"Too Like the Lightning" Finished Reading *Spoilers*

[Dawn F]

As long as I don’t react to the writing style like a bull to a red cloth I think I’m good XD

[Jemppu]

I am immensely intrigued about possible translations of this book into languages with non-gendered pronouns. How do/would they deal?

[Sarah]

Gabi if it’s any consolation I had to read most pages twice and English is my own language. It’s not you, it’s just this book.

[CBRetriever]

Sarah wrote: "Gabi if it’s any consolation I had to read most pages twice and English is my own language. It’s not you, it’s just this book."

quite true. I think if the book had stayed with non-gendered pronouns throughout it would have been easier to read.

[Gabi]

Sarah wrote: "Gabi if it’s any consolation I had to read most pages twice and English is my own language. It’s not you, it’s just this book."

That's a relief to hear, Sarah. I think I'm now in the flow (2nd chapter). It was the beginning where there were so many words I didn't know and couldn't put into context.

[Travis]

I struggled so much with this one the first time I read it. Definitely had to keep pushing forward in the face of my utter confusion. I also turned to some cheat sheets on line to help me figure out all the moving pieces.

This time around I'm listening instead of reading, something I don't think I could have done with an initial read. And it's great to revisit all these scenes with more of an initial understanding of how the world operates.

That said, I'm surprisingly not finding myself appreciating it for anything different than the first time through. I'm mostly enjoying the same things as I did the first read (the unreliable narration, the political philosophy, the thought experiments) and also struggling with the same things (the Eurocentrism [is it coming from Mycroft or Palmer?], the total lack of interest in "regular" folk, the occasional caricature).

One question about the Renunciation Day ceremony:

(view spoiler)[I'm confused why the U.S.'s turn to religious fundamentalism and nationalism is viewed by future historians as an exception to its founding rather than an extension of it. Why do we get Jefferson's propaganda about America as an experiment in radical and open freedom rather than Douglass's reality about America as a nation founded upon slavery and unfreedom? Wouldn't Douglass's view, which seems affirmed by the Church Wars, have prevailed, while Jefferson's view would have been revealed for all of its speciousness? Again, this has me wondering whether the viewpoint--this time American exceptionalism--is coming from Mycroft or Palmer. (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

I'm in for the BR too. Just started and I'm only a little ways in. Definitely feeling like I have to work a bit to figure out what is going on, but that's okay. It's intriguing so far.

I'll share my very early impression, I was glancing through the first couple pages, not paying complete attention to things, (view spoiler)[ and my eye was caught by the Content Warning. I started reading it and was thinking, "Wow, this is the most amazing Content Warning I think I've ever read! So detailed!" and then I got to the last bit warning about Opinions some groups might not like, and I went "whoa, whoa, whoa," preparing to be very annoyed and then I realized I was actually reading the book itself. (hide spoiler)]

[Jemppu]

*hah* Meredith, you might be on to something there: (view spoiler)[the narrator does indeed seem very concerned about what the reader might or might not like or understand throughout the book. Among other assertions (hide spoiler)].

[Anthony]

I read the first chapter and I’m into it. Refreshingly weird and bold.

[Jemppu]

Good to hear! Here's hoping that impression keeps... in general ^^'

[Gabi]

Meredith wrote: "I'm in for the BR too. Just started and I'm only a little ways in. Definitely feeling like I have to work a bit to figure out what is going on, but that's okay. It's intriguing so far.

I'll share ..."

:D the content warning was great, wasn't it?

I'm getting very slowly through the book, cause I let myself be distracted right and left by other stuff. I cannot say that I know what I'm reading about yet, so the compulsion to pick it up is not strong.

[Jemppu]

Finished yesterday... and now it feels a rewind is in order.

[Gabi]

Up to chapter 5. Contemplating the questions in my mind (view spoiler)[ Do we know what Cousins are and I haven't paid attention? Why explains Mycroft that he uses "them" for Eureka and then goes in with "she"? (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

For those who've finished and want to continue on with Seven Surrenders, here's the BR thread.

[Dawn F]

Chapter four:
(view spoiler)[Night overtook me on my flight from Chile’s coast to Indonesia, or rather I overtook the night, racing in two hours so far around the planet’s curve that I half caught up with tomorrow. Tōgenkyō’s lights skitter far across the night-locked ocean, boats like sparks schooling among the lines of reflected brightness which calligraph the waves for a kilometer around the island. Here seven perfect lotus blossoms rise against the sea, glowing from within with clean, warm light like happy ghosts and dusting the ground around their roots with shimmer. Only as the car curves down to land does the eye realize each petal is a skyscraper blazing with commerce’s neon fire, while the shimmer around their roots is the pulsing streetscape of a metropolis.

My *god* that’s beautiful prose ;______; (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Dawn wrote: "Chapter four:"

I adore that passage.

Gabi wrote: "Up to chapter 5. Contemplating the questions in my mind [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[Cousins are one of the nine hives to which people belong (unless they're hiveless). (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Thanks, Travis - I read a bit on and found the list explaining stuff.

[Lesley]

Had minimal time for eye reading today, but I’m completely intrigued after just the first two chapters. Given everyone’s comments, I was expecting this to be like Ninefox Gambit in its density, but I find this much more readable and I like trying to figure out the world system.

Ch 2: (view spoiler)[ Did the plastic army men remind anyone else of The Indian in the Cupboard? It’s one of my favorite series from childhood. (hide spoiler)]

[Jemppu]

Lesley wrote: "...Ch 2: spoiler..."

My first thoughts went to Small Soldiers, and to Toy Story, of course. (Telling of my level of sophistication? *hah*)

(Oh, wait, "Indian in the Cupboard" seems to be the first on the "More Like This" -list on the "Small Soldiers" imdb page; not so far off then, after all ^^')

[Anthony]

Just finished chapter 9. (view spoiler)[ What a lovely and thoughtful encounter between Bridger and Carlyle. (hide spoiler)]

All in all, this book is teeming with fascinating ideas, and showcases a sure-handed, mysterious, and compelling approach by its author. I’ve never read anything quite like it.

[Jemppu]

Oh, chapter 9! Was completely too sweet in the most heartwarming of ways. I would have to say it's my favorite of them all: if I had to move to live in this book, this chapter is where I'd build my home <3

[Anthony]

What a lovely way to think about it!

[Jemppu]

My honest thought throughout reading it. Just felt so homely and loving and compassionate.

[Gabi]

Glad to see that most are enjoying the book. I'm still waiting to get sucked in. So far it feels too intently articificial for me.

[Jemppu]

There's a major aspect, that's bugging me about the gender thing, but on a whole it's very inventive and intriguing.

(And the 'faulty narrator' is compelling).

[Gabi]

I very much like the idea of the non-geographical aspect. The gender aspect is something that just a lot of authors jump onto at the moment, so it doesn't bother me.

But the overall execution of the story just leaves me cold.

[Chris]

Gabi wrote: "So far it feels too intently articificial for me."

"Intently artificial" is a great description.

[Lesley]

Jemppu wrote: "There's a major aspect, that's bugging me about the gender thing"

I’m curious what’s bugging you. What’s bugging me: (view spoiler)[ It seems overly explanatory when it comes to the gendered or non-gendered pronouns. They use “they” initially and in dialogue, but based on stereotypical female/male character traits, they switch to she/he pretty fast in exposition, which seems odd if they really are supposed to be gender neutral. Just embodying feminine or masculine characteristics shouldn’t matter and change people’s pronouns. (hide spoiler)]

Gabi, I like the term “intently artificial” as well. I guess I don’t mind much because (view spoiler)[I think they’re doing a decent job of explaining why these changes came to be. I just love the idea of no more nation states, the re-engineered criminal justice system and the reimagined family unit. It’s making my little nerdy sociologist heart jump for joy. I’m also enjoying the meta experience of a narrator who is writing for a future an audience in the future beyond the distant future in which the story takes place. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

The gender thing makes sense later, sort of.

[Gabi]

@Lesley: I like the aspects you mentioned as well, but couldn't elaborate on them, cause I can't use the tags at the moment. So I'm simply nodding at your comment. :D

[Anthony]

Just finished Chapter the Twentieth. (view spoiler)[ I had been anticipating learning about the crime(s) Mycroft had committed that led to their being a servicer, and this method of revelation made it land all the more powerfully. (hide spoiler)]

[Jemppu]

Yup. It was quite vivid.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I know many of us are solidly in the story now, so a few questions! Please use spoiler tags as necessary.

What do you think of the language choices?
What do you think about the gender usage?
What do you think about the Hives?
Do you trust Mycroft?
Is this SF or F?

[Anthony]

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As I’m nearing the end, the reasons for being regarding Mycroft’s relationship to 18th century literature/modes of thought are coming clearer, which is fun to see. Throughout, though, I have had great admiration for how thoroughly and convincingly Ada Palmer’s approach is baked into the novel.

<>

It’s been entertaining to parse Mycroft’s use of gendered language to describe people, since very often he’s telling on himself in all sorts of ways when he settles on a pronoun, and especially when he explains why he’s settling on a pronoun.

<>

I love the idea of choosing your alliance/citizenship. I have long felt that the arbitrary nature of borders causes real harm and hardship for many people in our world, and that it would be amazing if there were some method of choosing where one could belong. Oh the other hand, no system is perfect, and clearly there are some problematic aspects to the Hives as well.

<>

Hmmmm. Sort of...? I trust that Mycroft is pulled in different directions in a sincere manner.

<>

SF but it also doesn’t really matter to me one way or the other.

It’s certainly one of the most unusual, inventive novels I’ve ever read. I’m deeply impressed and I’m enjoying the hell out of it.

(If you think I need spoiler tags on anything please let me know.)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I think you walked the line finely enough, Anthony! :)

[Anthony]

*woot!*

[Travis]

Here's what I can't figure out about gender in the novel (no real spoilers, but just in case):

(view spoiler)[Is gender one of the ways that Palmer is playing with the scope of capital "E" Enlightenment thinking? Like how far can we free ourselves from the oppressions of tradition? And to what degree do these freedoms become new forms of oppression? If yes, then she's placing gender on a parallel with religion but not race. Is that right?

Or is Palmer using gender in the novel to comment on the increase in people identifying as nonbinary now? If so, then what sort of argument is she making? (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Also a gripe about how the novel represents race:

(view spoiler)[Maybe because gender is off limits, race seems absolutely central to how Mycroft assesses people. And he (Palmer too?) does so in ways that lean into racial caricature and, potentially, hierarchy: i.e. the Censor's blackness makes them physically imposing while Ganymede's whiteness/blondness makes them the most beautiful person in the world. Why too is the dominant philosophy of this world so rooted in Western Europe with a little bit of Asian religion and philosophy thrown in around the edges? Why aren't Sensayer universities teaching indigenous philosophies, African philosophies, etc? (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Travis wrote: "Here's what I can't figure out about gender in the novel (no real spoilers, but just in case:

[spoiler removed]."

Interesting! (view spoiler)[ My take on gender in this book is more about the question of "what is gender?" There are several prevailing theories--it's the expression of one's ability to mate; it's the expression of higher levels of testosterone or estrogen; it's purely a social construct used to make language and romantic interests easier; it's about brain chemistry/medical diagnosis; it's about performance, etc.

I believe, though I have issues with this as well, that Palmer is commenting on the sort of absurd conclusion of early 20teens' feminism which started portraying gendering someone as a form of violence, and a response to the "did you just assume my gender" not-so-funny "joke" that became popular right before she published.

A lot of feminists (and I say this just to back up my own impression, not to tell you something I know most or all of you already know), especially in response to TERFs initially tried to preach (and I do use this word a bit tongue in cheek) that gender is simply a social construct, and therefore can be claimed by anyone. But we know it's not quite that because if it was just a social construct like being a fan of a sports team, the very real pain people experience regarding their identity, and the work they do to affirm their true identity would be either much easier, or non-existent.

So I don't think it's necessarily the same as religion so much as it is an exploration of mitigating violence to the point that our "normal" is subversive. And then, further, if you were making a defintion up for gender whole cloth, what would you use to define it? What would be the hallmark of femininity or masculinity? Would you prefer gender to match sex? To match personality? Performance?Which theory gets to decide gender? Mycroft uses all of them throughout the book. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I do fully agree with you about race, Travis. Also add in political and economic theories, this still codes really heavily Euro/American, and, interestingly, (view spoiler)[not at all Greek, which is what Mycroft considers his nation strat. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

Re race & gender (view spoiler)[ so much of the point of view of this novel is filtered through Mycroft’s (insane?) modes of thought. So I’m not sure it’s fair to implicate Palmer in this. I could be wrong, but I think she’s using Mycroft as an avenue to explore how fixations on gender roles and gender stereotypes are inherently silly at best, and can lead to degradation and violence at worst. For reasons that still aren’t totally clear, Mycroft is obsessed with 18th Century Enlightenment history and modes of thought, which is Eurocentric, which makes the lens through which he expresses ideas of beauty and power inherently Eurocentric. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Allison wrote: "Travis wrote: "Here's what I can't figure out about gender in the novel (no real spoilers, but just in case:

[spoiler removed]."

Interesting! My take on gender in this book is more about the que..."

Such a useful set of thoughts. I fully agree. And it's why, for me, the world building seems a bit odd. If I understand the history right, after the Church War, it's gender and religion that get singled out for censorship. But I'm not sure the novel ever provides an argument for why those two seem exceptionally dangerous or oppressive and, hence, especially necessary to suppress.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Do you see gender as censored? Or just outmoded? The way people respond when Mycroft slips on gender doesn't seem to be full condemnation so much as confusion, like we would feel if someone said "thee" or "thou" seriously in conversation. It's not censored, just old and confusing--am I supposed to feel slighted that they're using the familiar "you" with me when they call me thou? Do they know what they're saying? Do I know what they're saying? Why can't we just use modern terms?

[Dawn F]

Anthony wrote: "It’s been entertaining to parse Mycroft’s use of gendered language to describe people, since very often he’s telling on himself in all sorts of ways when he settles on a pronoun, and especially when he explains why he’s settling on a pronoun."

Haha yes!! I was thinking in way of response to the question that all Mycroft's justifications for using this gender or that are laughably crappy and yet he remains entirely convinced of his own reasoning. It's almost satirical! XD

[Travis]

I took it to be culturally censored, with support of various state systems, such that Mycroft's gendered language constituted more than an anachronism or even a faux pas. Hence the gender play (view spoiler)[at Madame's (hide spoiler)] wasn't just historical reenactment but active transgression of an imposed system. At least that's how I read it.

[Travis]

Although it seems like there're laws in place banning certain practices when it comes to discussing religion. I don't think I noticed similar laws in place for banning gender specificity. Or were there?

[Anthony]

I haven’t read anything that indicated there are laws regarding gender identification. It’s more about custom, as far as I can tell, and taboo. And clearly Mycroft isn’t all that concerned with following certain customs...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Not that I can recall? It can still be systemic without being codified, though, so I don't think you're necessarily wrong. (view spoiler)[ But I saw it more as a kink...like admitting you hire a professional dom(me) or are an actor in adult films. Totally legal, but society isn't sure what to do about the normalization of what we do in the bedroom (or dungeon, as the case may be!) (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Taboo. That might be a good word for it, Anthony! Although then I think that is something generally enforced socially if not legally, no?

[Anthony]

Just finished Chapter the Thirtieth. (view spoiler)[ I think it’s wickedly funny that this future world’s most powerful people are entwined in a willfully transgressive sex cult. (hide spoiler)]