Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
Is god your only reason to live, Tina? Is he the only "person" you can turn to when you're upset? Your friends and family provide real support that can be quantified, they have a real effect on you. Anything you feel from "god" is coming from your own construct within yourself.Does it really make you less of a person, with less meaning to yourself and those who love you, if you have no god to attribute a purpose to? Are we not capable of making our own reasons to live? Our own purpose? Are the people you love, and who love you, not reason enough for you? Are we so frail that we cannot accept that in the grand scheme of things, we're pretty much unimportant? Why does the universe have to be anthrocentric?
Feeling that you have no purpose without a god to attribute to is one of the nastiest pieces of indoctrination going. It essentially tells people they have no worth except through god, and thats horrifically wrong, no-one should be told that, because its untrue. You have intrinsic worth, you create it yourself, by your actions, and how you treat and interact with other people. To attribute anything worthwhile in yourself to an external agent is as bad as externalising all blame to such an agent, which christianity also teaches.
There is a point in doing something without god, otherwise the millions of atheists would simply stop. We don't though, what more evidence do you need that you can have purpose and worth without god than all the secular, non-religious charities, all the atheists who dedicate their lives to others, who live full and happy lives. What about the evidence that there are comparitively more theists in prison, and more theists committing suicide, and the evidence of lower crime rates in strongly atheist countries?
Its been a while since I've finished with a song, and I may have used this one before, but this one shows what is important:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCNvZq...
Whirlwind wrote: "I couldn't help noticing this comment: even SHE nowadays. "Hold your horses there. You completely misread my meaning.
My reasoning was anchored in the three big religions and what I wrote was a comment on a largely discriminatory attitude these organizations had and still have towards women. I in no way meant to imply that women were or are incapable of holding high positions in churches and advising the believers on questions of faith and whatnot.
I am not a misogynist. Even if I wanted to be one my wife wouldn't let me.
Tina wrote: And I agree with you that Christians are emotional in the fact that they need Christ, He is their brother and their friend but also their King.But I have a question- do you ever get emotional? Do you ever feel so low that you need a reason to live?
There were times when I doubted God and then I thought--if this whole world happened by chance then what is the point of my life? What am I meant for ? What's the point of doing anything? Where am I going? Where are we all going?
Tina, the entire human race has the capacity for emotion (unless there is a disorder of some sort). I am what you would call a secular Christian, that is that I live and was raised in a Christian society. But only the really very religious practitioners think that they “need” a Christ or savior. No one I know or have ever known sees him as a brother, and people no longer see this supernatural, outdated, mythical image as king.
Lots of times people feel despondent for various reasons, and they come out of it—or not—but the thing that pulls them out of that state isn’t a god, it’s the human mind, plus a little time. That’s life’s ups and downs. Why attribute your feeling better to some unknowable, invisible, supernatural non-existent being?
The point of living is that YOU ARE HERE! You are meant for whatever you decide you shall do with your life. The point of doing anything or to go on living is LIFE ITSELF! You don’t know where you’re going? Under the ground. Or cremated. Or buried at sea. Whatever, this is it and this is all we know. I doubt if there is an afterlife, which is all the more reason for you to go ahead and get on with your life and be as happy as you possibly can because WE DON’T KNOW WHY WE ARE HERE! And neither the bible, nor religion, nor this Christ-figure, can make a difference in any way, shape or form.
Yet you can alter your brainwaves by going into a state of self-induced, feel-good beta, alpha, theta, or delta ranges by listening to hymns and praying. But does that warm, fuzzy feeling mean that god has touched you? No, you’ve been affected by an alteration in your brainwaves, that’s it, that’s all. Scientific fact.
And this is the point where you have almost completely understood me! It is the point where we should agree to disagree!You are mostly correct, I do only live for Christ and He IS both my closest friend yet I respect Him and worship Him as the Sovereign Lord.
The Christian life is a struggle, I am far from perfect and I'm quick to admit it, I would be nothing without Christ.
Pride comes before a fall, and I struggle daily with confessing my sins and acknowledging His sacrifice as my only hope.
If I was left to myself to live my life I would be one depressed person. I have been there, done that, and sometimes still go through that due to constant temptations and fall to sinful nature.
But there is reason to live and a solid line of truth to line up all the gray area of this life found only in Jesus Christ.
Actually they are one and the same, they both show how the cosmos works.
Tina, I've found your comment very amusing. First of all, you'll find it difficult to meet another person more emotional than me. The most important thing in my life is love and believe me when I say that I would die for it. I already did some crazy things in name of love and I'm only 27 years-old. And I would do it all over again if necessary. But put a stop on there. I know to be a rational person too and when it comes to wise decisions, it's all brains.
I wondered about my life's meaning all the time, but one day, one not very far away (it happened a couple of weeks ago, to be exact) I had an epiphany. I noticed that life doesn't need to have a meaning.
Before that, almost every day of my life, I thought how meaningless my life was. What's the sense of my life?, I wondered. I'm here, I eat, I sleep, I love, I entertain myself, I work and for what? It was a very unhappy thought and I even found it hard to enjoy the things I love to do.
But after realizing that life isn't supposed to have a meaning things became a lot easier. I'm so much happier now! Now, when I do things, I do it with a completely different purpose. I do it out of love of myself. You see, within a billion chances I was the one who get the luck to be born.
And one more thing, you can say whatever you want but believing in a god is emotional. Yes, there are scientists that believes in god and you know what they say? That they have to shut their brains off when it comes to religion. There's also priests that became atheists, and why? Because they've started to analyse science proofs rationally or, in other words, they started to really think about what was in front of them all along.
But, what you're really telling me is that you don't think emotional reasons are valid(?), that's a good topic to talk about. Many times in our lives we have to choose between an emotional reaction and a rational one and not every time we chose the last one, you know? I'll give you an example, a cliché: imagine you find your boyfriend kissing another girl. You can go there and slap both in the face or just calm down and go talk to them. Hey, morals again! Do you know that morals are also emotional? I think I wrote about that before.
You also can see the world by two different lenses: one emotional, thinking there's someone out there that will put justice in this world. Or the rational lenses: look at the proofs and see that we made our own justice. Some scientists, and also theologians, say that there is an Emotional Intelligence, António Damásio is one of them. When it comes to how we see the world, I think the rational lenses are the best approach, because it will change all your life and you'll really become in awe with everything it has to offer you. "God did it" is conformism and it doesn't let us think how lucky we are. Maybe you do it once in a while. But I mean it everyday, at every time.
Giving a meaning to stars it darkens all its beauty, because you are not looking at them for what they really are any more. The same happens with our lives. Saying it was god's will is just saying you're not worth of something as amazing as our existence really is.
Sorry, I'm all philosophical today. Try to read Jostein Gaarder's novels. Don't worry, we will not convince that God doesn't exist but it will give you a meaning beyond god's concept. I still don't know if he's a religious person or an atheist.
Also, read this to see the relation between emotion and religion: http://books.google.com/books?id=WmyG... ;)
I wondered about my life's meaning all the time, but one day, one not very far away (it happened a couple of weeks ago, to be exact) I had an epiphany. I noticed that life doesn't need to have a meaning.
Before that, almost every day of my life, I thought how meaningless my life was. What's the sense of my life?, I wondered. I'm here, I eat, I sleep, I love, I entertain myself, I work and for what? It was a very unhappy thought and I even found it hard to enjoy the things I love to do.
But after realizing that life isn't supposed to have a meaning things became a lot easier. I'm so much happier now! Now, when I do things, I do it with a completely different purpose. I do it out of love of myself. You see, within a billion chances I was the one who get the luck to be born.
And one more thing, you can say whatever you want but believing in a god is emotional. Yes, there are scientists that believes in god and you know what they say? That they have to shut their brains off when it comes to religion. There's also priests that became atheists, and why? Because they've started to analyse science proofs rationally or, in other words, they started to really think about what was in front of them all along.
But, what you're really telling me is that you don't think emotional reasons are valid(?), that's a good topic to talk about. Many times in our lives we have to choose between an emotional reaction and a rational one and not every time we chose the last one, you know? I'll give you an example, a cliché: imagine you find your boyfriend kissing another girl. You can go there and slap both in the face or just calm down and go talk to them. Hey, morals again! Do you know that morals are also emotional? I think I wrote about that before.
You also can see the world by two different lenses: one emotional, thinking there's someone out there that will put justice in this world. Or the rational lenses: look at the proofs and see that we made our own justice. Some scientists, and also theologians, say that there is an Emotional Intelligence, António Damásio is one of them. When it comes to how we see the world, I think the rational lenses are the best approach, because it will change all your life and you'll really become in awe with everything it has to offer you. "God did it" is conformism and it doesn't let us think how lucky we are. Maybe you do it once in a while. But I mean it everyday, at every time.
Giving a meaning to stars it darkens all its beauty, because you are not looking at them for what they really are any more. The same happens with our lives. Saying it was god's will is just saying you're not worth of something as amazing as our existence really is.
Sorry, I'm all philosophical today. Try to read Jostein Gaarder's novels. Don't worry, we will not convince that God doesn't exist but it will give you a meaning beyond god's concept. I still don't know if he's a religious person or an atheist.
Also, read this to see the relation between emotion and religion: http://books.google.com/books?id=WmyG... ;)
Tina, I'm happy to agree to disagree. I do feel for you, that you think you're nothing without an imaginary friend. Especially when you don't see that if Jesus were real, and was the son of god (something that the council of nicae decided on, not something that Jesus ever claimed), then he made no sacrifice if he were resurrected, as he lost NOTHING by doing that. A noble sacrifice would have meant dying for people, and staying dead.If you honestly believe that you would be depressed wthout him, then really, I suggest a trip to the doctors, and to arrange for some counselling, or psychiatry, and to find out what the root cause of that is. It is better to deal with the problem than to hold to a belief that you are nothing. I've seen many people who believe they have no worth, who are massively depressed, you are not the first I have seen who then clings to a belief with no intrinsic worth in order to cope (thats all it is, a coping mechanism), and hides from the problem (whether you see a problem or not), instead of finding the help that they need.
But I can agree to disagree with you, I can agree that we won't come to a consensus, because you cling irrationaly to a belief that you use as a coping mechanism instead of facing the reality of the world. The reality by the way, is the most beautiful thing you'll ever see, if you allow yourself to see it. I wonder, who told you that you have sin? Who so indoctrinated you that you can't see that you are a person with intrinsic worth, that you have the right to your own thoughts, no matter how sad, happy, nasty, or lustful, without having to feel guilt for them?
If you really can find only jesus and god as a reason to live, where are your family? Where are your friends?
Kathy wrote: "Actually they are one and the same, they both show how the cosmos works."Yawn, can we have a new record please?
What about those without a family, without friends. What do you say to themWhat do you say to those who have suffered from drug abuse, attempted suicide,
what hope do you give them
That life is meaningless?
Whatto give those people without friends? What about giving them friendship? What about taking half an hour out of your day to do something constructive for them, as it works far better than prayer ever will (Meals on wheels in the UK does wonders for isolated elderly people). What about putting those who suffered from drug abuse into a caring, nurturing, healing environment, and helping them to recover, and providing them with a network of support. Same with those who attempt suicide. Its all about people working together, and for each other. No need for religion. I certainly wouldn't encourage people into another "vice" like religion, in order to cope instead of using drugs etc. I wouldn't suggest swapping one faulty coping mechanism for another.
Personally, alone, there is only so much I can do. But as a community, or as a species, we should be working to make everyones life better, and the divisions and segregations of religion are not the forum within which that can be truly carried out. We need people helping each other with no alterior motive, doing it because its the right thing to do, not holding any help ransom to Jesus, and not doing it for the selfish reason of wanting a better place in heaven.
But again, how does that make it the right thing to do?You say that society determines between right and wrong, we only feel "morality" because we evolved to feel this way from societal changes.
So are you saying that if society for some reason 'evolved" to believing we shouldn't love, we should hate, we shouldn't help, we should harm...would you still stand by it?
I didn't said life is meaningless. But it hasn't a purpose. The meaning of your life is the meaning you chose to give it.
What I would say to those people? Love yourself. Don't you see that is the key to all our problems? If you believe in yourself you're be able to surpass every obstacle, you can achieve all your dreams and you can be whoever you want to be. If you believe in yourself, you'll have the strength by your side. Our worst enemy is also our best friend: ourselves.
Please, you can believe in your god but don't put your life meaning on its hands. Because if one day your faith doesn't reveal to be enough to climb the mountain you'll don't have anything else.
I'm happy without putting the meaning of my life in a god and I don't have that many friends. Most of the times I just have my boyfriend and when he's not with me I feel fine by just being with myself.
I would say to them that no matter how different they are, how many times life was harsh there's someone like them or in a worse situation and that they can use their experiences to become a better person or to serve as an example to others. That they can still find a sparkle in their hearts if they search for it deeply.
What I would say to those people? Love yourself. Don't you see that is the key to all our problems? If you believe in yourself you're be able to surpass every obstacle, you can achieve all your dreams and you can be whoever you want to be. If you believe in yourself, you'll have the strength by your side. Our worst enemy is also our best friend: ourselves.
Please, you can believe in your god but don't put your life meaning on its hands. Because if one day your faith doesn't reveal to be enough to climb the mountain you'll don't have anything else.
I'm happy without putting the meaning of my life in a god and I don't have that many friends. Most of the times I just have my boyfriend and when he's not with me I feel fine by just being with myself.
I would say to them that no matter how different they are, how many times life was harsh there's someone like them or in a worse situation and that they can use their experiences to become a better person or to serve as an example to others. That they can still find a sparkle in their hearts if they search for it deeply.
I am not disagreeing with you that we should help and love others. I have been part of meals on wheels, I have friends who were once addicts, I love them and care for them. I am not doubting humans ability to love but we also have the ability to hate and what makes either one better if theres nothing to judge it to?But if you think about it we as humans are finite. We die, we let others down when we don't want to, we screw up and it all effects those around us. We can only count on eachother for so much.
Tina wrote: "But again, how does that make it the right thing to do?You say that society determines between right and wrong, we only feel "morality" because we evolved to feel this way from societal changes.
..."
unequivacably yes, I would stand by it, as I'd be a product of that evolution and society, and thus not know any different.
Tina wrote: "I am not disagreeing with you that we should help and love others. I have been part of meals on wheels, I have friends who were once addicts, I love them and care for them. I am not doubting humans..."There's ourselves to judge it to. We have the golden rule (which is tucked away somewhere in the bible too) of treat others as you'd wish to be treated. No external source is needed, you're capable of making moral judgements based on this golden rule. Its called self respect, self esteem, and mutual respect. Guilt is something anyone can feel, if they do something that they believe was morally wrong, or at least a little bit touch and go, if you wish to avoid guilt, don't treat others in a way you wouldn't want to be treated, but please, don't feel guilt over feeling perfectly natural things... actually, thats an assumption on my part, I don't know what you actually think you've done i order to "sin", and feel guilty about, but I thought it was safe to assume that you haven't killed, or stolen, or abused anyone etc etc.
And the most important thing to remember is that if someone truly cares about you and loves you, then you can count on them until the end of the world. As I'm sure you'd do for them, would you not?
That's what I've been saying time after time, but people only listen what they want...
Tina wrote: "And this is the point where you have almost completely understood me! It is the point where we should agree to disagree!You are mostly correct, I do only live for Christ and He IS both my closest ..."
ok if U say so
Tina wrote: "What about those without a family, without friends. What do you say to themWhat do you say to those who have suffered from drug abuse, attempted suicide,
what hope do you give them
That life is m..."
Religion is not the only choice! There are a thousand choices for us to make and religion is but one of them, yet I have to tell you that it is the most irrational of them all. If you had one or all of those issues you mentioned above, there's taking up painting, taking a course, take up photography or art, join a group, go for therapy, find friends at a book club, walk in the woods, take a trip, call an old friend, join a gym, call a suicide hotline, find a drug program, adopt a pet, plant a garden, turn your life around! People do it for themselves, it's all there if they want it.
Just as there's no boogey man under your bed to scare you, there's no invisible 'god' to save you. Now, is there a creative energy by which the world was made? Sure there is, but is it a holy, commanding, authoritative, religious, jealous, "Father", male, punishing, god? No, it is none of those things. Is it awesome and awe-inspiring? Of course! Is it worthy of being grateful for? I sure think so, yes! But does this 'thing' that created the world fit into that little tiny, narrow-minded box of religion? A resounding NO! No! This wonderful world is magnificence without a face and yet with countless faces, because it is absolutely, unconditionally, unfathomable, unknowable, unreachable, and it cannot be named. IT is without gender and yet it must be of both genders, because it created both. And it does not ask or demand to be worshiped; it simply IS. In its beautiful silence and immense and noble power to create, destroy, and renew all life. Is that 'god'? If you say so, prove it.
Its called cosmic fission Whirlwind... ;P
I actually strangely agree with you...with the fact that this wonderful world can not fit into a narrow-minded box of religion,
and that it is without gender
Hazel wrote: "Its called cosmic fission Whirlwind... ;P"Ah, but there are things that we know by scientific names and there are those that we know intuitively.
:P back atcha! LOL
Tina wrote: "I actually strangely agree with you...with the fact that this wonderful world can not fit into a narrow-minded box of religion,
and that it is without gender"
Well, it's a start. :D
Tina wrote: "I actually strangely agree with you...with the fact that this wonderful world can not fit into a narrow-minded box of religion,
and that it is without gender"
...but um, didn't you say that Jesus (a male) is your lord (not lady, ergo, male) and savior?? and king (male again)??
did you ever wonder to yourself what happened to the ancient goddesses they used to worship? were they not just as real? didn't they exist at one time just as surely as the modern-day god?
no they never did, that's because the notion of a god or goddess is a mere focus for which to turn your attentions when needing an image to conjur in your mind...but is it really there? it never was and never will be...it's human imagination, don't you think?
i wonder why women go along with this male deity, i mean wouldn't you like to have a god that looks like you? somehow i'm uncomfortable with worshiping anything that is male...especially a phallic god like the christian god
The thing for me is that some religious people say that their deity is their only reason for living. Why is that? Why are you basing your whole LIFE on something that you can't know for sure is real, no matter what you think you might feel! I mean, why can't your life be your own? Why does it all have to be supported by something? Why are you "nothing" without it? It just seems to be a real low amount of self-esteem, and almost self-hatred.
Religion was created by humans who have gender, while Source is perfect and therefore contains both genders. When you become a creature of spirit gender is meaningless.
Kathy wrote: "Religion was created by humans who have gender, while Source is perfect and therefore contains both genders. When you become a creature of spirit gender is meaningless."But how do you know that, Kathy? And how do we become a creature of spirit as you say?
Whirlwind wrote: "Giansar wrote: "go to your priest or rabbi or imam or whatever your minister is and he (or maybe even she nowadays) will explain to you why you are wrong. ..."I couldn't help noticing this commen..."
I completely agree with you, though I don't think all Christians today believe that God has the male gender.
Tina: Yes I agree that there are plenty of hatred and suffering in our world, we are all going to die some day and even our so called "civilization" would not last forever, but it is still possible to for people to make moral choices and love and help each other without belief in god(s), holy books or afterlife:)
Whirlwind wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Religion was created by humans who have gender, while Source is perfect and therefore contains both genders. When you become a creature of spirit gender is meaningless."But how do..."
What is man/woman but a little piece of God/Spirit/Goddess in a human suit, here lifetime after lifetime to learn how to become God. Earth is but a giant hollow deck where we take on different personalities to learn different lessons. Between lifetimes we are pure spirit but we take on the density of humanness so we can grow spiritually. The trick is life is the hard part it's between lives that's easy. If this interests you look up ascension, the ascended masters and the works of Kryon and Joshua David Stone. It's all part of the western mystery schools.
Isn't that just about as bad as religion? Or put another way, isn't that just another religion? Wow, Kathy I don't know where you got that. Giant hollow deck? Surely, you jest. Take on the density of humanness? Whaaa??? Ascension? You mean like climbing up into the ether on a stream of light? Oh ya, I got ya now. You've been reading too much Pratchett luvvie.
Kathy, are you new age by any chance?
Kathy wrote: "Between lifetimes we are pure spirit but we take on the density of humanness so we can grow spiritually. The trick is life is the hard part it's between lives that's easy. If this interests you look up ascension, the ascended masters and the works of Kryon and Joshua David Stone. It's all part of the western mystery schools..."This is just as unfounded on evidence as any other faith based reality tunnel. Whether you worship Odin, Crom Cruach, faeries, YHVH, Athena, Isis etc. Just because something is old or seems more PC doesn't make it any more real.
Still, it's nice to hear someone that isn't a follower of JC on the thread...
Actually I'm a student of the Western Mystery Schools which is a combination of spiritual knowledge from Atlantis until now. And I channel The Ascended Master Lady Portia the feminine energy of the seventh ray of Ceremonial Magic and Freedom.
Honestly? I've never heard of that, and I used to be pagan (I grew out of it though), so there's part of me that wonders if you're pulling our collective leg.Whats the history of that movement then? Is this the same thing as I've found info on that was created by a woman who was trained by the Society of the Golden Dawn? Dion Fortune, is the name she went by, but her real name was Violet Mary Firth. Call themselves the Servants of the Light?
You know, the golden dawn, who are about as credible as the Thule Society. Who teach hermetic qabalah, and divination, tarot and astrology, astral projection and alchemy.
Actually it comes very close to what Harry Potter would have studied were he really studying to be a wizard. It starts with Thoth and Hermes, through Qabalah, gnostic christianity,Druidry, catharism, spiritual alchemy, The Golden Dawn, The Society of Inner Light, Theosophy and then working with the Ascended Masters.
Kathy wrote: "Actually it comes very close to what Harry Potter would have studied were he really studying to be a wizard. It starts with Thoth and Hermes, through Qabalah, gnostic christianity,Druidry, catharis..."Sounds like a pick and mix...
Do you just take the pleasant bits from each "path" and ignore the nasty stuff? Ignore the druidic brutality and concentrate on the nature stuff?
Anyway, I guess it's as valid as a christian ignoring the horror of the old test...
Are you going down the route of:
"...our method is science, our aim is religion..."?
Or is there an Erisian method behind your posts?
Why would you want to do anything else except sift the best from all and eliminate the nasty stuff, my allegiances are with Spirit who is perfect, not with the inventions of man who is flawed.
HA! Very, very interesting point, Kathy! I'm in total agreement.
Hazel wrote: "Kathy, are you new age by any chance?"LOL!
Kathy wrote: "Why would you want to do anything else except sift the best from all and eliminate the nasty stuff, my allegiances are with Spirit who is perfect, not with the inventions of man who is flawed."So, how do you punish sacrilege? Surely there must be some way to punish those who desecrate holy groves? Celtic paganism, as presided over by the druids, would have involved having them whipped around the sacred oak. Whats your method?
I completely agree that "man" is flawed, but that is about the ONLY thing you've said that is provable fact! All this sounds like a cult, but these kinds of schools are popping up all over the place these days and if it makes you feel good, do it. But you must know that there's really nothing hiding behind the curtain than in any other walk of life. Personally, I'd put my money on a solid education or a lovely vacation and experience reality instead of making some quacks rich. And Kathy, you must know that the whole idea of Atlantis is about as mythical as are the Arthurian tales in that no one knows for sure whether they ever existed or not. Same with all the biblical names. Some are historical but we know that some are mythical. Atlantis falls into the latter category I'm afraid, and even if it did exist, why turn to some weird place for 'alternative knowledge'? What's wrong with the abundance of wisdom that you can gain in living right here in the real world?
Thinking of which, this begs the question to everyone, and hopefully is (to a degree) still in keeping with the original topic, what is the difference between cult and religion?
Don't be lame folks, be sporting, and let's digress into this for a little while. :D
the number of people that adhere to it, Whirlwind, at least thats the accepted idea. iIf you were ancient greek or roman, the term cult was the accepted term for the groups who worshipped each god.Cult is just another word for a religion. There is no difference.
cult /kʌlt/ Show Spelled[kuhlt] Show IPA
noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
A question ...
We've made incredible scientific and technological advancements since WWII. I believe history tells us some of these, perhaps many of these, advancements stemmed from the work done by scientists from that time. Many of those scientists worked for the Nazis, at least originally. Think of the rockets the Nazi scientists developed and the people who were murdered because of them. Later, those scientists went to work for the Americans and the Russians and furthered their work in rocket science, leading to the space race ... which, ultimately, lead to the work done in space since. Think of all of the science and technology that has come from our work on the shuttle and space station and all of the things we use today that come from that work. Silicon chips that detect breast cancer. Contact lenses. The list goes on. These are amazing things and benefit us daily. But, much of it started with Nazi scientists who built rockets with the aim of murdering innocent civilians.
My question .... For those who question people who pick the good aspects of different spiritual paths and religions, do you do the same when it comes to science and technology? Do you refuse to benefit from science and technology that originally was used for horrific purposes ... including nuclear medicine and nuclear power?Or, do you accept and benefit from the best that science and technology have to offer?
We've made incredible scientific and technological advancements since WWII. I believe history tells us some of these, perhaps many of these, advancements stemmed from the work done by scientists from that time. Many of those scientists worked for the Nazis, at least originally. Think of the rockets the Nazi scientists developed and the people who were murdered because of them. Later, those scientists went to work for the Americans and the Russians and furthered their work in rocket science, leading to the space race ... which, ultimately, lead to the work done in space since. Think of all of the science and technology that has come from our work on the shuttle and space station and all of the things we use today that come from that work. Silicon chips that detect breast cancer. Contact lenses. The list goes on. These are amazing things and benefit us daily. But, much of it started with Nazi scientists who built rockets with the aim of murdering innocent civilians.
My question .... For those who question people who pick the good aspects of different spiritual paths and religions, do you do the same when it comes to science and technology? Do you refuse to benefit from science and technology that originally was used for horrific purposes ... including nuclear medicine and nuclear power?Or, do you accept and benefit from the best that science and technology have to offer?
Hmmm. Some good points, Hazel. Speaking from today's perspective, does it not have something to do with to what degree the organization is sanctioned by the majority of society?
Just throwing that out at you....
yeah, it probably does, the term cult, despite its actual meaning is usually used these days as a disparaging term for any religious group thats even more "out there" than the accepted norm. Its also a term used to distance mainstream religions from the groups that encourage things like group suicide, like Heavens Gate and Solar Temple. And this seperation created by, usually, monotheistic religions leads to them also, I reckon, using the term "cult" in relation to paganistic religions, as if they're trying to tar them with the same brush.Shannon, things like nuclear weapons were offshoots of the search for nuclear power and medicine, not the other way round. It was always intended for the good, then someone (in the case of things like the A bomb, a christian president of the USA) decided they were going to use it for their own ends. I take your point on the space race though, and will give it some thought.,
Whirlwind wrote: "Hmmm. Some good points, Hazel.
Speaking from today's perspective, does it not have something to do with to what degree the organization is sanctioned by the majority of society?
Just throwin..."
From my memories of my college Intro to Sociology class, there are three prerequisites that must be met for a "cult" or religious movement to become a "recognized" religion. If I remember correctly, one is how many people are members of the "cult" or religious movement. Another is how long it has existed. I can't remember the third.
Ultimately, though, why does it matter? Agnostics and Atheists would say there is no proof, regardless of whether or not we were talking about a "cult" or a "recognized" religion. As such, I would imagine the same amount of credence (or lack thereof) would be given to cults and religions. So .... In truth, what is the difference?
Speaking from today's perspective, does it not have something to do with to what degree the organization is sanctioned by the majority of society?
Just throwin..."
From my memories of my college Intro to Sociology class, there are three prerequisites that must be met for a "cult" or religious movement to become a "recognized" religion. If I remember correctly, one is how many people are members of the "cult" or religious movement. Another is how long it has existed. I can't remember the third.
Ultimately, though, why does it matter? Agnostics and Atheists would say there is no proof, regardless of whether or not we were talking about a "cult" or a "recognized" religion. As such, I would imagine the same amount of credence (or lack thereof) would be given to cults and religions. So .... In truth, what is the difference?
I just read this short article. I'm staggered that just about every word could describe organized religion. http://theliepolitic.com/2009/02/what...
(I haven't posted this for the purposes of criticizing Islam specifically, even though there is a commentary about it. It's the overall description that I find so interesting, especially knowing some of the history of all the main religions.)
Shannon wrote: "Whirlwind wrote: "Hmmm. Some good points, Hazel. Speaking from today's perspective, does it not have something to do with to what degree the organization is sanctioned by the majority of societ..."
whats the difference? None. However, its also an intersting topic of conversation.
Hazel wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Whirlwind wrote: "Hmmm. Some good points, Hazel.
Speaking from today's perspective, does it not have something to do with to what degree the organization is sanctioned by the ..."
Well .... It is an interesting topic of conversation, for me, in that it deals with how society labels people and deems certain groups and certain beliefs to be acceptable and others not. I personally find it interesting and somewhat amusing that society feels such a need to sort and categorize and label in order to find meaning.
As I was remembering lolling through Intro to Sociology, I remembered something else. If I remember correctly, my history texts gave prerequisites for a "civilized" society. I can't remember all of them; there were several. One was writing. Another ... religion. Ummm.... What think you of that? :) I can guess. But, that goes to this idea that society feels the need to define, categorize, and label. By whose definition ...?
Speaking from today's perspective, does it not have something to do with to what degree the organization is sanctioned by the ..."
Well .... It is an interesting topic of conversation, for me, in that it deals with how society labels people and deems certain groups and certain beliefs to be acceptable and others not. I personally find it interesting and somewhat amusing that society feels such a need to sort and categorize and label in order to find meaning.
As I was remembering lolling through Intro to Sociology, I remembered something else. If I remember correctly, my history texts gave prerequisites for a "civilized" society. I can't remember all of them; there were several. One was writing. Another ... religion. Ummm.... What think you of that? :) I can guess. But, that goes to this idea that society feels the need to define, categorize, and label. By whose definition ...?
Shannon wrote: "My question .... For those who question people who pick the good aspects of different spiritual paths and religions, do you do the same when it comes to science and technology? Do you refuse to benefit from science and technology that originally was used for horrific purposes ... including nuclear medicine and nuclear power?Or, do you accept and benefit from the best that science and technology have to offer?"Science doesn't claim any moral framework as it is a tool, the people that use the tool bring their own morals.
A serial killer may use a hammer in a different way to a carpenter...a nazi eugenicist may use medical techniques in a different way to a red cross team at an aid station.
The tool has no morals.
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Which is..."
We already disagree with the "rational" side of things, I do believe there are rational reasons for the existence of God,(as stated in previous comments) but I admit I do not know them intricately. There are many atheists who have studied science and have turned to the belief of a Creator, one example being Lee Strobel.
And I agree with you that Christians are emotional in the fact that they need Christ, He is their brother and their friend but also their King.
But I have a question- do you ever get emotional? Do you ever feel so low that you need a reason to live?
There were times when I doubted God and then I thought--if this whole world happened by chance then what is the point of my life? What am I meant for ? What's the point of doing anything? Where am I going? Where are we all going?