Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
cs wrote: "Ok, If there is no God, tell me what it's all about. ."thats somewhat begging the question, isn't it?
cs wrote: "Ok, If there is no God, tell me what it's all about."Depends on what you mean by 'it', but I'll assume you mean life in general....why does it have to be about anything? It just is....it's up to you how you live your life, what you do with it. My life is given meaning by family and friends, and by community. If my life is to have meaning I would like it to be that I left the world in some small way a better place than I found it...that the people I know and love were glad of my existence, and that where possible I was able to help those less fortunate than myself. I want for my children a better, safer, smarter world than the one I was born into.
None of that requires a god of any description, just basic humanity. And all of that is meaning I give, not one that is somehow considered inherent because we are apparently god's chosen creatures.
You?
And none of it comes from desiring a reward in an afterlife, whether it be eternal life, or 72 virgins, or whatever....
cs wrote: "Ok, If there is no God, tell me what it's all about. "If what you're asking is the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything then the question has already been answered.
Giansar wrote: "cs wrote: "Ok, If there is no God, tell me what it's all about. "If what you're asking is the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything then the question has already been answered."
Slightly less than 43 and a bit more than 41...
My theory is we are an uplift experiment. David Brin, the author, sussed this out. It sounds good....
Shanna wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Shanna wrote: "Any REAL LIFE occurrances? "http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-...
draw your own conclusions..."
You know I actually forgot about them... I might accept that..."
Actually, most shamen are trying to get away with piracy.
Cerebus wrote: "cs wrote: "Ok, If there is no God, tell me what it's all about."Depends on what you mean by 'it', but I'll assume you mean life in general....why does it have to be about anything? It just is....i..."
No not life in general. More what was before the Big Bang, or what caused it.
Most of us would agree with you about how you live your life. We are conditioned to behave that way if not because of the belief in God and religion then because of the law of the land.
I would be interested in how you think that you could ’leave the world in some small way a better place’.
Also if no one believed in a God then I don’t think your ‘basic humanity’ idea would be relevant, we would have a survival of the fittest society. If people thought that this was all there was, 80 years if you are lucky on this small planet and 50 of those years were spent doing a job they did not like just to survive and that was it, lights out, more people would put themselves first. It is religion in a funny sort of way that holds society together…… it also causes many wars, I will agree; a catch 22.
(That video is actually pretty funny - I'm sure even non-religious would get a kick out of it.
In a world without Science there would be no Goodreads.com, Internet, computers, publishing etc. I could not choose to get rid of this. Somehow it appears hypocritical to vote against the very science you are using to vote!
Paul wrote: "In a world without Science there would be no Goodreads.com, Internet, computers, publishing etc. I could not choose to get rid of this. Somehow it appears hypocritical to vote against the very scie..."Without God there could be no science.
God did his damdest to stop science, through his agents! He wanted to kill Galileo for noticing the moon wasn't perfect but had blemishes. He forced many scientists into hiding that had the gall to notice the earth was not the center of the solar system...anyone His agents caught were burned at the stake after being tortured with blessed knives, hammers, pinching devices, stretching devices and hot pokers. If you were Protestant in a Catholic country or vice versa, he seemed to decide in the favor of death by torture no matter who or why, especially women. There are thousands and thousands of persecuted scientists, doctors, writers, and women God killed, maimed and tortured to silence their knowledge.
Hazel wrote: "cs wrote: "Ok, If there is no God, tell me what it's all about. ."thats somewhat begging the question, isn't it?"
As in, proving what is not self-evident by means of itself..... have a go.
cs wrote: "Hazel wrote: "cs wrote: "Ok, If there is no God, tell me what it's all about. ."thats somewhat begging the question, isn't it?"
As in, proving what is not self-evident by means of itself......."
as in including your conclusion in the premise of the question. Try phrasing a question in a way that doesn't directly, or indirectly, assume the existence of god.
Ah! Good old Logic! Bless those ancients! I barely passed this class though. However, I did pass - my textbook is around here somewhere. Hurley? Hazel, did you excel in philosophy, by any chance?
nah, but I used to live with a guy who got a 1st degree in theology and philosophy, and he did that without ever attending lectures. I was green about his ability to learn so independently. Biology is more my strong point. But I like reading around any subject that happens to interest me, really cuts into my TV time ;P
Hazel wrote: "cs wrote: "Hazel wrote: "cs wrote: "Ok, If there is no God, tell me what it's all about. ."thats somewhat begging the question, isn't it?"
As in, proving what is not self-evident by means of its..."
Ok, What do you think caused the big bang?
cs, the honest answer, from both of us, to that question is I don't know. I don't even know if the big bang is the correct theory. But what I don't do is indulge in an argument from ignorance, and turn an abject statement of ignorance into an abject statement of certainty, such as "I don't know, so it must have been god". That statement is as meaningless as "it must have been a giant cosmic egg from which Ra emerged".I'm comfortable with not knowing,and with the knowledge that people smarter and better qualified than me are trying to work it out, without making unqualified and unsupported presumptions of what may have caused it.
Mike wrote: "Shanna wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Shanna wrote: "Any REAL LIFE occurrances? "http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-...
draw your own conclusions..."
You know I actually forgot about them... I mi..."
But not the majority of the Faithful I'm willing to bet
cs wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "cs wrote: " If you are waiting for science to give you answers then you are out of luck, they can only provide theories and theory is only a scientists belief that his idea could be..."No, if there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster, YOU tell ME what it is all about.
/I have been touched by his noodly appendage.
cs wrote: "Ok, What do you think caused the big bang?"The natural laws of entropy.
What do you think caused God?
And why *your* particular god?
Hazel wrote: "cs, the honest answer, from both of us, to that question is I don't know. I don't even know if the big bang is the correct theory. But what I don't do is indulge in an argument from ignorance, and ..."It seems odd that you are happy to let others work it out, knowing that if an answer is arrived at, it will not be in our life times and so we will never know that answer. Yet it bothers you more that some of us believe we already have the answer and don't need to wait for the proof. If we are wrong then nothing lost, i guess.
it bothers me that people are willing to be credulous to claims which they cannot provide good evidence for, instead of being comfortable with the idea that some things they simply don't know the answer to. People who believe they have the answer in god, don't have any answer at all, as they haven't answered the question of gods existence. Until you can prove that god exists, and that its the god you believe in, and not another one, then claiming god as an answer is as useful as claiming that cthulhu is the answer.If your "answer" doesn't have good, reliable evidence to support it, then it is not an answer.
And of course I'm happy to let the scientists who understand the greater intricacies of what they're doing to work it out, even if it takes another 500 years, as they're qualified, and I am not. I don't have access to the equipment needed to answer this question, nor do I have the level of education, training or understanding of the subject. Shaun seems to have a better understanding than I do, I'm more about biology.
In speaking for myself, the Meow, I don't care if god exists or not. What bothers me is that a lot of Christians (and other religious folk, like mosque burning Hindus, Christian murdering Muslims, etc.) won't let me alone in my pagan faith! Christians want a theocracy, not a democracy. They want to pass laws about prayers in schools being mandatory, church attendance necessary for job promotions, marriage in a church sanctioned by the Lord, etc. They talk about accepting Jesus in your heart, like it is an actual choice they are giving you. If you say NO, I don't believe Jesus exists - boy, the persecutions begin! Creationism is such a total fairy tale, yet Christians want it taught in schools as if if were stone cold fact (the earth is 6,000 years old, dinosaurs and people lived in the same era, etc.) If Christianity taught science, we would not have electrical power, or clean indoor plumbing, or airplanes or cars. All of the science that helped develop the conveniences we have would never have happened. Yet Christians present themselves as SO benign! I know of Christian families who do not let their girl children out of the house, and when I talked to one 15 years old a few years ago at a 4th of July celebration, she said the fireworks reminded her of God creating the earth 6,000 years ago, because it must have looked just like the fireworks! I was flabbergasted, shocked and horrified. Since she was a minor, and me a neighbor, I could say nothing.
Danica wrote: "Without God there could be no science. "And your reasoning for this statement is?
cs wrote: "No not life in general. More what was before the Big Bang, or what caused it. "Ok, well, to me that's a different question to "what's it all about", but why does there have to be anything before the big bang? If the big bang was the beginning of the universe, then there was most likely nothing before the big bang. What was before god?
cs wrote: "Most of us would agree with you about how you live your life. We are conditioned to behave that way if not because of the belief in God and religion then because of the law of the land."
Again you assume that fear of punishment is the only reason for moral behaviour, whether from a deity or from a community. That may be true for you, but many of us have empathy and treat others as we wish to be treated. I do not murder out of fear of retribution, but because i find the thought morally repugnant and it is not something I would particularly want to happen to me or those around me.
cs said: "I would be interested in how you think that you could ’leave the world in some small way a better place’."
It can be as simple as not leaving things worse than I found them, and when I say 'world' I don't mean doing earth-shattering feats that improve the lot of the roughly 7 billion of us now alive. If I can in some way contribute to my community, raise kids who are productive members of society, then that to me is sufficient.
cs said :"Also if no one believed in a God then I don’t think your ‘basic humanity’ idea would be relevant, we would have a survival of the fittest society. If people thought that this was all there was, 80 years if you are lucky on this small planet and 50 of those years were spent doing a job they did not like just to survive and that was it, lights out, more people would put themselves first. It is religion in a funny sort of way that holds society together…… it also causes many wars, I will agree; a catch 22. "
There's that same concept again, that without religion we would do whatever we wanted with scant regard for others. At no stage have you addressed the points raised that deal with this misconception, so once again I call bullshit. If we were to adhere to biblical morality then slavery would still be accepted. I will say it one more time, and if you still persist in believing otherwise then we're done....it is entirely possible to live a moral life without religion. I do it every day. Morality is not derived from the bible (yes, there are moral messages in the bible, but to say they originated there is incorrect, and there are also many immoral messages in there). If you disagree then why are many predominantly secular societies, particularly in places like Northern Europe, not full of the "every man for himself" behaviours you predict? Why are some of the Scandinavian countries world-leaders in welfare systems and looking after the less-well off parts of society?
And I would still dearly love you to answer the question as to the origins of your morality and the implication you give that without your fear of divine retribution you would be perfectly happy to live purely for yourself with no regard for others? Your statements on morality combined with your refusal to address this question strongly imply that this is the case.
Also, if you get your morality from the bible, do you take everything the bible says literally, or do you pick and choose? If you pick and choose, how do you decide which bits to ignore, and on whose authority? If you tell me that to be moral I need to be religious and adhere to biblical morality, then it seems incredibly presumptuous of you to overrule your god when you choose to ignore some of his apparent words.
cs wrote: "It seems odd that you are happy to let others work it out, knowing that if an answer is arrived at, it will not be in our life times and so we will never know that answer. Yet it bothers you more that some of us believe we already have the answer and don't need to wait for the proof. If we are wrong then nothing lost, i guess. "Because believing you have the answer without evidence is not the same as having the answer. Believing you have the answer means you stop looking...why look for an answer if you already believe you have it. In science, even if there is a theory it is constantly questioned and tested to see if it can be falsified, and if it is then a modification to the theory, or in some cases a whole new theory, is required.
If you believe illnesses are caused by god, why try and come up with medicines to prevent or treat those illnesses....if anything it seems presumptuous, if god wants you sick who are you to go against him and try and make yourself better?
Shaun wrote: "cs wrote: "Ok, What do you think caused the big bang?"The natural laws of entropy.
What do you think caused God?
And why *your* particular god?"
Maybe it was the natural laws of entropy for both.
Hazel wrote: "it bothers me that people are willing to be credulous to claims which they cannot provide good evidence for, instead of being comfortable with the idea that some things they simply don't know the a..."........and what good, reliable evidence would satisify you?
cs, you asked me this already, and I already gave the answer. Are you really that person who will show that they simply haven't read anything put previously by asking the same question that has already been adequately answered, Message 2111.
Cerebus wrote: "cs wrote: "It seems odd that you are happy to let others work it out, knowing that if an answer is arrived at, it will not be in our life times and so we will never know that answer. Yet it bothers..."No, believing one has the answer, means we keep looking so that we can have the proof that Hazel needs although I wonder what sort of proof she would be happy with.
Hazel wrote: "cs, ...Are you really that person who will show that they simply haven't read anything put previously by asking the same question that has already been adequately answered,"Or similarly not answer questions asked of you (cs)?
cs wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "cs wrote: "It seems odd that you are happy to let others work it out, knowing that if an answer is arrived at, it will not be in our life times and so we will never know that answer..."cs, having a conclusion and looking for proof of it is a forgone conclusion, as you will simply claim that whatever you see in the world is proof, whether it is or not. You cannot objectively investigate anything if you start from a conclusion and try to find evidence to support it. You start with the facts and evidence, and draw your conclusions from them.
Hazel wrote: "cs, you asked me this already, and I already gave the answer. Are you really that person who will show that they simply haven't read anything put previously by asking the same question that has alr..."Forgive me for not taking 2111 as an answer, it did seem like you were avoiding the question, with all those negatives.
cs wrote: "Hazel wrote: "cs, you asked me this already, and I already gave the answer. Are you really that person who will show that they simply haven't read anything put previously by asking the same questio..."so, I explained what is considered to be poor evidence, and how we recognise good evidence, and gave the criteria evidence would need to meet to be considered good enough to support a claim, and you think this isn't an answer?
What evidence would you consider good enough to convince you that Cernunnos exists?
Cerebus wrote: "Hazel wrote: "cs, ...Are you really that person who will show that they simply haven't read anything put previously by asking the same question that has already been adequately answered,"Or simila..."
I hope I have answered them, unless one got over looked, after all I am being attacked from three sides.
cs, this is a debate, you're not being attacked. Some of your ideas are being contested, but that is not attacking you. PLease, try to remain objective, we are not attacking you. I'm reasonably impressed that you're managing to field us all :)
cs wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Hazel wrote: "cs, ...Are you really that person who will show that they simply haven't read anything put previously by asking the same question that has already been adequately answ..."well, you didn't reply to message 2286. I'm waiting to see if you'll answer the question in 2301 as well, but I don't really count that in the not answered category unless it remains unanswered after a few more messages have gone past, including messages from yourself.
cs wrote: "I hope I have answered them, unless one got over looked, after all I am being attacked from three sides. "As Hazel said, you are not being attacked, your statements are being challenged. Apologies if it comes across as an attack.
The question I still feel hasn't been answered (and if I have missed it please direct me to the message where it is answered) is whether fear of divine retribution is the only thing keeping you from leading an immoral self-centred life?
April the Cheshire Meow wrote: "God did his damdest to stop science, through his agents! He wanted to kill Galileo for noticing the moon wasn't perfect but had blemishes. He forced many scientists into hiding that had the gall to..."Really? God came down and killed Galileo?
I think that man did that. Man acts "in the name of God" and uses God to justify acts that are terrible. Just because men commit terrible acts and say it is done in the name of God doesn't mean God approves.
Danica wrote: "Really? God came down and killed Galileo?I think that man did that. Man acts "in the name of God" and uses God to justify acts that are terrible. Just because men commit terrible acts and say it is done in the name of God doesn't mean God approves. "
A reasonable point, but which raises the question, how do you determine what god approves of? According to the bible slavery is acceptable....if you feel otherwise (as I assume you do) then that is your interpretation, so on what basis do you make that choice? Is that not just another case of 'man did that'?
@Danica, as a member of the LDS (or is it more correct to say, as an LDS?), what is your view on the creation story? For example, how old do you believe the universe to be? Dinosaurs? Did Dinosaurs and humans co-exist?
Cerebus wrote: "Danica wrote: "Really? God came down and killed Galileo?I think that man did that. Man acts "in the name of God" and uses God to justify acts that are terrible. Just because men commit terrible a..."
The Bible was written by man. It's not a perfect book.
Danica wrote: "The Bible was written by man. It's not a perfect book. "How do you decide which bits are perfect and which bits aren't? Which bits are accurate reflections of god's intent, and which are not? And how do you distinguish?
Danica wrote: "April the Cheshire Meow wrote: "God did his damdest to stop science, through his agents! He wanted to kill Galileo for noticing the moon wasn't perfect but had blemishes. He forced many scientists ..."I used that phrasing to draw out a response. Christians frequently insist that the biblical god is responsible for every human action. When I phrase things the way I did, theological cracks appear in some Christian's logic when they either 'correct' me or refute me. For good or ill, I strategically parrot back what I've heard or read said in this thread and others. Danica, you might not be that kind of thinker of Christian belief. I do not believe in the god of the Bible, Koran or Torah. I believe people are responsible for all human activity. Christians, obviously, believe in either the devil or god somehow using people as proxy soldiers in some kind of war for the possession of each human's soul. However, there is a tremendous lack of cohesive philosophy on this point, and Christians often appear to 'know' what god or the devil means or what their purpose is, no doubts. I've always been sickened by such obvious self-justifications and self-promotions for gain by some Christians sometimes 'knowing' god or the devil was acting through some sort of interactivity in this specific action or that. Many good people in the past died horribly because Christians claimed to know God's mind and were acting as his agent. I complete blame people, not any devil or god, for all the things people do.
Cerebus wrote: "@Danica, as a member of the LDS (or is it more correct to say, as an LDS?), what is your view on the creation story? For example, how old do you believe the universe to be? Dinosaurs? Did Dinosaurs..."I don't profess to know everything. I believe that we cannot know everything. As a student of philosophy, I believe that we cannot have solid proof of anything. Everything is based on axioms/assumptions, prior knowledge/experience, etc.
I am not sure how old the universe is. And I don't know about dinosaurs and men. I've heard lots of theories. There is uncertainty and disagreement even among members of my church.
I do believe in the creation story though, as all Latter-Day Saints do.
Danica wrote: "As a student of philosophy, I believe that we cannot have solid proof of anything."To clarify,does that include other people? If we're getting into solipsism then there's no point with any further discussion.
Danica said: "And I don't know about dinosaurs and men."
The scientific evidence is clear on this, so what is it about that evidence you reject?
Danica said: "I do believe in the creation story though, as all Latter-Day Saints do. "
So when you say "Without God there could be no science." when there is a conflict between a biblical explanation and a scientific explanation, you defer to the biblical?
Hazel wrote: "cs wrote: "Hazel wrote: "cs, you asked me this already, and I already gave the answer. Are you really that person who will show that they simply haven't read anything put previously by asking the s..."I don't believe that any horned god does exist.
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Wrong...."
Ok, If there is no God, tell me what it's all about.