Preface, Introduction, Chapter 1 - 6

[Rachmi]

This is for our discussion of chapter 1 - 6, including the foreword and preface

[Heidi]

I really enjoyed reading the Preface, it's a great overview of Tolkien's work.

The Introduction is an attempt at providing an overview of where The Children of Hurin fits within The Silmarillion, and I found it quite difficult to follow. If you've read TS, I'd recommend skipping it. If you haven't read TS, I still might recommend skipping it, because I'm not sure it's necessary.

For me, the first 3 chapters were also a struggle. It's more fighting and wars and that was the part I found repetitive in TS.

Starting in chapter 4, there were some interesting passages. Turin's story is more filled out, his childhood, and time in Doriath as Thingol's step-son. Through chapter 6, Turin's time spent with outlaws is also filled out.

This isn't a happy story. There's really nothing happy about it. I found the passages about Sador/Labradol, Nella, and Beleg the most enjoyable.

The part of the story about Saeros was interesting, in that he was the one who provoked Turin and in most ways he was successful in furthering Morgoth's curse, i.e. he was a "bad/wicked" light elf!

I am going to keep reading ...

[Rachmi]

Agree with you that first three chapters were repetitive. I especially didn't feel anything in chapter 2. I'm not sure whether it's because I've read about it in TS or because it didn't as descriptive as in TS. I remember when I first read Nirnaeth Arnoediad it was so sad and eerie I have to take a break before continue reading it. But here in CoH I barely feel anything.

I do find the introduction is useful though. As you said it's providing an overview of where The Children of Hurin fits within The Silmarillion, I think it's interesting to read. And a bit a reminder as I already forget one or two things in TS.

And yes, Sador/Labradol and Nella are the most enjoyable for me too. Beleg, not so much as I already know what will happen to him yet I don't want him to have the same ending as in TS hahaha.

I'm curious of why Turin didn't remember Nella. Will there be reason for it or is it because he met Nella when he was a child and as an adult he already forget her?

Saeros part fits with TS perfectly, I think.

Things that aren't clear enough for me after 6 chapters:

In chapter 1:
'Has it always been so? Or do we suffer
some curse of the wicked King, perhaps, like the Evil Breath?'
Who is this wicked King? is it Morgoth? and what or who is Evil Breath? could it be Glaurung or something else?

In chapter 4:
I take that the cover of CoH is Turin wearing Helm of Haldor. And as it's said Upon its crest was set in defiance a gilded image of Glaurung the dragon.
What I don't understand is why put Glaurung in Hurin's heirloom while he's Morgoth's ally?

And who are Dragon of Dorlómin and the gold-worm of Angband? I think gold-worm of Angband is Glaurung but I'm not 100% sure :)

[Heidi]

Rachmi wrote: "Agree with you that first three chapters were repetitive. I especially didn't feel anything in chapter 2. I'm not sure whether it's because I've read about it in TS or because it didn't as descript..."

Rachmi, I totally agreed except for me that was pretty much chapters 1, 2 & 3.

Also about Nirnaeth Arnoediad, well I had to go back and search, because I just glossed over it without even realizing it, and it was so much more moving in TS.

I agree with you about Beleg: It was super frustrating even though I knew it was coming, uhm! The title of the chapter, but, still I wanted a different ending so much.

I don't expect any add'l info on why he forgot Nella, but it is a strange detail, perhaps symbolism for the overshadowing of his "true nature" by Morgoth's curse? Like if Morgoth hadn't cursed Hurin and all his heirs, or descendants, or whatever, Turin could never have forgotten Nella. Or maybe it's just how when we are adults we forget the people/places/things that were so beautiful/enchanting to us as a child ... or maybe Morgoth's curse is LIKE the curse of growing up and losing touch with our true nature's as we become "appropriately socialized" into whatever culture we live in? Whatever Tolkien's meaning, maybe multiples, it certainly is disturbing isn't it?

Yes, I agree on Saeros. This is where CoH fleshes out the story from TS well.

On the "wicked King", is Turin just speaking in generalities? Since he doesn't know his father is cursed yet, or will be, since a few paras later he says: "My father is not afraid, and I will not be; or at least as my mother, I will be afraid and not show it."

Interesting. I wish that would be expanded on throughout the story, i.e. how Turin's need to not show his fear drives him. I just finished reading Chapter 10 and now it makes me wonder if a need to not show fear is what makes him reckless? Or if that is how Morgoth's curse works through him?

On Glaurung on the Helm of Hador, I read it as the image of the dragon rallied the motive for fighting? I.e. seeing the enemy made them bloodthirsty? Something like that?

I think the Dragon of Dorlomin is Hurin? i.e. the fearless leader? and, yes, the gold worm of Angband is Glaurung. My read: Calling Hurin a dragon in opposition to a worm is a rallying cry for the fighters.

[Rachmi]

Also about Nirnaeth Arnoediad, well I had to go back and search, because I just glossed over it without even realizing it, and it was so much more moving in TS.

I wonder if it's because we read it first in TS it becomes more moving there than here. But the thing is I also feel that way with CoH, looking back now I much enjoy the story there than here in its own book while it is a full length novel this time, which what I was looking forward to when I finished TS.

The title of the chapter, but, still I wanted a different ending so much.

The title feels like Christopher Tolkien (or maybe it's Tolkien himself?) put readers as someone who already read TS. So it's so straight forward telling what it's the chapters are all about. I know CoH is best to read if we already read TS, but I wished Christopher Tolkien (or JRR Tolkien?) put different title to most of the chapters. So I at least get a little bit surprised at the end of the chapter, despite I have already know from TS.

I don't expect any add'l info on why he forgot Nella, but it is a strange detail, perhaps....

It is disturbing, but with Tolkien books, where most of everything has meaning, I tend to seek what the reason behind some actions or why the characters do what they choose to do. So when it doesn't explore more, and leave a kind of open meaning I thought there's something more to it hahaha.

Ah it much more sense now reading your thought about Glaurung and Dragon of Dorlomin. I think you're right and I agree with you on both accounts.

[Heidi]

Rach, it is interesting how the story had so much more impact the first time, even though it was a condensed version.

I agree on the titles:D This is an excellent example of the contribution to the story a title can make—or not ... great point to highlight.

The only meaning I can think is that perhaps by forgetting Nella, Turin is closed off from his "natural innocence" or conscience, maybe and/or also the natural world and its healing and/or inherent guiding benefits? What do you think about that?

[Rachmi]

I do think it's more about part of his growing up (like the one you thought in message 4) than closed off from Túrin conscience but then again, on second thoughts, it can also be right.

There's this view in Indonesia, mostly in Sundanese and Javanese ethnicities, that if female young adult has certain thing in her life it shows that she is closed off from her "natural innocence" and in a way she can considerably as an adult. In this case, I think it's the same thing so this "theory" also makes sense to me.