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Sons and Lovers
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Yeah, we've even had sex scenes here and no loins! Just dark burning eyes! LolI bet there'll be some loins with Clara. So far she has arms. And neck. Did you notice how Paul contrasts their arms? Clara - beautiful strong arms, Miriam - brown-skinned, pitiful, resigned arms. Even Miriam who cares little for the body is fascinated by the movement of Paul's arm and likes to feel it against her back. I think arms might be the new loins.
And I don't think Paul left Miriam once he "got what he wanted". He's sensitive enough to want her to enjoy sex too. And with all that spirituality they've got going, he was probably hoping for a holy union of the flesh. So he basically didn't get what he wanted. He got a sacrifice that made him feel awful. :-/
Oh yes the arms! I've noticed them! I think you're right that Paul wanted more of a response from Miriam, if she'd have enjoyed their union he'd probably have married her. Yet she didn't seem able to do that, fulfilling her own fears of him leaving. Although when I say it like that it sounds like he's left her because she wasn't good enough in bed. There's definitely more to it with these two. I wonder whether they'll end up together, I'm beginning to think maybe not.
Yes, I also wonder if it might not be best for both of them if they don't end up together!
It's a new week so I have forged ahead with another chapter. There are no loins, but I'm reasonably certain there's sex. At least on one occasion, perhaps as many as three. It's very fade to black. Paul is very modern in his attitude at times. Clara's husband has a new woman, so why shouldn't Clara get to move on as well. But he refuses to see that anyone's opinion other than his own can matter, so he doesn't comprehend that Clara is actually running a risk. She gives him more than he realises, and he gets angry because she worries and wants to catch the last train home... And he thinks Miriam shouldn't mind his relationship with Clara and vice versa, because he and Miriam are just friends and he and Clara are just friends with benefits. Or something. I think maybe his attitude is not so much modern as simply self-centred and self-gratifying.
Clara's mother is a real guardian of morality! Lol
If Paul acts like a teenager, Mrs. Radford certainly treats her (30 year married and separated) daughter like one. Or maybe she just seeks to guard her daughter's reputation.
Oh I was thinking of reading the next chapter myself, as I seem to be on a roll with it at the moment. I'll catch up tomorrow :)
I finally finished this chapter - All the women seem aware of Clara's difficult position, Mrs Morel and Miriam even brought this up to Paul, trying to make him consider her, but he's too wrapped up in his own passion.
He seems completely unaware of how Miriam and Clara might feel about one another, that either could have reason to be jealous, or feel betrayed. Paul has a glimmer of guilt when he overhears Clara and his Mother gossiping about Miriam, but the sight of Clara's hands/arms/breasts/eyes soon distracts him again.
Yes I think we've had a couple of fumbles in the bushes, or romps in the wilderness. I really enjoy Lawrence's descriptions of nature and all the flowers! I wonder if he shared this passion with his Mother. Then the episode at the house with Clara naked by the fire, but she didn't return to the bedroom with him, so maybe they did it, maybe not. I'm not surprised that Mrs Radford behaved how she did. Though her daughter is older, she can't approve of her bringing another man home while she is still married.
I was surprised by Mrs Morel's assessment after meeting Clara. They got along fabulously, ripped into poor Miriam, then she turned round and told Paul that he'd tire of her. Why do you think she said this? I'm not sure if she's dismissive of all women, or if she knows that Clara is just a passion for him, without deep feeling. Though I can't imagine her preferring Miriam.
Oh and poor Miriam, thinking that Paul needs to expend his passion with Clara, but confident that he'll return! Perhaps she's right.
I got the sense that Mrs Morel liked Clara, and liked her a bit extra for not being Miriam. LolWhen she thinks Paul will tire of Clara I think that says more about Paul than Clara. But Mrs Morel is hard to read, so I'm not sure.
And yes, poor Miriam. Maybe Paul will return to her after he gets Clara out of his system, but Miriam wants him to get everything physical out of his system. And that's not likely to happen.
I read the next chapter, Baxter Dawes. There was quite a lot of action and some clarification over Paul and Mrs Morel's feelings about his love life. I won't comment more until you've read it.
Ooh, I'll make sure to read it this weekend.
I've finished! I couldn't wait to find out what happened in the last two chapters, as I was so sucked into the story. I have lots of thoughts and I've read some interesting notes too, which I'll link later. I'm looking forward to seeing what you make of Baxter Dawes.
Is that all we have left?! I'll try to get reading. I'm on holiday, but it's an "activities with the kids" sort of holiday more than a "sit and read" holiday.
That's fine, no hurry. The Baxter Dawes chapter was quite long, but a lot happens so it goes quickly. After that there's just two more, the last of which is much shorter. My edition had another chapter called Portrait of Miriam at the end, but this wasn't part of the book. It made very interesting reading though, so it's worth finding online if your copy doesn't have it.
Enjoy your holiday with the kids and catch up when you can. I was going to wait until next week for the last two chapters, but I was so wrapped up in the story I thought I may as well get it finished.
Whew. Yes, that's some chapter! So much going on!I really get the sense that Paul has been somewhat ruined by his mother, so that he can't fully commit to a woman. Mrs Morel seems to understand a lot, but does she realise that she is part of the problem? It's understandable that Clara isn't willing to get a divorce and take her chances on him. I was surprised that Clara's mother has given in and even goes away with them on weekends sometimes!
I wonder about Dawes too. Is it just hurt pride? I notice that he hasn't asked for a divorce either.
Mrs Morel's health problems... She has a lump the size of two fists and the doctors want to "wait and see" if it's a tumour?!? That must be code for "she's dying but let's not upset anyone by telling them". And I'm even managing to feel a bit sorry for Mr Morel here. So lost and helpless.
Yes so much happened! I agree, Paul has been ruined by Mrs Morel, just as William was being before, although I think she got worse after his death. There was no chance for poor Miriam from the start with her, and Clara isn't really a threat because she's already married to someone else. I felt sorry for Mr Morel too. Since the early chapters with his drinking and violence, he's been cast out really. The scene after William died and now having to face Mrs Morel's illness show him in quite a pitiful state, he doesn't know how to act or have anyone to turn to. Not his wife or children. Funny how my feelings have changed for him, but I don't think any of the characters are all good/ bad, they're much more complex. Though don't get me started on Mrs Morel's complexities! Poor D H Lawrence!
Yes, I'm eager to see how this ends now, and then look up how much of it was autobiographical and how much was poetic license! You won't have to wait long for me to finish the remaining chapters!
Oh, the penultimate chapter is heartbreaking! And again there is so much going on. I expected the chapter to end after the funeral, but it just goes on. Of course, it's called "The Release" and there's more than one release taking place. But it's such a strange change in emotions. All that despair and then at the end a scene of hope. Battered hope, but hope nonetheless. Not for the Morels though. Only one short chapter to go.
Yes heartbreaking! I was surprised to read about Paul's hand in his Mother's death as well. I'd like to think people don't suffer such long drawn out deaths nowadays, but that's not true. Paul seems conpletely lost right now. He's so shut off from his Father, barely has a relationship with his siblings and doesn't even have Clara or Miriam to turn to for comfort, as neither give him what he needs. Though this is his own fault, being stifled by Mrs Morel, so he's never really been able to love anyone else.
There's nothing called Portrait of Miriam in my entire supposedly Complete Works of D. H. Lawrence, so I'll have to track that down elsewhere. But there is a biography written by his wife, Frieda (Freiin von Richthofen) Lawrence. They eloped together while she was married, with three children whom she left behind, to a language professor Lawrence had studied under!So as far as autobiographical elements go, it seems Miriam's hope at the end was futile. That was such a frustrating meeting! She wants him to hand himself to her, and he wants her to claim him. And they're both just sitting there limply, so nothing happens. Except that Paul at least decides not to self-destruct even though he doesn't have a woman in his life to tend to his emotional deficiencies. And that's actually quite a healthy sign!
I know a bit about Lawrence's elopement and relationship with Frieda, though I haven't read her biography. Maybe it's one for later?! I'll link the Guardian article that I enjoyed, which details Lawrence's previous relationships, who were the basis of Miriam and Clara. Spoiler alert, 'Miriam' was none too pleased about her depiction and never spoke to Lawrence again!
It's quite long, but worth it. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.th...
I've also taken a look for the Portrait of Miriam text, the best I can find is an edited version, with some parts cut for copyright, but it has most of the text if you still want to take a look. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=P...
Oh, excellent. Thank you. I'll probably get around to Frieda's biography at some point, and I'll let you know what it's like. But I wonder if I might want to try The Rainbow and Women in Love first, as I see one of the women there is modelled on Frieda. Yes, now that I've finally read one I genuinely liked, I'm encouraged to read more of his work. lol
I'm glad I didn't give up without even trying this one. (And by the way, since you have a paper edition, does this count as a Classic Over 500 pages?)
I've read the Portrait of Miriam now. Shame there were pages missing, but what was there was really interesting. I think I did accept far too much of Paul's view/presentation of Miriam. Although not all of it, as it was clear that he was utterly damaged. And I didn't realise Clara was a mother substitute, but it seems fairly obvious once pointed out. I saw her more as a Miriam substitute. I guess she was both.
Yes, this is definitely over 500 pages, it's almost 700 in my edition. I'm with you on wanting to read The Rainbow and Women in Love before a biography of Lawrence. There's a couple I like the look of aside from Freida's.
I'm glad you enjoyed this one. me too, but then I loved Lady Chatterley as well. I found them interesting to compare, especially in how the men and women relate to one another. Did you read the article that mentioned Mellors being almost an anamgram of Morel? I hadn't thought of that before, but I can see similarities in those characters.
The more I think about Miriam, the more I think Paul wronged her. Though he suffered for this himself as well. They both wanted a meeting of minds AND a physical relationship, but they were incapable of conveying this properly to one another. Miriam was like a child in many ways, wanting Paul to show her what to do and thriving on his every word, but he was so muddled and conflicted because of his Mother. He made excuses and blamed Miriam for failing in their moments of passion and for wanting too much of his soul, when really this was his Mother's view. Perhaps they'd have had a chance of being happy without Mrs Morel. Though I'm quite glad that they didn't end up together.
Okay, just thought I'd share that somehow I've managed to purchase The Rainbow, Women in Love and D. H. Lawrence: The Life of an Outsider, all since our buddy read!
Haha! We might as well form a D.H. Lawrence Buddies Club. =D
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
Books mentioned in this topic
The Rainbow (other topics)Women in Love (other topics)
D H Lawrence: The Life Of An Outsider (other topics)
I think asexual could fit the bill for Miriam, as she doesn't seem to have a sex drive, but I also think she's just been scared too much by her mother and so thinks of their love as spiritual and above the physical. I thought the line about what her Mother said was very telling -
"But all my life. -Mother said to me - 'there is one thing in marriage that is always dreadful, but you have to bear it'. And I believed it."
No wonder the poor girl was so afraid of actually doing anything. What an awful way to think and her poor Mother with seven children!
I also felt sorry for Miriam, as she feared that once their relationship became physical, she'd lose Paul and she was right! It almost makes me think she should have held out for marriage. It seemed a typically old fashioned way of thinking, not to give the men what they want, or they'll quickly lose interest. Although I do think there's more to it with these two. Paul's about as repressed as she is, but at least he's finally decided to act. If only Miriam enjoyed it!
I'm intrigued by the title of the next chapter - Passion - is it time for loins?