Chapter 7-12

[Heidi]

This is the thread for comments on Chapter 7-12.

[Heidi]

I have finished reading chapters 7-10. I hope to finish 11 and 12 tonight or tomorrow. But honestly, the story continues to be so dismal, I have to really force myself to pick it up and keep reading! I wish I had a better report but I'm not just not enjoying it. Everyone is so awful: Mim, Androg, Turin, Gwindor, Finduilas ... I mean none of them have any overarching qualities to contribute to a better outcome. Mim is jealous of Beleg, Androg is jealous of Mim, Gwindor is jealous of Turin, and Finduilas is bound by unreciprocated love for Turin.

Some people hate love triangles. I just can't stand unrequited love; it is so false and destructive. Okay that's my rant! And Turin just won't listen to anyone or anything or consider anyone or anything in his decision making.

It was sad that Mim's son died, actually, it was ridiculous. I say that because it just drags a story in a downward spiral to even a farther downward spiral. It's like when Tolkien was writing this he was in a totally misanthropic phase in his life! Like he just hated humanity and there was nothing MEN or DWARVES, or ELVES could do that was noble, heroic, considerate of a better future. The only one who could win was MORGOTH with all his lies and sneaking around and ill will. Great fun story to read. NOT! Evil prevails:( Sigh.

Then, the only truly heroic character Beleg gets killed. So much of Turin's motives are glossed over, I guess we're just supposed to attribute it all to Morgoth's curse, but honestly, I think that's lame. If you're cursed and you can't overcome it, what is the point of having a life? I mean it makes no sense to me that the Elves forged Anglachel anew, and that Turin carried it after what happened with Beleg! They should have smelted the evil weapon once and for all. Made a lump of it and buried it forever!

[Heidi]

Yay! I finished chapters 11 and 12 and before the month ended. Feels like quite an accomplishment, lol.

Okay, so more on Turin and fear and not showing fear... ( message 4, paras 7-8 on this thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...) the elves keep saying they should keep in secret, hide themselves etc. Turin says NO! Is it because he can't bear to appear afraid? Because of that he leads the Orcs and Glaurung straight to Nargothrond ... which is Morgoth's main M.O. i.e. use spies and attacks to locate the enemies' stronghold. (He does this over and over again, ad nauseum. No, I didn't just say ad nauseam, did I?!) Since Turin falls straight into this plan repeatedly, he simply doesn't come across very well.

In TS I actually liked Turin and had more of a feeling that he was, perhaps, falsely maligned and that Glaurung's accusations of him were false in that they were the most negative spin on any- and everything that happened in Turin's life, and everything he did. IN THIS VERSION, I was actually liking Glaurung and agreeing with his accusations of Turin! One of the few times I smiled in these whole six chapters, perhaps the only time! was here:

"... and being thus secure he [Glaurung] gathered all the hoard and riches of Felagund and heaped them, and lay upon them in the innermost hall, and rested a while."

Dragons will be dragons I suppose:D

Sador sure came to a thankless end. Another mark against Turin.

Lady Aerin came out strong in the way of strength not being rash anger ... which it really isn't! So she was another character I appreciated.

Very glad to have completed this. It looks like next month's read, though also 6 chapters, will be shorter in length.

Then in September we start The Hobbit! Very excited about that!!!!!

[Rachmi]

I have to force myself to read it too! In a way it's as hard as TS everytime I want to start it, not in a sense that it has the same difficulty as reading TS but in the way it's written. It doesn't as engaging as I thought. In some part, TS is even more engaging for me.

Lol to your hate of unrequited love. I do hate love triangle but unrequited love never bother me :D I don't like how Finduilas treated Gwindor though. And a bit sorry for him for his unrequited love of Finduilas.

The only one who could win was MORGOTH with all his lies and sneaking around and ill will. Great fun story to read. NOT! Evil prevails:( Sigh.

Morgoth all the way!!! Hahaha it just shows how great Tolkien writing the bad guy. As much as it depressed me reading this book, what with all those hate, jealousy and such I cannot ignore that Morgoth is truly evil which is what I love.

The only thing I regret is Beleg. I don't want him to die (his death really surprised me and took me a while to take when I first read it in TS) or if he has to die, I want him to have a different death. But then again, with the way his death it's just ironic, I think.

As about the cursed. I do think the way you think. But on a side note I also think whether the cursed can be broken? This book reminds me of Fëanor and his cursed. They all cannot break the curse and basically doom from the start but they try anyway, I guess that what's it all about? That we have to always try nonetheless. It's just both of family are also proud and arrogant. And are driven by not to show their fear (just like you said in chapter 1-6 thread), they caused so much sadness not only for themselves but also for people around them.

Is it because he can't bear to appear afraid? It can be and makes sense in my opinion, but I always thought that it's because he's so proud of himself and an arrogant man he doesn't let others tell him anything and do what he wants to do.

I never like Túrin, not in TS not in here hahaha. I do too agree with Glaurung being right about him. I think I wrote about it too in our TS discussion thread.

My notes after reading chapter 7-12:
In chapter 7 Mîm said [...] 'And we do not teach Men to find them, for Men are greedy and thriftless, and would not spare till all the plants had perished; [...]'

It looks like both Mîm (a dwarf) and Elrond (an Elf) in LoTR (at least in the movie, I don't remember his version from the book) have similar thought about Men. Although both are for different context but it's clear both races lose faith in humanity hahaha. Men is just one greedy race.

[Joshua]

Hello!

Okay so I read the Children of Hurin last year and right now I'm reading the new full story of Beren and Luthien that was published a few months ago. BUT, I loved CoH.

Whereabouts are you?? I know you said the chapter names but a refresher from you guys would be great. I really want to be able to participate in the discussions more than I have.

[Rachmi]

Joshua wrote: "Hello!

Okay so I read the Children of Hurin last year and right now I'm reading the new full story of Beren and Luthien that was published a few months ago. BUT, I loved CoH.

Whereabouts are you?..."

Hi Joshua!
I've finished it last week. So I'm ready with everything you want tp discuss. I don't know about Heidi though. Maybe she has finished too but don't have time to discuss it with us.

What do you like about CoH?

And Beren and Luthien! I want to read it too but I heard it's more a documentary (like History of Middle-earth) than a full novel one. Is it true? I don't think I want to read it now, if it's a documentary. I have one of the HoME and I haven't finished it yet even after all these years :)

[Heidi]

Rachmi wrote: "I have to force myself to read it too! In a way it's as hard as TS everytime I want to start it, not in a sense that it has the same difficulty as reading TS but in the way it's written. It doesn't..."

THIS^^^^ I felt exactly the same way.

So you cheer Morgoth, because he is one bad guy! But really, in this book Tolkien just draws human-men-mortals whatever you want to call them as completely irredeemable. That is not even the truth. That is why I don't like this story as it is told in novel form. It's like an anarchist's view of the world. Everything sucks so let's just destroy it all. There are always DEEPER TRUTHS. Do you remember in the movie, The Two Towers I think, when the butterfly comes to Gandalf? That is what the truth is to me. The truth is like a light that always leads us from darkness. There is always a path out of the darkness if we listen with our inner ears and look with our inner eyes. That is why I don't like this book. To have Morgoth triumph again and again, to me is just malicious propaganda to steal hope from whoever reads it. I KNOW. Harsh words for Tolkien. He must have been in some really dark place himself when he wrote this. Or I don't know what. The Brits paid him to do some propaganda or something, lol!

I too hate Beleg's death. Why? Because it is completely meaningless. Turin takes nothing from it. That is another reason I hate this story. If anyone you ever truly love dies, you will be changed. PERIOD. That is why I think this particular story is so FALSE from beginning to end and why it is such a burden to read it. It is just lies. SORRY! But I guess you can tell, I do not like this story, lol!

Yes, Rachmi, PRIDE & ARROGANCE. I guess not showing fear, or not acknowledging fear, etc. is kind of behavior driven by pride?

Yes, after we read Chapter 21 in TS, I was like I will just have to agree to disagree with Rachmi, because I think Turin is more misunderstood than bad, evil, irredeemable, or whatever. But after reading CoH, I'm like Turin ... bleych!

And, yes, Tolkien uses his other races—elves and dwarves—to berate humanity:)

Joshua, I am honestly glad you like CoH. I'm glad somebody did. Maybe you can share why you like it so I can see it—maybe—from another perspective.

Umm ... honestly, after my experience with CoH it will be a long time, if ever, that I pick up anything besides The Hobbit or LotR.

[Rachmi]

I can see your point of view and understand why you don't like CoH. So yeah I guess we agree to disagree :D

I don't love CoH, but I do like it. I like that Tolkien can make a story that is so gloomy, depressing and there's no hope in it, to me it's quite a different reading. I honestly never read any book that's everything just hopeless for the characters. So it's like one of a kind reading hahaha.

And if I'm not wrong, Tolkien wrote CoH when he was still in the army, in WWI when he had to face the fact that most of his friends died because of it. So I guess the cruelty of war and the death of his friends effected him so much he wrote this hopeless story.

[Heidi]

Rachmi wrote: "And if I'm not wrong, Tolkien wrote CoH when he was still in the army, in WWI when he had to face the fact that most of his friends died because of it. So I guess the cruelty of war and the death of his friends effected him so much he wrote this hopeless story...."

Wow. That is a great insight. I can understand if Tolkien wrote CoH in that frame of mind. It really makes a lot of sense. Maybe it also makes a lot of sense why he never went back and finished it ... There is just so much that could have been reshaped to make it stunning. Like you wouldn't have had to take anything out of it, it just could have been infused with more natural beauty (like The Silmarillion, you know with the trees, and sun, and the moon, and the music...) and perhaps Turin's struggle with the curse rather than slavish acquiescence.

Oh, well. Being as Tolkien was mortal not elf, he had to move on before these works were done!