him, and only wish the novel were more widely read.
Peter wrote: "I think it reasonable to assume that Dickens was establishing this rooftop as some form of oasis, some form of retreat, some form of sacred grove from which Lizzie and Jenny function as still points within the hurly-burly of the novel's multiple plots of avarice and greed. "Due to the odd scene in which Jenny says "Come back and be dead!" I think we could easily interpret the rooftop as being symbolic of Heaven.
Jean wrote: "Peter - "Did anyone else feel these characters as being precursors to Oscar Wilde's style of character development?"Definitely! I feel that Eugene Wrayburn in particular could step right out of [..."
I hadn't thought of it, but since you mention it, yes. I didn't like Dorian Gray and Wrayburn has that same condescending, bored-by-everything air to him that Wilde used.
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Do we? I don't.
In terms of the Jewish issue, Fagin vs. Riah, I don't think Dickens was stepping outside the mores of his time, but was perhaps reflecting a changing more that was already developing. George Eliot, for example, not many years later would present a very sympathetic view of Daniel Deronda.
IN 1850, the London Illustrated News published an article arguing that Jews should be allowed to serve in Parliament, since they were already allowed to be voters, to sit on juries judging Christians, and to serve as sheriffs and magistrates. But because of the nature of the oath required of Parliamentarians, Jews could not serve: "by the accidental wording of a form of oath not intended to exclude them, they are prevented from sitting in Parliament. "
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Thanks for the outline and the insights Jean. In a couple of weeks we will meet Riah again.
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Yes. Definitely.
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Do we? I don't.
In terms of the Jewish issue, Fagin vs. Riah, I don't think D..."
In terms of time OMF comes almost 30 years after OT. While society's attitudes often move slowly, they do move. Dickens realized he had stepped on a few toes with his portrayal of Fagin.
Jean wrote: "I can't decide whether Eugene reminds me more of Steerforth or Sydney Carton!..."Dickens may make me eat these words as we progress further into the book, but I don't have a problem with Eugene Wrayburn. Maybe it's his resemblance to Carton and my fondness for Tale unduly influencing me. Lord knows there were plenty of objectionable things about Carton, but I can't forget how he turned out. I have no reason to think that Wrayburn will redeem himself a la Sydney Carton . . . but I still like him. ;)
Mary Lou wrote: "I hadn't thought of it, but since you mention it, yes. I didn't like Dorian Gray and Wrayburn has that same condescending, bored-by-everything air to him that Wilde used..."It was Lord Henry Wotton, the more experienced friend of Dorian, whom I meant.
Peter wrote: "In a couple of weeks we will meet Riah again..."Ah, good! Oh perhaps in that case since I am couple of weeks behind I may not yet have reached an ongoing conversation ... apologies if so!
Jean wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "I hadn't thought of it, but since you mention it, yes. I didn't like Dorian Gray and Wrayburn has that same condescending, bored-by-everything air to him that Wilde used..."It wa..."
Yes - I meant I didn't like the novel, and I should have put Dorian Gray in italics or quotation marks (or underlined it, for sticklers!).
Everyman - that is interesting, and I think you're right about the changing mores with regard to Jewishness. Dickens himself though perhaps was particularly sensitive - and perhaps even defensive - because of his earlier portrayal of Fagin.As to stepping outside the mores of their time, perhaps it depends which century one is talking about. Certainly with Victorian novels, I particularly enjoy an author who seems to be free-thinking, perhaps prescient as to Scientific discoveries of possibilities, or reveals an independent, or more "progressive" outlook towards issues of society, race or gender, I'm not looking for authors who think as I do - merely ones who think outside the box. Broadening it to other centuries would need different examples, I think.
Peter - yes, I agree. Thirty years is a long time in this context.
Mary Lou - OK :)
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Ah, good! Oh perhaps in that case since I am couple of weeks behind I may not yet have reached an ongoing conversation ... apologies ..."
Actually Jean I am the guilty one. I've done a semi-spoiler since I'm looking beyond our posted material. Thankfully, nothing damaging was given away by my eagerness but I send my apologies back to you. :-)
Not at all, Peter! I hoped he would feature more :)
John wrote: "I was curious if anyone detected any particular word or image related to the Lammles? I say the name, I hear lambs. I look at the name, I see laminate. I sense something there, though unsure."
LindaH wrote: "Since Dickens has been playing with riddles and nursery rhymes, I am emboldened to play at making paper chains, specifically chains of characters.
Chain the first:
Tremlow is linked to the Veneer..."
Maybe think about it as lambs raised by wolves, it adds another dimension.
Obviously health and personal matters at the time, but the sense was he struggled with the characters and was attempting to find among them the best to build the story around.
This is good to know, for I feel his struggle in these pages...Doesn't mean to say it's not worth the trouble, at least at this point.
Peter wrote: "Cindy wrote: "My daughter has been visiting me for a couple of weeks, so I've fallen behind in my reading. I'm getting caught up now and am greatly enjoying the insight in the commentary. I really ..."I don't think you are off the mark at all. I took Georgiana's use of "ma" to be suggestive of how immature and naive she is. The word ma" to me is the word that would be used before the more formal "mother" would be used.
Peter, as I read Cupid Prompted , Georgiana's naivety quickly turned irksome for me. I thought this little lamb was being taken to slaughter, and I don't know she's going to learn the error of her way before it's too late considering Fledgby has now entered the picture.
Tristram wrote: "Chapter 5 closely belongs to the preceding Chapter, as can be seen already from the title “Mercury Prompting.” Whereas Cupid was the Roman God of Love, Mercury was, among other things, the Patron o..."I was under the impression Fledgeby was not as bad as the current lot of unsavory characters. In fact, in Cupid Prompted, Dickens writes about Mr. Lammel's friends, another colorful lot, and says
Young Fledgeby was none of these. Young Fledgeby had a peachy cheek, or a cheek compounded of the peach and the red red red wall on which it grows, and was an awkward, sandy-haired, small-eyed youth...Fledgeby underwent remarkable fluctuations of spirits, ranging along the whole scale from confidence to despair. There were times when he started, as exclaiming "By Jupiter here it is at last!" There were other times when, being equally depressed, he would be seen to shake his head, and give up hope. To see him at those periods leaning on a chimneypiece, like as on an urn containing the ashes of his ambition, with the cheek that would not sprout, upon the hand on which that cheek had forced conviction, was a distressing sight (254-255).A peachy cheek, a man of moods, I truly thought this would be considered normal behavior...Almost human in nature? To my chagrin, I later learned in Mercury Promting...
Fledgeby deserved Mr Alfred Lammle’s eulogium. He was the meanest cur existing, with a single pair of legs. And instinct (a word we all clearly understand) going largely on four legs, and reason always on two, meanness on four legs never attains the perfection of meanness on two (260)I had been quite wrong about what I had understood of the man. Fledgeby, is perhaps the worst character to be encountered, yet...He's the master manipulator it turns out, and beyond a match for the Lammle Duo. Once at Pubsey and Co.,I got an even better taste of Fledgeby while he interacted with Riah...Riah bows his head to Fledgeby and outstretches his hands as a show of respectful posturing for his employer, and Fledgeby responds by spewing some of the vilest cutting words I've ever read in a Dickens novel,
Don’t go on posturing like a Deaf and Dumb School,’ said the ingenious Fledgeby, ‘but express yourself like a Christian—or as nearly as you can (268).Does it matter that Fledgeby himself fails to express himself as Christian, or nearly as one can?
However, Dickens's depiction of the strife between Londoners and Jews has been pretty consistent in his novels, as we saw it most recently in "Great Expectations" with Mr. Jaggers and the Jewish man that approaches him on the street as Mr. Jaggers makes his way back to his office...Jaggers's treatment of the man was not the most kind, if I remember correctly?
Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Chapter 6 takes up some other characters but is also, indirectly, connected with what we have seen in the last chapter. It also proclaims to give us “A Riddle Without an Answer”. I..."I'm very curious about Eugene's intentions for Lizzie, and I have been from the start. Doesn't the fact that he's trying to help Lizzie count for something? If he just wanted to use her, why would he go through all the trouble to educate her? I understand he comes off as callous and cold, but I think he has affections for this woman and is ashamed of it because of her low status; perhaps, he's just being overtly defensive because he's guarding his vulnerability? If I'm not mistaken, she appears to enjoy being in his presence, does she not?
Mary Lou wrote: "Peter wrote: "I think it reasonable to assume that Dickens was establishing this rooftop as some form of oasis, some form of retreat, some form of sacred grove from which Lizzie and Jenny function ..."Those words rang to be infectious there for a bit. She's an overtly intuitive little woman, I do hope she's not foreshadowing to anything...It would be menacing to know that it is.
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Hi Ami
Fledgeby is a nasty bit of business. I agree. As a villain in this novel he has more depth and believable evilness than most of Dickens's earlier bad guys.
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I'm very curious about Eugene's intentions for Lizzie, and I have been from the start. Doesn't the fact that he's trying to help Lizzie count for something? "
I very much am, too. I distrust Eugene very deeply. You pointed out very nicely what a nasty piece of work Fledgeby is, but between the two, if I were a young woman I would much rather be subject to Fledgeby's control than Eugene's.
Peter wrote: "Ami wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Chapter 5 closely belongs to the preceding Chapter, as can be seen already from the title “Mercury Prompting.” Whereas Cupid was the Roman God of Love, Mercury was, amo..."He is! This shifting in his personality is becoming very apparent, I think the title for this chapter better corresponds to his mercurial temperament as well.
Everyman wrote: "Ami wrote: "I'm very curious about Eugene's intentions for Lizzie, and I have been from the start. Doesn't the fact that he's trying to help Lizzie count for something? "
I very much am, too. I d..."
There's something Fledgeby says to Lammle at breakfast that gives me pause, well, a lot of what Fledgeby says gives me pause, but it also provokes Lammle as well...
I say having my late governor and my late mother in my eye—that Georgiana don’t seem to be of the pitching-in order.I thought the question he asks is a measure of how submissive Georgiana is, she's not one who would pitch a fit to his mercurial temperament, however it may manifest itself around her. This leads me to believe Fledgeby is uber controlling, and maybe even a masochist? If he didn't kill somebody, physically, I feel strongly he would definitely be on his way in killing their spirit. What did you make of this moment?
The respected Mr Lammle was a bully, by nature and by usual practice. Perceiving, as Fledgeby’s affronts cumulated, that conciliation by no means answered the purpose here, he now directed a scowling look into Fledgeby’s small eyes for the effect of the opposite treatment. Satisfied by what he saw there, he burst into a violent passion and struck his hand upon the table, making the china ring and dance.
You are a very offensive fellow, sir, cried Mr Lammle, rising. You are a highly offensive scoundrel (265).
Obviously, I choose Eugene...:P
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Everyman wrote: "I never figured out how the Lammles expected to gain financially from taking on Georgiana. Has anybody figured that out?"My guess would be that they have an understanding with Fledgeby that once he marries Georgiana and gets control of her money, he will reimburse them for their services in helping bring the match about.
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My guess would be that they have an understanding with Fl..."
Cindy
I would agree with your idea. It would be interesting to speculate on which marriage would be the happiest, the Lammles or Fledgeby-Georgiana. My guess would be Fledgeby would be delighted with access to another source of cash while the Lammles continued to lament their lives. :-((
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If this is true, and I wonder what there is in the text that might move it from a guess to a reasonable interpretation, if I were they I wouldn't count on Fledgeby coming through with anything after he had won the prize. In fact I would expect him to stiff them completely, and would be astonished if he let loose of a single shilling he wasn't legally required to.
Everyman wrote: "I wouldn't count on Fledgeby coming through with anything after he had won the prize. In fact I would expect him to stiff them completely, and would be astonished if he let loose of a single shilling he wasn't legally required to. ..."I thought about that (and I don't have any text evidence--it's pure speculation). I don't know the answer to that, unless Lammle, being Lammle, has something over Fledgeby that he wouldn't want coming out, even after he's married money. ???
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I haven't. I just finished this week's installment and am ready to post it and I still haven't figured it out.
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As to Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice, I have always thought the play not meant to be anti-Semitic at all - if you are interested, I have written a review about it. I was quite disgusted with Christopher Marlowe's The Jew of Malta, which I thought deeply anti-Semitic and not anywhere near as deep as Shakespeare's play.
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Tristram wrote: "I did not find Dickens's treatment of Riah as a character very convincing..."I must confess that at the moment I'm finding the way Dickens describes him and his behaviour a little repetitive, but I'll wait awhile before my final thoughts.
"I have always thought the play not meant to be anti-Semitic at all" yes I agree about The Merchant of Venice. To cast the "anti-Semitic" slur would be a little shallow and not looking at the individuals, or history. I haven't read The Jew of Malta though, and am now hesitating, as I admired Dr. Faustus so much.
"I have given up reading Oscar Wilde because I dislike the whole author" Really? I think he does what he does exceptionally well, and cannot be bettered for social satires of a specific class of people in English society at a certain time. I do realise that I've narrowed the parameters quite a lot there though LOL! Looking up his particular form of witticism gave me a word which has stuck in my mind ever since - "paraprosdokian". Now why I can't remember the names of simple vegetables sometimes baffles me ...
Off now to read your review :)
Jean wrote: "paraprosdokian."What a fabulous word! Too bad I'll never remember it!
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1. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
2. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
3. The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.
4. If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.
5. We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.
6. War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
7. Knowledge is: knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
8. Evening news is where they begin with 'Good evening', and then proceed to tell you why it isn't.
9. A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops. On my desk, I have a work station.
10. How is it; one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
11. Dolphins are so smart that within a few weeks of captivity, they
can train people to stand on the very edge of the pool and throw them fish.
12. I thought I wanted a career; turns out I just wanted paychecks.
13. Whenever I fill out an application, in the part that says "In an emergency, notify:" I put "Doctor".
14. I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.
15. Behind every successful man is his woman. Behind the fall of a successful man is usually another woman.
16. You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
17. The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!
18. Hospitality: Making your guests feel like they're at home, even if you wish they were.
19. I discovered I scream the same way whether I'm about to be devoured by a great white shark or if a piece of seaweed touches my foot.
20. There's a fine line between cuddling and holding someone down so they can't get away.
21. I always take life with a grain of salt, plus a slice of lemon, and a shot of tequila.
22. When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water.
23. You're never too old to learn something stupid.
24. To be sure of hitting the target, shoot.
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That's exactly what disturbs me about Dickens's way of presenting the character of Riah to us, Jean: He constantly repeats the same things, like how humble and full of dignity the old man is. After a while, it sounds like a broken record.
The Old Curiosity Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Unabridged Devil's Dictionary (other topics)Dr. Faustus (other topics)
The Jew of Malta (other topics)
The Merchant of Venice (other topics)
Collected Classics, Volume 3: Emma, Far from the Madding Crowd, the Locked Room and Other Horror Stores, the Mill on the Floss, the Picture of Dorian Gray (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Oscar Wilde (other topics)Oscar Wilde (other topics)
William Shakespeare (other topics)
Oscar Wilde (other topics)
I'm glad you said that. I was reluctant to criticize Dickens more than I have in this I-still-don't-like-it book, but you're right. And dislikable in quite different ways.
If we divide the main characters into nice, neutral, and nasty, I think the nasty win hands down.
Nice for me includes the Boffins, Lizzie, Jennie Wren, and so far that's all.
Neutral is for characters who haven't yet declared themselves to me -- could go either way. I think of Charlie, Twemlow, the Veneerings, Lightwood, Bradley Headstone, Riah (he seems nice to the girls, but he is a money lender and pawn of Fledgeby), John Harmon et al.,
Nasty: Wrayburn, Fledgeby, the Lammeles, Wegg, Riderhood, Gaffer Hexham,
Have to stop this here, being called to dinner.