Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
Gary wrote: "Vishal wrote: "The great way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,..."
Now what can I do for that. It is the way, you see contradiction then solve first that contradiction in your mind because reasoning is seeing the both sides. If you deny one side then what kind of reasoning it would be. So please solve this first in your mind, if you find you would a person as you are, if you would not find, still you would a person as you are. Nothing is gonna happen. Now here only one thing I can say which is below:-
Once a rich business man father asked his four years son, 'Son, what gift would you like for this Christmas?'
The son said, 'Papa, I want a baby boy'.
The father said, 'But it is not possible in just two weeks'.
The son replied, 'so what father, just put up more men on this job.'
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,..."
Now what can I do for that. It is the way, you see contradiction then solve first that contradiction in your mind because reasoning is seeing the both sides. If you deny one side then what kind of reasoning it would be. So please solve this first in your mind, if you find you would a person as you are, if you would not find, still you would a person as you are. Nothing is gonna happen. Now here only one thing I can say which is below:-
Once a rich business man father asked his four years son, 'Son, what gift would you like for this Christmas?'
The son said, 'Papa, I want a baby boy'.
The father said, 'But it is not possible in just two weeks'.
The son replied, 'so what father, just put up more men on this job.'
Hazel wrote: "It amazes me, you get people obsessed and excited about all sorts of things, there are people who love to paint and spend all day doing it, but no-one ever says art is a religion, there are people ..."
There are people who stand with one side and there are people who stand with another side and both are arguing and you are not new. This is already happening for thousands of years. Now I was reading your comments and found you are saying something to people to go former pages and see there is refutation. That is good and a great tool to distract people to see what has written on the pages rather than leave them see actually what is there. Actually this is not a new tool, the whole religions are doing this thing to ask people to see what scriptures say. I suppose this has happened because your anger. Now you are confused why people are not coming in the favor so it is making you anger. This is fanatics do and they are doing this since many years.
Now the question is why this anguish and anxiety is there? If someone will start talking in 'gibberish', one feels really anxious and if it continues then one will feel anger. If many people start laughing around someone then one will feel this anxiety is growing in anger and then violence. Go deeper and find out if this seed is there. If we put up one normal man in madhouse, there is much possibility that man will turn mad or violent.
Now if this seed is in you then it can also be in another. Try to solve out with biology and chemistry and physics and see are you able to remove it out. If you get success then you would be the first person who has made a great discovery but if not then you would have to go in the mind. In the psychology. The whole mind is a mystery and for solving this mystery the subject psychology is there. Now if you come to the psychology of human mind then every thing will a matter of deep study and understanding. If anger can come to you then easily it can come to others and if others do something out of anger then killing can be defended. I doubt have you really read so much books as you were saying?
Now I have something that can explain 'spirituality' but I doubt because you have all ready made up mind against anything. In your word 'non-sense', even I can feel a tremendous power sitting far away from you but still I try and I know this will also become 'non-sense'. And if you don't understand then it is not my problem but yours but if you understand then again it is not my problem but yours. LOL
If you have used the word 'spirituality' then question quickly comes, do you know what that mean of 'spiritual'? If you already know then you can apply that meaning and can understand 'spirituality' but I consider you don't know. So if you don't know and you are asking then there would be two conditions, whether someone's answer will satisfy you or not. Now if it satisfies you then you will quickly stick yourself with the belief and if that answer happens wrong then you will wrongly follow it. If anyhow that answer becomes right, again you would be following wrongly because you have borrowed that answer and borrowing is meant to be a short term stay. So actually that would not be your answer and because you don't know what is that so you'd not be able to find out whether it is right or wrong. So again you'd be following wrongly.
Now if someone's answer suppose doesn't satisfy you, it means the seed of dissatisfaction was also in your mind so someone's who is thinking to answer will be in confusion to answer you or not because it is something one has experienced and possibility is that you will be dissatisfied. So one will say to find yourself but problem will be unsolved because it can be happened that you come and say, you did not find and it is non-sense. Experience can be written in words but it is not that it can give you the same thing. Now you are wandering outside and not inside. To go inside you need psychology. The word 'inside' is near to spirituality but again the question will arise what is this inside? Because someone can go inside and find there is a brain and heart and every internal organ and can say what non-sense are you talking about because I have seen every organ and there was no 'spirituality'. Mind is fluctuating so in your mind you have already accepted 'not' and then what you will ask would be just a superficial game as if a person boiling inside but he says I am not angry with a smile. Then there is no need to ask what is this, what is that. If you found you will come with a belief that you have found and if you don't still you live with this belief that you didn't find. In both situation you will be sticking with a belief and when ever someone who is in favor of something will come, if you have found then you will say 'yes' and when someone who is against and you have not found then you will say 'yes'. So whether you will be at one side or at another side and if you at both then you will be deceiving yourself because half your brain is in favor and half is against. But when you drop these three then my answer is you will experience the meaning of the word 'spirituality'.
Now if you will read this then you will think this as a philosophy and your mind will start to categorize. If you are peace minded then you will place this junk in your head or you will let it pass and then there is the problem because then just give a little place in head or let it pass from your mind can be dangerous because it will force you to think for a fraction of second and then you will be brought in one side or suppose you are an aggressive minded person then you will think, what to do with this guy and it is the problem because even for a fraction of second thinking about it can drag you to think something against of it and then you will be in the another side so again you will will dangling between two sides. My answer is if you drop these two then there is a feeling of 'spirituality'.
I am sorry that I have wrote this but your posted pictures are really great. You can post something like for me. You are welcome.
There are people who stand with one side and there are people who stand with another side and both are arguing and you are not new. This is already happening for thousands of years. Now I was reading your comments and found you are saying something to people to go former pages and see there is refutation. That is good and a great tool to distract people to see what has written on the pages rather than leave them see actually what is there. Actually this is not a new tool, the whole religions are doing this thing to ask people to see what scriptures say. I suppose this has happened because your anger. Now you are confused why people are not coming in the favor so it is making you anger. This is fanatics do and they are doing this since many years.
Now the question is why this anguish and anxiety is there? If someone will start talking in 'gibberish', one feels really anxious and if it continues then one will feel anger. If many people start laughing around someone then one will feel this anxiety is growing in anger and then violence. Go deeper and find out if this seed is there. If we put up one normal man in madhouse, there is much possibility that man will turn mad or violent.
Now if this seed is in you then it can also be in another. Try to solve out with biology and chemistry and physics and see are you able to remove it out. If you get success then you would be the first person who has made a great discovery but if not then you would have to go in the mind. In the psychology. The whole mind is a mystery and for solving this mystery the subject psychology is there. Now if you come to the psychology of human mind then every thing will a matter of deep study and understanding. If anger can come to you then easily it can come to others and if others do something out of anger then killing can be defended. I doubt have you really read so much books as you were saying?
Now I have something that can explain 'spirituality' but I doubt because you have all ready made up mind against anything. In your word 'non-sense', even I can feel a tremendous power sitting far away from you but still I try and I know this will also become 'non-sense'. And if you don't understand then it is not my problem but yours but if you understand then again it is not my problem but yours. LOL
If you have used the word 'spirituality' then question quickly comes, do you know what that mean of 'spiritual'? If you already know then you can apply that meaning and can understand 'spirituality' but I consider you don't know. So if you don't know and you are asking then there would be two conditions, whether someone's answer will satisfy you or not. Now if it satisfies you then you will quickly stick yourself with the belief and if that answer happens wrong then you will wrongly follow it. If anyhow that answer becomes right, again you would be following wrongly because you have borrowed that answer and borrowing is meant to be a short term stay. So actually that would not be your answer and because you don't know what is that so you'd not be able to find out whether it is right or wrong. So again you'd be following wrongly.
Now if someone's answer suppose doesn't satisfy you, it means the seed of dissatisfaction was also in your mind so someone's who is thinking to answer will be in confusion to answer you or not because it is something one has experienced and possibility is that you will be dissatisfied. So one will say to find yourself but problem will be unsolved because it can be happened that you come and say, you did not find and it is non-sense. Experience can be written in words but it is not that it can give you the same thing. Now you are wandering outside and not inside. To go inside you need psychology. The word 'inside' is near to spirituality but again the question will arise what is this inside? Because someone can go inside and find there is a brain and heart and every internal organ and can say what non-sense are you talking about because I have seen every organ and there was no 'spirituality'. Mind is fluctuating so in your mind you have already accepted 'not' and then what you will ask would be just a superficial game as if a person boiling inside but he says I am not angry with a smile. Then there is no need to ask what is this, what is that. If you found you will come with a belief that you have found and if you don't still you live with this belief that you didn't find. In both situation you will be sticking with a belief and when ever someone who is in favor of something will come, if you have found then you will say 'yes' and when someone who is against and you have not found then you will say 'yes'. So whether you will be at one side or at another side and if you at both then you will be deceiving yourself because half your brain is in favor and half is against. But when you drop these three then my answer is you will experience the meaning of the word 'spirituality'.
Now if you will read this then you will think this as a philosophy and your mind will start to categorize. If you are peace minded then you will place this junk in your head or you will let it pass and then there is the problem because then just give a little place in head or let it pass from your mind can be dangerous because it will force you to think for a fraction of second and then you will be brought in one side or suppose you are an aggressive minded person then you will think, what to do with this guy and it is the problem because even for a fraction of second thinking about it can drag you to think something against of it and then you will be in the another side so again you will will dangling between two sides. My answer is if you drop these two then there is a feeling of 'spirituality'.
I am sorry that I have wrote this but your posted pictures are really great. You can post something like for me. You are welcome.
Vishal wrote: "I didn't understand where you are pointing. You have given an explanation and hiding it under the word 'complex'."Did you just stop reading when you saw the word 'complex'?
It isn't hiding an explanation it is acknowledging that the explanation will have to be general because the word "love" is not very specific.
Vishal wrote: "This is hardly an explanation because when we explain we just not take the word 'what' but we also include 'how', 'why', 'where' and there is hardly anything that is about the explanation 'love'. You are showing interest in the word 'love' that people use. Please be more specific with the word 'love' and see it in term of a single person.
Try another explanation."
In that case which kind of "love" do you want an explanation for, affection, familial love, romantic love, ideological love, conceptual love?
Exactly what did you feel the explanation lacked? "Where" is fairly contextual, do you mean "where is love" or "where do we feel it"? "Why" is self referential, "why" generally assumes a motive.
Vishal wrote: " If you deny one side then what kind of reasoning it would be."
Exactly, but one side of that reasoning denies the other and vice versa, therefore the statement is meaningless.
Vishal wrote: "So please solve this first in your mind"
I did, hence the problem.
You cannot simply assume that if somebody refutes something, they do not understand it. I refute it because I understood the claim and found it meaningless even within its own premise.
Vishal wrote: "The son replied, 'so what father, just put up more men on this job.' "
You see, exactly, sometimes an answer can seem reasonable out of context, but in context it is absurd.
Hazel wrote: "what a pile of hogwash. If you want to see the truth, then investigate it, don't sit around contemplating your navel."
Dear Hazel, I am a foolish and I appreciate you for making me more foolish than needed. But whether a foolish is more foolish or less foolish, it will stay foolish.
Okay, so what is here you are saying that truth is something that can be attained without the navel? Now what will I do. Where ever I go this stupid navel comes along with me. I have thought about your statement and became confused, how to leave this poor navel for seeking truth. Now a days you know people don't care much about of it. So someone is needed for it. Thank you, I hope, more foolish is not perfect so you will try to find out another deeper word. Do it soon.
Dear Hazel, I am a foolish and I appreciate you for making me more foolish than needed. But whether a foolish is more foolish or less foolish, it will stay foolish.
Okay, so what is here you are saying that truth is something that can be attained without the navel? Now what will I do. Where ever I go this stupid navel comes along with me. I have thought about your statement and became confused, how to leave this poor navel for seeking truth. Now a days you know people don't care much about of it. So someone is needed for it. Thank you, I hope, more foolish is not perfect so you will try to find out another deeper word. Do it soon.
Vishal, its a turn of phrase, to contemplate your navel, it means to stare into space (or int he case of the phrase, you belly button) and hope the answer just comes to you, its an example of an exercise in futility. Its suggesting that if you want to know how the world works you shouldn't wait for answers, but go out and find them, and the best method we have for understanding the universe is the scientific method, no amount of philosophising and spiritual sounding rubbish will out do it.
Hazel wrote: "Eyad wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Eyad wrote: "this world can't be with out both of science and religion"
why?"
what did u not understand it ??"
No, I want you to explain why you think the world cannot..."
To ask people these questions I suppose you have already made an answer how this world can stay without religion. So please explain first your answer. Because what Gary has done here is just going against inner feelings with reasoning or trying to separate man from religion without being more specific 'how' and 'why'. I suppose what he has written here is just an statement against religion which included what religion has done wrong. Now he himself have said that if he would make any reformation in religion then will religion accept? To say this he has become somewhat open for religion, it means he is in the favor of deep reformation. Now ask Gary, whether he'd said it or not.
You know what, so much time you talk against religion. Do you know your talking against religion is also becoming a favor to religion? It is because Vatican had said against the use of 'condom' and it became the news headlines and people who were not thinking about it came to think about it. Very few people had idea what this 'condom' does and see because of AIDS awareness and sex workers, this word is famous now but still not popular in use. You know about negative publicity? When one company starts publishing against its product, people are drawn to use that product and once they are there, they see it is becoming hard to leave. How smoking is increasing? Even the cigarette company publish the warning of danger. You can understand. Just religion burns one book and see the selling is on peak.
why?"
what did u not understand it ??"
No, I want you to explain why you think the world cannot..."
To ask people these questions I suppose you have already made an answer how this world can stay without religion. So please explain first your answer. Because what Gary has done here is just going against inner feelings with reasoning or trying to separate man from religion without being more specific 'how' and 'why'. I suppose what he has written here is just an statement against religion which included what religion has done wrong. Now he himself have said that if he would make any reformation in religion then will religion accept? To say this he has become somewhat open for religion, it means he is in the favor of deep reformation. Now ask Gary, whether he'd said it or not.
You know what, so much time you talk against religion. Do you know your talking against religion is also becoming a favor to religion? It is because Vatican had said against the use of 'condom' and it became the news headlines and people who were not thinking about it came to think about it. Very few people had idea what this 'condom' does and see because of AIDS awareness and sex workers, this word is famous now but still not popular in use. You know about negative publicity? When one company starts publishing against its product, people are drawn to use that product and once they are there, they see it is becoming hard to leave. How smoking is increasing? Even the cigarette company publish the warning of danger. You can understand. Just religion burns one book and see the selling is on peak.
NO, I don't have to explain anything first. Eyad made a claim, and now he's being asked to back it up. He/She (sorry, i'm not sure from your name, and didn't want to assume) made the claim, the burden of proof is on them. I've made no claims in relation to whether we don't need it in my response to Eyad, thus I have nothing to defend. The ball is in Eyads court, and they need to back up their statement. That which can be stated without evidence can be rejected without evidence.Once Eyad has qualified his/her statement with evidence and explanation, then a dialogue can be entered into. If however, they provide no evidence, then everything they have said can be outright rejected and ignored.
Hazel wrote: "Vishal, its a turn of phrase, to contemplate your navel, it means to stare into space (or int he case of the phrase, you belly button) and hope the answer just comes to you, its an example of an ex..."
So what exactly you are saying that one who sit silently does not do anything. What about his food, what about to go to toilet, what about to change clothes? Now tell me to find truth if you go outside (remember I am saying yes you are right but half) then from where you start seeking truth. I mean is there mind involve? If mind is there then do you feel the need of peace in mind? If peace is not there, will mind not be confused? Where you will keep the whole data? In the mind? If in the mind or in the written pages, for sometime you need to sit silently to go through these data. Now are you referring that time is wastage?
So what exactly you are saying that one who sit silently does not do anything. What about his food, what about to go to toilet, what about to change clothes? Now tell me to find truth if you go outside (remember I am saying yes you are right but half) then from where you start seeking truth. I mean is there mind involve? If mind is there then do you feel the need of peace in mind? If peace is not there, will mind not be confused? Where you will keep the whole data? In the mind? If in the mind or in the written pages, for sometime you need to sit silently to go through these data. Now are you referring that time is wastage?
I think you're being deliberately obtuse, Vishal.
Hazel wrote: "NO, I don't have to explain anything first. Eyad made a claim, and now he's being asked to back it up. He/She (sorry, i'm not sure from your name, and didn't want to assume) made the claim, the bur..."
That is the fine and cunning reply. Now you are talking like a great debater. You are really superb and outstanding.
That is the fine and cunning reply. Now you are talking like a great debater. You are really superb and outstanding.
Hazel wrote: "I think you're being deliberately obtuse, Vishal."
Thanks, I was in need of this word 'obtuse'.
Thanks, I was in need of this word 'obtuse'.
Vishal is playing you, Hazel. In my opinion anyway.
Maria, I think so too, I'm starting to consider the word "troll"
Me too, but somehow having to explain what it means would be way too much trouble.
Maria wrote: "Vishal is playing you, Hazel. In my opinion anyway."
Please don't be hostile towards me. I am not playing with anyone. I am just trying to understand the point they are saying and believe me they have put up me in a confusion and now I am worrying about how to solve it out. Sorry if you found something tricky.
Please don't be hostile towards me. I am not playing with anyone. I am just trying to understand the point they are saying and believe me they have put up me in a confusion and now I am worrying about how to solve it out. Sorry if you found something tricky.
Thought some of you might enjoy this or learn something from it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQbk8u...and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmJQxF...
Gary wrote: "Vishal wrote: "You have said you can explain love and also the taste of food. Please feel free to explain. Also I ask you to explain the Dark matter because I have no knowledge about of it. I will ..."
One thing also Gary. You remember you have said reasoning can solve everything. Now more reasoning is needed here. To just interpret what is happening when love appears you also need to go deep down. You know when this word 'love' came in existence? When language came in existence. Now science has found the answers of the mystery of this earth but what about the mystery which is in the head of human. It is too closed and you are not finding its mystery? Find out exact explanation and then make any statement against anything. Mean while I would like you to come near the word 'hate'. We have seen love can be transformed in hate and hate can also be transformed in love. Now if hate appears then it must be hidden in love and if love appears then it must be hidden in hate. Appearance is just the product. If something appear then it must be hidden somewhere other wise how it can come immediately. If gravitation is discovered then it does not mean gravitation is a new invention. It must be there just in the form of mystery. So this whole universe is an existence and everything which is natural is the part of this existence.
Now I have another question to ask. You have said 'reasoning and compassion can decide ethics and moral of human'. Please define openly and in the form of lucidity because you know how even five years child can use today the computer. It has all happened because science knows how easy things can be more famous. It is also necessary because it is dependent on economy. Every invention is made to make economy stronger. Well it is very useful for consumer but economy is for consumer.
Psychology is a subject and it has given two major words. 'Conscious' and 'Unconscious'. I just have to see whether you can accept these words. If you can, then later I will tell you what I am thinking about but I need first your explanation.
One thing also Gary. You remember you have said reasoning can solve everything. Now more reasoning is needed here. To just interpret what is happening when love appears you also need to go deep down. You know when this word 'love' came in existence? When language came in existence. Now science has found the answers of the mystery of this earth but what about the mystery which is in the head of human. It is too closed and you are not finding its mystery? Find out exact explanation and then make any statement against anything. Mean while I would like you to come near the word 'hate'. We have seen love can be transformed in hate and hate can also be transformed in love. Now if hate appears then it must be hidden in love and if love appears then it must be hidden in hate. Appearance is just the product. If something appear then it must be hidden somewhere other wise how it can come immediately. If gravitation is discovered then it does not mean gravitation is a new invention. It must be there just in the form of mystery. So this whole universe is an existence and everything which is natural is the part of this existence.
Now I have another question to ask. You have said 'reasoning and compassion can decide ethics and moral of human'. Please define openly and in the form of lucidity because you know how even five years child can use today the computer. It has all happened because science knows how easy things can be more famous. It is also necessary because it is dependent on economy. Every invention is made to make economy stronger. Well it is very useful for consumer but economy is for consumer.
Psychology is a subject and it has given two major words. 'Conscious' and 'Unconscious'. I just have to see whether you can accept these words. If you can, then later I will tell you what I am thinking about but I need first your explanation.
Gary wrote: "Vishal wrote: "I didn't understand where you are pointing. You have given an explanation and hiding it under the word 'complex'."
Did you just stop reading when you saw the word 'complex'?
It i..."
Now you have found also a way to make division in the word love. I don't need anything except the word love. If I would say you to explain the word apple, will you ask me first to tell which apple I am talking about. Whether it is Kashmiri Apple or Western apple or green apple or red apple.
First explain the word 'love' with 'where', where it is in human mind, now 'why', why is comes in front, then 'how', how it travels from mind to the other human organs. When you have done then it is the matter what its kinds.
Did you just stop reading when you saw the word 'complex'?
It i..."
Now you have found also a way to make division in the word love. I don't need anything except the word love. If I would say you to explain the word apple, will you ask me first to tell which apple I am talking about. Whether it is Kashmiri Apple or Western apple or green apple or red apple.
First explain the word 'love' with 'where', where it is in human mind, now 'why', why is comes in front, then 'how', how it travels from mind to the other human organs. When you have done then it is the matter what its kinds.
Gary wrote: "Vishal wrote: Exactly, but one side of that reasoning denies the other and vice versa, therefore the statement is meaningless.?
Now if you already found then what can I do. You have seven options. Whether you live in this thought that the second person is wrong and you are right, or you are wrong and second person is right or neither you are wrong nor second person is right, or neither you are right nor second person is wrong or both are wrong or both are right or both are neither wrong nor right.
What ever you will choose you will still in the mind and by saying to yourself neither you will be making anything to me nor I would be affecting anything over you. It would only be your thought to fulfill what your mind needs.
Now if you already found then what can I do. You have seven options. Whether you live in this thought that the second person is wrong and you are right, or you are wrong and second person is right or neither you are wrong nor second person is right, or neither you are right nor second person is wrong or both are wrong or both are right or both are neither wrong nor right.
What ever you will choose you will still in the mind and by saying to yourself neither you will be making anything to me nor I would be affecting anything over you. It would only be your thought to fulfill what your mind needs.
Gary wrote:You see, exactly, sometimes an answer can seem reasonable out of context, but in context it is absurd.
Now in some comment you have said, you can feel the beauty. I don't know what kind of beauty you feel because when you say 'non-sense' you are talking that reasonably beauty can't be felt, actually you are defending yourself that, 'yes, you can feel beauty'. Now the poetry I had written has many other parts but you have entangled in the only first part. Have you felt any beauty in this poem? Many people who have read it, have felt enormous beauty and meaning. It is from the Hsin Hsin Ming written by Sosan, a Chinese monk.
What will happen if I write this one:-
'Thou hast made me endless, such is thy pleasure. This frail vessel thou emptiest again and again, and fillest it ever with fresh life.
This little flute of a reed thou hast carried over hills and dales, and hast breathed through it melodies eternally new.'
This poem is written by famous Nobel prize winner poet 'Rabindranath Tagore'. I know it will be total chaos to understand its meaning. But try hard and find out the beauty if only to know the words can bring any beauty.
Forgive me if I am saying something wrong because I carry negativity and forgive me if I am saying something right because I carry positivity.
Now in some comment you have said, you can feel the beauty. I don't know what kind of beauty you feel because when you say 'non-sense' you are talking that reasonably beauty can't be felt, actually you are defending yourself that, 'yes, you can feel beauty'. Now the poetry I had written has many other parts but you have entangled in the only first part. Have you felt any beauty in this poem? Many people who have read it, have felt enormous beauty and meaning. It is from the Hsin Hsin Ming written by Sosan, a Chinese monk.
What will happen if I write this one:-
'Thou hast made me endless, such is thy pleasure. This frail vessel thou emptiest again and again, and fillest it ever with fresh life.
This little flute of a reed thou hast carried over hills and dales, and hast breathed through it melodies eternally new.'
This poem is written by famous Nobel prize winner poet 'Rabindranath Tagore'. I know it will be total chaos to understand its meaning. But try hard and find out the beauty if only to know the words can bring any beauty.
Forgive me if I am saying something wrong because I carry negativity and forgive me if I am saying something right because I carry positivity.
Methinks Vishal is destroying this thread single-handed.
Vishal - go away! Many words do not a genius make -especially when they make NO sense. Bye, Vishal!
Vishal wrote: "Gary wrote:You see, exactly, sometimes an answer can seem reasonable out of context, but in context it is absurd. Now in some comment you have said, you can feel the beauty. I don't know what kin..."
I am so confused Vishal you are doing my head in!!
Hazel wrote: "I think so too, I'm starting to consider the word "troll""
First of all, thank you Hazel. Now I will be much thankful if you read this.
You are against I suppose 'sitting silently, doing nothing and contemplating the navel' or what you have made a clarification to say, 'I mean to just watching the space'.
Now what kind of scientific, reasonable minded person you are? Like professor Robert Langdon in 'Angels and Demons' says, 'I am surprised, you the people don't even have read your own history?' I would also say, 'I am surprised, you the people don't even have gone deep in the science?' Every scientist have to understand and accept the need of a peaceful mind. And no scientist is interested in any argument like this. These scientists understand the way of science so they are more one way centric people. They are more interested in the discoveries and to participate in anything like this is just the waste of their time and energy. Even a single thought apart from their own work is more for wasting their energy. Ask any musician and they will say that music is their every thing, even religion.
Now you are going against the scientific mind. Do you think Newton was thinking about the Gravitation before he came to this fact? He was in so peace of mind, just in his own space and universe and an apple had fallen down. How many times it happens in your life? Every thing is in front of you but when you sit, you think about family, friends, health, education, government. Do you think if Newton would be thinking about his family, his health, his education, the fall of an apple could have made anything? It was happening from the beginning of creation but how many have discovered it? Nothing wrong with just seeing the sky because when mind is in silence then every thing appears in its own nature and great discoveries have made through of it.
Where you are standing is nothing but just fanaticism. You fanatically believe on one thing and try to win something. But what are you trying to win? Can you tell me what this winning is meant for you? It has nothing. No matter one wins or loses, one will be a failure in both circumstances. And yes it can help you to strengthen your ego but it is not gonna to make you a seeker anyhow.
You have said, you are considering the word 'troll'. I suggest you that you do it as quickly as possible because it will give me enough proof to keep you in a specific psychological term and remember you can tell a lie and this is the problem with psychoanalysis because you tell a lie and the conclusion would be different, you tell truth, conclusion would be different and you keep silent and again conclusion would be different. It is dependable on your behavior and words. No psychologist can just open the mind and remove out anger, love, ego. Even a lie-detector can be deceived very easily. All one has to do is just understand the nature of lie and truth. It is depend on blood circulation and pulse and once one is able to control this one can deceive the lie-detector.
Have you seen the Tom Cruse starter movie, 'Minority report'? If you have seen or not let me tell you something. This is just the fiction but even in that fiction director and script writer has shown something. The police department is depend on some persons who can see future. And the boss deceives their way of seeing future. Now future becomes what he has given them to see. It is easy to deceive the pattern of mind. Until your view would not be more liberal, I see there is least hope.
Have you seen how everything is depend on the mind? Even neurosurgeon who operate the mind, can't say accurately what will happen with the person he is operating. He has learned and found a conclusion but sometime something goes wrong. And for his final report he has to depend on the patient.
Dear Hazel, I found at once what kind of personality you are carrying when you said, 'Gary, Vishal seems impressed by Osho guru', I found out where you are heading. You are carrying an ego stricken mind, less interested in exploration, more interested in victory. Tell me where I am wrong, but ask first to yourself. If you win or lose, choose any thought among the seven options I have given to Gary. It would sooth you more.
First of all, thank you Hazel. Now I will be much thankful if you read this.
You are against I suppose 'sitting silently, doing nothing and contemplating the navel' or what you have made a clarification to say, 'I mean to just watching the space'.
Now what kind of scientific, reasonable minded person you are? Like professor Robert Langdon in 'Angels and Demons' says, 'I am surprised, you the people don't even have read your own history?' I would also say, 'I am surprised, you the people don't even have gone deep in the science?' Every scientist have to understand and accept the need of a peaceful mind. And no scientist is interested in any argument like this. These scientists understand the way of science so they are more one way centric people. They are more interested in the discoveries and to participate in anything like this is just the waste of their time and energy. Even a single thought apart from their own work is more for wasting their energy. Ask any musician and they will say that music is their every thing, even religion.
Now you are going against the scientific mind. Do you think Newton was thinking about the Gravitation before he came to this fact? He was in so peace of mind, just in his own space and universe and an apple had fallen down. How many times it happens in your life? Every thing is in front of you but when you sit, you think about family, friends, health, education, government. Do you think if Newton would be thinking about his family, his health, his education, the fall of an apple could have made anything? It was happening from the beginning of creation but how many have discovered it? Nothing wrong with just seeing the sky because when mind is in silence then every thing appears in its own nature and great discoveries have made through of it.
Where you are standing is nothing but just fanaticism. You fanatically believe on one thing and try to win something. But what are you trying to win? Can you tell me what this winning is meant for you? It has nothing. No matter one wins or loses, one will be a failure in both circumstances. And yes it can help you to strengthen your ego but it is not gonna to make you a seeker anyhow.
You have said, you are considering the word 'troll'. I suggest you that you do it as quickly as possible because it will give me enough proof to keep you in a specific psychological term and remember you can tell a lie and this is the problem with psychoanalysis because you tell a lie and the conclusion would be different, you tell truth, conclusion would be different and you keep silent and again conclusion would be different. It is dependable on your behavior and words. No psychologist can just open the mind and remove out anger, love, ego. Even a lie-detector can be deceived very easily. All one has to do is just understand the nature of lie and truth. It is depend on blood circulation and pulse and once one is able to control this one can deceive the lie-detector.
Have you seen the Tom Cruse starter movie, 'Minority report'? If you have seen or not let me tell you something. This is just the fiction but even in that fiction director and script writer has shown something. The police department is depend on some persons who can see future. And the boss deceives their way of seeing future. Now future becomes what he has given them to see. It is easy to deceive the pattern of mind. Until your view would not be more liberal, I see there is least hope.
Have you seen how everything is depend on the mind? Even neurosurgeon who operate the mind, can't say accurately what will happen with the person he is operating. He has learned and found a conclusion but sometime something goes wrong. And for his final report he has to depend on the patient.
Dear Hazel, I found at once what kind of personality you are carrying when you said, 'Gary, Vishal seems impressed by Osho guru', I found out where you are heading. You are carrying an ego stricken mind, less interested in exploration, more interested in victory. Tell me where I am wrong, but ask first to yourself. If you win or lose, choose any thought among the seven options I have given to Gary. It would sooth you more.
Maria wrote: "Vishal - go away! Many words do not a genius make -especially when they make NO sense. Bye, Vishal!"You CANNOT ask someone to go away because you do not understand his/her philososphy of life ....
You are carrying an ego stricken mind, less interested in exploration, more interested in victory.no, I'm interested in the truth, as supported by the evidence and the facts. Whereas you write a lot of words, but don't really say anything.
Do you think Newton was thinking about the Gravitation before he came to this fact?
Actually, yes I do, he was thinking about well before the mythical apple incident, its interesting that you chose to believe a childs story instead of going and finding out what actually happened. He wasn't sitting quietly under a tree and have an epiphany because an apple fell, he spent years working it out, struggling with it, carrying out experiments (by the way, people have been working on gravity since Aristotle, and Galileo was famous for disproving Aristotles theory) and we still don't full understand gravity, and we won't by sitting and meditating on it. He also had lots of other concerns in his life.
Do you think if Newton would be thinking about his family, his health, his education,
He was actually a very troubled young man, and went to one of the best universities in Britain at the time, he was training to be a minister, so yes, he focused on other things. He was a physicist, mathematician, astronomer, natural philosopher, alchemist and theologian. He discovered the general binomial theorum, and did a lot with mathematics, including developing a theory that later became infinitesimal calculus. As well as gravitational theory, he developed theorums on mathematics and optics. You could at least check before writing down something so patently ridiculous. He actually worked very hard to achieve what he did, and when eh ranked top in his first school, it was because he wanted to rubhis bullies face in it (newton was from a farming family, education was not something farmers kids often got, especially ones where the father was dead, and he was needed for work, but he was so clever, the local headmaster insisted), he studied at school for revenge, to show that he was good enough to be there to the boy who made his life hell, not for the love of study.
Where you are standing is nothing but just fanaticism. You fanatically believe on one thing and try to win something. But what are you trying to win?
nothing, you're wrong, I'm not trying to "win", I am simply not accepting your rubbish, as even a cursory inspection shows it to be so much words and not much meaning.
Even a single thought apart from their own work is more for wasting their energy
don't talk rubbish, these are people, with lives, they do more than think about their work, just like a musician can claim music is their life, but still have other things they focus on too.
You paragraph about psychoanalysis makes no sense, this may be the language barrier. Try again, and we'll see if you can communicate what your trying to say in a better way.
Yes, it is easy to deceive the mind, which is why we don't rely on it when learning about the world, instead relying on instruments, repetition, peer review, and always accept that all knowledge is provisional, and can be replaced or altered if new evidence comes to light.
Anjali wrote: "Maria wrote: "Vishal - go away! Many words do not a genius make -especially when they make NO sense. Bye, Vishal!"You CANNOT ask someone to go away because you do not understand his/her philoso..."
Actually you can. Whether or not you should is another matter all together.
Anjali wrote: "Maria wrote: "Vishal - go away! Many words do not a genius make -especially when they make NO sense. Bye, Vishal!"You CANNOT ask someone to go away because you do not understand his/her philoso..."
while I agree that Maria shouldn't ask Vishal to go away on a public forum, she does actually have the right to do so, just as Vishal has the right to say no. Also, don't assume that there is a lack of understanding of his philosophy, when it could actually be a recognition of it being intellectually dishonest and disingenuous.
@ Hazel How much do you really know of the hindu Philosophy to say that its is intellectually dishonest .. or are you trying to say it is his interpretation you disagree with ...this is a Forum for exchange of ideas right? ...Each to his own.... I for example have had a couple of experiences.... near death to be exact ....which i have been saved out of ...which cannot be explained with logic ....nor can i deem it as a co-incidence ...
I am a very logic driven person ....but my spirituality is something which adds some profound sense of purpose to my goals and my deep belief which pulled me from depths of death...
It's not hindu philosophy Anjali, it's Vishal...
Hazel wrote: "You are carrying an ego stricken mind, less interested in exploration, more interested in victory.
no, I'm interested in the truth, as supported by the evidence and the facts. Whereas you write a ..."
So If Newton was doing the whole research from the beginning then it must be started from something, something from books or others believe or his self exploration. If he started from somewhere then he must have started from a believe and then to find where it is true or not. But you are here trying to go against any believe. It is the starting point. You have said a word for Newton, he was 'natural philosopher' and I suppose you are against the philosophy. Because what you are trying to establish here is that talking about philosophy is rubbish. The thoughts I am writing here is all philosophy and philosophy comes from the same mind from where the discoveries come. Now you are supporting west and saying all east was doing was all rubbish.
Now there is no language barrier. And I don't suppose any more easier language can be written. All philosophies are created by man and go deep in every philosophies and you will surely find out, in every philosophies there are certain mistakes. What you are talking about is just beyond the mind. You say don't believe on this rubbish but then why not make clarifications about your thoughts from where a man should to start seeking truth.
You have all authority to say anything against anyone but first solve out this mind because all is here.
Now anyone can read about Newton on wikipedia but question is not about Newton or what he was and what others were doing. Question is just when reality happens. Is it happens in a peaceful mind or in a chaos? I have found in a chaos sometime reality happens also but it needs total chaos.
Now when I asked you, how can a person sit for long? he must have some other works to do. Then you come near to consider a word 'troll' but when I make a statement you say, every scientists have to maintain their personal life also. Now have you come near what I am saying? I suppose it would be still hard and until it makes any sense you are ready to say 'all rubbish'. Yes scientists maintain their personal life, like every one and it can't be happen that they stop breathing for finding truth but from where I am saying is just their way, they are following.
Now this whole existence is a philosophy and every thing is hidden here, I have already told you. But you are insistent enough to say 'no, this can be only find out' but how something can be found out if it is not there. East is also trying to find out but what here you represent is that east has nothing. Now are you trying to say before west enters in east, people in east were living in miserable, poverty stricken conditions?
no, I'm interested in the truth, as supported by the evidence and the facts. Whereas you write a ..."
So If Newton was doing the whole research from the beginning then it must be started from something, something from books or others believe or his self exploration. If he started from somewhere then he must have started from a believe and then to find where it is true or not. But you are here trying to go against any believe. It is the starting point. You have said a word for Newton, he was 'natural philosopher' and I suppose you are against the philosophy. Because what you are trying to establish here is that talking about philosophy is rubbish. The thoughts I am writing here is all philosophy and philosophy comes from the same mind from where the discoveries come. Now you are supporting west and saying all east was doing was all rubbish.
Now there is no language barrier. And I don't suppose any more easier language can be written. All philosophies are created by man and go deep in every philosophies and you will surely find out, in every philosophies there are certain mistakes. What you are talking about is just beyond the mind. You say don't believe on this rubbish but then why not make clarifications about your thoughts from where a man should to start seeking truth.
You have all authority to say anything against anyone but first solve out this mind because all is here.
Now anyone can read about Newton on wikipedia but question is not about Newton or what he was and what others were doing. Question is just when reality happens. Is it happens in a peaceful mind or in a chaos? I have found in a chaos sometime reality happens also but it needs total chaos.
Now when I asked you, how can a person sit for long? he must have some other works to do. Then you come near to consider a word 'troll' but when I make a statement you say, every scientists have to maintain their personal life also. Now have you come near what I am saying? I suppose it would be still hard and until it makes any sense you are ready to say 'all rubbish'. Yes scientists maintain their personal life, like every one and it can't be happen that they stop breathing for finding truth but from where I am saying is just their way, they are following.
Now this whole existence is a philosophy and every thing is hidden here, I have already told you. But you are insistent enough to say 'no, this can be only find out' but how something can be found out if it is not there. East is also trying to find out but what here you represent is that east has nothing. Now are you trying to say before west enters in east, people in east were living in miserable, poverty stricken conditions?
If something is not there to be found out, we can conclude that it doesn't exist.Oh, and that last sentence, stop putting words I haven't even alluded to, let alone outright said, into my mouth, You are all over the place, you can't hold a discussion without talking about trivialities and going off on pointless, meaningless tangents, and trying to dress it up as some sort of spiritual awareness. You simply state unsubstantiated things, don't give evidence, and never actually respond honestly to anything being said. As such, I'm done with you,as you can't follow the basic rules of discussion.
Hazel wrote: "You are carrying an ego stricken mind, less interested in exploration, more interested in victory.
no, I'm interested in the truth, as supported by the evidence and the facts. Whereas you write a ..."
No more better way is there. I don't need anything to make you understand. It already there. If you can't understand a book, it is your problem and not the problem of writer. All you can do is just throw the book in gutter but nothing more a writer can do. Go till the end of your life and imagine where the life is going, what is it purpose, why there is diversity in thoughts, why the plant is growing and giving fruit, why life is moving, why air is blowing, why there is sea, why the sun giving light. And please don't start seeing the plant is growing because it is thinking about you. Find out yourself and then I suppose from where I am talking about you will understand.
Here is something:-
In a seminar one day a scholar was talking about philosophy but some of them who were sitting there got bored so they asked the scholar to talk from above level and not the normal things so the scholar kept his chair on the table and continued what he was talking.
no, I'm interested in the truth, as supported by the evidence and the facts. Whereas you write a ..."
No more better way is there. I don't need anything to make you understand. It already there. If you can't understand a book, it is your problem and not the problem of writer. All you can do is just throw the book in gutter but nothing more a writer can do. Go till the end of your life and imagine where the life is going, what is it purpose, why there is diversity in thoughts, why the plant is growing and giving fruit, why life is moving, why air is blowing, why there is sea, why the sun giving light. And please don't start seeing the plant is growing because it is thinking about you. Find out yourself and then I suppose from where I am talking about you will understand.
Here is something:-
In a seminar one day a scholar was talking about philosophy but some of them who were sitting there got bored so they asked the scholar to talk from above level and not the normal things so the scholar kept his chair on the table and continued what he was talking.
Anjali wrote: "@ Hazel How much do you really know of the hindu Philosophy to say that its is intellectually dishonest .. or are you trying to say it is his interpretation you disagree with ...this is a Forum for..."I wasn't discussing hindu philosophy, I was discussing Vishals, who has decided to inform himself using the teachings of Osho, who was considered at least a little heretical by the leaders of the hindu faith, and is considered to be new age, not hindu. At least read whats going on before commenting, please.
Shanna wrote: "Anjali wrote: "Maria wrote: "Vishal - go away! Many words do not a genius make -especially when they make NO sense. Bye, Vishal!"
You CANNOT ask someone to go away because you do not understand ..."
An interesting same thing had happened with Hitler. But instead of saying 'go away' he began to do 'go in grave' and then when there was no one to dominate he began dominating the world. Do not be fool, for any domination, it needs someone who can be dominated.
You CANNOT ask someone to go away because you do not understand ..."
An interesting same thing had happened with Hitler. But instead of saying 'go away' he began to do 'go in grave' and then when there was no one to dominate he began dominating the world. Do not be fool, for any domination, it needs someone who can be dominated.
godwins law hits, conversation over.
@ Hazel i did read the Posts before i put a comment... This is not my native language and its is sometimes difficult for me to intepret something... :(... in my search of knowledge ..hopefully there is a way my english will improve over time
I am not a great fan of OSHO though ....i disagree with most of the stuff he propogated ...
I am more of a fan of the vedic or the Bhagvad Gita philosophy :)
Are you seriously comparing an online conversation with "the Nazi final solution"? I'm questioning your grasp on reality now...
Shanna wrote: "It's not hindu philosophy Anjali, it's Vishal..."
Now it is too much Shanna. Hindu philosophy? It seems you have gone through many philosophies. Now all you got from me is that just the word Hindu philosophy?
Now it is too much Shanna. Hindu philosophy? It seems you have gone through many philosophies. Now all you got from me is that just the word Hindu philosophy?
Anjali wrote: "@ Hazel i did read the Posts before i put a comment... This is not my native language and its is sometimes difficult for me to intepret something... :(... in my search of knowledge ..hopefully the..."
Yes, language barriers can be hard, but frankly, your english is far better than my hindi (or whatever language you speak natively, if its not hindi), I have a spattering of broken german on top of english, so I'm always impressed that anyone can manage a conversation in a second language.
I've never read the Bhaghavad Gita, but I intend to, its just a case of finding a good translation in my local library... and wading through the vast list of other books I intend to read too...
Considering we have hardly "spoken" to each other I doubt you have any idea of my philosophies. The phrase hindu philosphy was a term Anjali used and I responded that it wasn't that, the philosophies, that were the problem it was you. What I have gotten from your posts is a lot of wordy nonsense.
Shanna wrote: "Considering we have hardly "spoken" to each other I doubt you have any idea of my philosophies. The phrase hindu philosphy was a term Anjali used and I responded that it wasn't that, the philosophi..."
Thank you!
Thank you!
Shanna, remember, godwins law, conversation over :D
Oh yeah! I was momentarily stupefied!
Hazel wrote: "Shanna, remember, godwins law, conversation over :D"
Please Hazel don't try to keep me in a category. I was from the beginning not talking about the God and its laws. But it is okay if you have coined me a rubbish and a person who don't know how to be in a forum. Thank you!
Please Hazel don't try to keep me in a category. I was from the beginning not talking about the God and its laws. But it is okay if you have coined me a rubbish and a person who don't know how to be in a forum. Thank you!
Vishal wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Shanna, remember, godwins law, conversation over :D"
Please Hazel don't try to keep me in a category. I was from the beginning not talking about the God and its laws. But it is okay ..."
My first comment was 'My religion is universal and my science is absolute'. But when you start asking in a sense of religion which are now in this world then what I will do rather than to give answers. I am not the person of one side and if you drag me at one side then it is difficult for me to comprehend.
Please Hazel don't try to keep me in a category. I was from the beginning not talking about the God and its laws. But it is okay ..."
My first comment was 'My religion is universal and my science is absolute'. But when you start asking in a sense of religion which are now in this world then what I will do rather than to give answers. I am not the person of one side and if you drag me at one side then it is difficult for me to comprehend.
Science is never absolute, so you've gone wrong right from the beginning, every scientist knows that all knowledge is provisional, as it may turn out there's evidence to change what they currently think. Science is not absolute.Oops, like shanna, so stupefied, I forgot, godwins law = conversation over.
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I didn't understand where you are pointing. You have given an explanation and hiding it under the word 'complex'. This is hardly an explanation because when we explain we just not take the word 'what' but we also include 'how', 'why', 'where' and there is hardly anything that is about the explanation 'love'. You are showing interest in the word 'love' that people use. Please be more specific with the word 'love' and see it in term of a single person.
Try another explanation.