Japanese Literature discussion
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Some Prefer Nettles
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07/2017 Some Prefer Nettles, by Jun’ichirō Tanizaki
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Oh, I still have to get my copy! Thanks for the reminder haha :)
Christian wrote: "Oh, I still have to get my copy! Thanks for the reminder haha :)"Exactly! This seemed a tad more gracious but it ain't nothing but a reminder message :)
My copy arrived today. Sadly, I've barely read any literature from Japan save some extracts we covered during a comparative literature course at university, so I'm looking forward to changing that.
Sofia wrote: "My copy arrived today. Sadly, I've barely read any literature from Japan save some extracts we covered during a comparative literature course at university, so I'm looking forward to changing that."And at 202 pages, it won't feel like an assignment! I'm glad you're joining this read, Sofia.
Carol wrote: "Sofia wrote: "My copy arrived today. Sadly, I've barely read any literature from Japan save some extracts we covered during a comparative literature course at university, so I'm looking forward to ..."Most definitely won't! :) Looking forward to the discussion!
Sofia,If you don't like Some Prefer Nettles, please don't let that color your impression of all Japanese literature. Tanizaki can be a bit 'perverse'. I haven't read this one yet, but from the title I expect this book to lean that way.
Bill wrote: "Sofia,If you don't like Some Prefer Nettles, please don't let that color your impression of all Japanese literature. Tanizaki can be a bit 'perverse'. I haven't read this one yet, but from the ti..."
Thanks for the heads up Bill! I've been doing some reading about Tanizaki: he was quite an interesting character to say the least! I thought I'd share this article: www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2015/04/...
Interesting article, Sofia!I have only read The Key ages ago, which I really liked, but I haven't got around to reading his other books. When I do though, I'd really like to read The Makioka Sisters. I may try to persuade this group at some point to pick that one :). Seems it has been picked as a book club selection many years ago here, but they had a different set of people then. I also have a copy of The Secret History of the Lord of Musashi & Arrowroot which I heard good things about.
Dioni (Bookie Mee) wrote: "Interesting article, Sofia!I have only read The Key ages ago, which I really liked, but I haven't got around to reading his other books. When I do though, I'd really like to read [bo..."
Ooh I think I am going to read The Key next. It looks really interesting: quite Lady Chatterley-esque! I'd definitely be up for The Makioka Sisters as well. Are you planning to read Some Prefer Nettles?
Sofia wrote: "Ooh I think I am going to read The Key next. It looks really interesting: quite Lady Chatterley-esque! I'd definitely be up for The Makioka Sisters as well. Are you planning to read Some Prefer Nettles? "I can't commit to Some Prefer Nettles this month unfortunately, as I'm on other books and I don't even have a copy yet. Wish you guys a good read and discussion though :). I'll be joining next month's Black Rain.
Yes I found The Key to be very interesting, but it seems to trigger very mixed reactions from people. Looks like there are many ways to take the book and different ways to read it. When I read people's reviews sometimes it feels like we were reading a different book! Though I read it in 2008, so I'm not sure how I'd feel reading it now.
I haven't read The Key, but I own The Makioka Sisters and The Gourmet Club: A Sextet, neither of which I've read. I'm up for a read of Makioka any time. I started Nettles last evening and am at page 50, effortlessly. This is a fast read in my opinion. I started to read the Intro, then determined to wait until after finishing.
Thanks for that link, Sofia.
I have also read only a bit of the intro but decided to read the rest after finishing.I just finished chapter two. I feel the same you do, Carol, it's a surprisingly fast read!
Just for fun, I decided to look up Bungoro (the puppet master):
I'm so glad you shared these, Carola, I was really intrigued by the description of the puppet theater, especially in contrast to then-Western puppets. All pre-Muppets, of course. These images are great.
The discussion in Chapter 5 of whether one season or another is optimal for divorce, and why, is priceless. In one of those reading coincidences that happens to us all from time to time, this morning I finished a novel, So Long, See You Tomorrow, that is primarily about the gut-wrenching impact on two boys of Hiroshi's age of a divorce and separation, respectively, of two couples. As a result, the portions of the book, so far, that focus on his fears and concerns are hitting me hard.
I am enjoying this novel very much. Tanizaki paints life not in black and white but rather in the grey tones of indecision and unclear resolution.Kaname, and probably by autobiographical extension Tanizaki himself, is fascinated and confused but the different facets of his attraction to women. I caught the term ‘woman worship’ four times, on pages 37, 59, 60 and 116. From page 60, Takanatsu advises Kaname ‘….. you really should have stayed single. All woman worshippers should be single. They never find the woman who answers all the requirements……’.
Sorry for the lack of a self-introduction. I am very new to Goodreads. I lived in Japan for a few years and became interested in Japanese culture and Japanese history, and how both were depicted by Japanese novelists. I have just returned to America from several years in China carrying the same interest about China and its novelists.
It is quite a short novel. My copy is 200 pages, but the text is not crammed onto the pages. It's generous margins and wide spacing.My copy is from 1981, translated and with an introduction by Seidensticker in 1955. I recommend against reading the introduction: it's full of spoilers.
The novel doesn't, of course, go into detail about the play Love Suicides at Sonezaki because everyone in Japan knows the plot already. It's available in translation in Donald Keene's Four Plays of Chikamatsu. There's also an excellent movie adaption available from Criterion titled Double Suicide.If anyone wants a summary, just ask.
i read (somewhere) that Soseki Natsume is how the Japanese would like to see themselves... and Tanizaki Jun'ichiro is how the Japanese are... basically reserved, mild, thoughtful vs slightly perverse... something to think about. i have read several of both authors but on the other i have never lived in Japan...
Bill wrote: "The novel doesn't, of course, go into detail about the play Love Suicides at Sonezaki because everyone in Japan knows the plot already. It's available in translation in Donald Keene's Four Plays of..."Asking ...
Bill wrote: "It is quite a short novel. My copy is 200 pages, but the text is not crammed onto the pages. It's generous margins and wide spacing.My copy is from 1981, translated and with an introduction by Se..."
Mine is 224 pages and has the intro Seidensticker wrote in the 50s. That was odd, for me - the datedness of the introduction -- but I haven't finished it yet. I got 25% into it and was ready to read the book already.
Chikamatsu Monzaemon is generally thought of as the top playwright of the Genroku period (1688-1704), the flowering of early Edo period high culture. Other prominent names of the period are Ihara Saikaku in fiction and Matsuo Basho in haiku. Chikamatsu wrote both Kabuki and Bunraku plays.The "double suicide / love suicide" play predates Chikamatsu by a decade or so. I don't recall the author or title of the original play, but it wasn't very good and others rewrote the theme into better plays. Still it was a sudden hit, which is why all the imitators. The play also influenced love-struck couples to commit suicide, which continued to fuel the craze for such plays. Chikamatsu's Love Suicides at Sonezaki is based on a couple who killed themselves after being influenced by an earlier play. Chikamatsu wrote several other "love suicide at xxx" plays after Sonezaki, because the crowds wanted more. The one they see in Some Prefer Nettles isn't Sonezaki but his later, longer Love Suicides at Amijima.
The very short summary is: struggling merchant falls in love with prostitute, can't afford to buy her freedom, and goes broke visiting her. The two escape and run away together, but there's nowhere in Edo Japan to run from the law, so they choose to be together in death and kill themselves.
It's probably easier to just link to the wikipedia summary of this specific play:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lov...
Tsuyunoten Shrine in Sonezaki, Osaka is dedicated to the couple in Love Suicide at Sonezaki. It's not what you would call 'outside the city' but the city has grown a lot in the last 300+ years.
http://www.tuyutenjin.com/en/
It's something to see if you're shopping in Umeda.
Bill wrote: "Chikamatsu Monzaemon is generally thought of as the top playwright of the Genroku period (1688-1704), the flowering of early Edo period high culture. Other prominent names of the period are Ihara S..."Bill, this is very helpful and thank you. Fascinating.
Is this play an ironic comment on the protagonists passion-less marriage?
I'm halfway through, just after the point where (view spoiler). This is an unscholarly reaction: Kaname is just such a jerk! The play, to my mind, highlights the gap in both of these relationships.
the gift wrote: "Is this play an ironic comment on the protagonists passion-less marriage?"Interesting observation. To me, Tanizaki is presenting and contrasting for the reader different types of relationships with different qualities and degrees of passion. He sets the stage (literally) by starting with the passion expressed by the inanimate puppets in the Bunraku play. ‘… there was in them (Western puppets) none of the force and urgency of living flesh….. the Bunraku puppets, on the other hand, were worked from inside so the surge of life was actually present ….. ‘.
I found interesting the evolution of my perception of the character of O-Hisa in Tanizaki’s examination of relationships. From page 7 Tanizaki gives his initial introduction of O-Hisa :
Kaname : I read somewhere the other day that men who are too fond of the ladies when they are young generally turn into antique-collectors when they get old. Tea sets and paintings take the place of sex.
Masako : But father hasn't exactly given up sex. He still has O-hisa.
Kaname : She is one of the antiques in his collection. Exactly like an old doll.
Are not the arrangements of kaname similar to a playwright in organizing what roles each 'puppet' / character has, to such extent that for example O-hisa can be thought a perfect living 'doll'?
At the halfway point now, as Carol was yesterday, so I read her spoiler and will respond with one of my own ^_^(view spoiler)
Bill wrote: "At the halfway point now, as Carol was yesterday, so I read her spoiler and will respond with one of my own ^_^I don't see Kaname's actions at the halfway point as being jerky. He's not Misako's ..."
(view spoiler)
I am not finished yet but I have to say... I find all the characters surprisingly likable? (view spoiler)On the whole I'm enjoying this novel a lot more than I thought I would. I have this kneejerk reaction against the 'standard' literature of many countries (i.e. in the Netherlands that's WWII trauma literature, in Japan it's the "omg modernization!" lit). I find it tiresome most of the time, if you've read one novel you've read them all... But if you're going to read one novel with the modernization-in-Japan theme, it might as well be this one.
My 1970s copy has completely fallen apart btw, the cover and the back just fell off haha...
Carola wrote: "I am not finished yet but I have to say... I find all the characters surprisingly likable? [spoilers removed]On the whole I'm enjoying this novel a lot more than I thought I would. I have this kne..."
I agree with you, Carola! I like them all, including her dad. It's like a very well done movie about a dysfunctional family.
That's quite funny about your copy falling apart whilst you read, btw.
I can't say I enjoyed the novel as a whole, but I did enjoy certain aspects of the various "acts". I say acts rather than scenes, because it breaks cleanly into four parts: the puppet theatre, Takanatsu's visit, Awaji, and meeting with father.I most enjoyed the family banter in Act Two, and the raucous background in Act Three. In the end, I can't say I enjoyed the main plot. All the action occurs before the novel begins or after it ends. We're stuck in the indecisive middle where no one chooses and nothing changes. As Seidensticker says, Tanizaki wanted people to make up there own minds about where the novel goes from here. Sure, that's something I do with a lot of novels before I finish them, but I expect the author to put some effort into choosing and developing an ending. In that, Tanizaki is as bad as Kaname.
Carola,Regarding "standard literature" themes, I find Japanese authors of the generation I'm mostly likely to read milking war experiences to be the most annoying and repetitive. Yes, everyone in Japan was affected by the war, but it wasn't their entire lives.
Modernization, on the other hand, was the entire lives of the people who lived through it, so it's inevitable that it will be included in all their books. Both rapid technological and social changes can't be ignored when writing about your own time period, and it's probably what their audiences wanted to read about as well. The only problem I see is that pre-war authors are almost all pro-modernization. One of the novel themes of Spring Snow and Runaway Horses was that they were set in that time period and were in some ways strongly anti-modernization.
this is not tanizaki's best work, or perhaps i prefer his characters more... obsessed, perverse, obtuse, such as the lover in 'Naomi'... or the 'diary of the old man' or the lover in 'the key'... on the other i have not read 'the makioka sisters'
If I may offer a somewhat different personal perspective, I think a large part of my enjoyment of reading this book was that the book itself seems to reflects Kaname’s own dilemma, i.e. that there is no clearly best resolution. Tanizaki presents contrasting options throughout the book (modern vs traditional Japan / Tokyo vs Osaka / Awaji theatre vs Osaka theatre) which he expects his readers to consider without clearly signaling his own preference. Perhaps he does not give us more guidance because he is challenging us to deal with the same dilemma that he himself faced at that time in his life.
Neotony, I agree with your analysis.I finished a moment ago. IMO, the portion set in Awaji could have been omitted without any loss to the novel. It interfered with the arc and didn't add anything either to the overall themes of tradition/modernization/excess Western influence. Other than that, however, SPN was excellent. I loved Tanazaki's writing. Someone preferring plot over writing might be excused for being irritated with this novel, but that's not me. I found the ending to be well-done and appropriate.
Dioni (Bookie Mee) wrote: "Interesting article, Sofia!I have only read The Key ages ago, which I really liked, but I haven't got around to reading his other books. When I do though, I'd really like to read [bo..."
Btw, I would certainly be in for a group read of Makioka Sisters. Any time.
Carol wrote: "Btw, I would certainly be in for a group read of Makioka Sisters. Any time. "I think I would be up for that as well. This is easily my favorite book I've read in this club so far!
Finished it earlier today at work and couldn't decide what I wanted to say. I don't have a lot of time (what with a new baby taking up most of my free time... took me almost a week to finish it despite the short length!) but I wanted to get this post before the day was over.
The book is ambiguous to the point of frustration. I found myself pondering throughout the novel, do they not want a divorce or do they and they are simply too lazy? It was frustrating, but intriguing. Which leads me to the slight problem that there is nothing definitive to grasp for a group like this and say “aha! This is what the novel is really about!”. Instead I must offer an interpretation, that many may or may not utterly disagree with.
(view spoiler)
Beyond that, I just have got to say that I really enjoyed the book overall. Interestingly I found that after a while of reading, I found myself imagining the characters less as people, and more as puppets all manipulated by the author. All emotions showed through subtle gestures while emotions stayed off the actual faces in my imagination.
Tim, I liked your comments very much. The book seems to start with a modern versus traditional theme but then Tanizaki introduces various forms of shading into what could have been a much less interesting black and white presentation. The Makioka Sisters is a wonderful novel but you may wish to consider the time commitment. It is a much longer read.
Thank you Neotony. I find the shades of gray throughout the novel to be very much part of the charm. I'm not too worried about the length of Makioka Sisters. Worst case scenario, I cut out some of my other reading during that month.
Some information about Tanizaki, Kawabata and Mishima as related to the Nobel Prize for Literature. I have paraphrased this information from a short, wonderful book by Donald Keene (see below) titled ‘5 Modern Japanese Novelists’ which I stumbled across in a used book store in Shanghai a few years ago. The first Japanese to win the Nobel Prize for Literature was Kawabata in 1968, coincidental with the 100th anniversary of the Japanese Meiji Restoration of 1868 which was one of the signature events in the opening up of Japan to the outside world. Only one Asian (Rabindranath Tagore of India in 1913) had previously won the Nobel Prize for Literature. There had been speculation on which Asian writer might receive the award for a few years previous to the announcement of Kawabata’s win in 1968. In 1964 the French Press announced (incorrectly) that Tanizaki had won and reporters flocked to Tanizaki’s house. But by 1968 Tanizaki was dead. The award was given ‘… in this geographically controlled competition ….’ to Kawabata. Mishima was also considered a prime candidate for the award, especially as Dag Hammarskjold from Sweden had expressed his great admiration for Mishima’s writing in a letter to the Nobel Prize committee. Hammarskjold was the Secretary General of the United Nations and therefore quite naturally a man of tremendous influence globally and in Sweden.
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Donald Keene is one of the great foreign commentators on Japanese literature. Perhaps the greatest. Keene and Edward Seidensticker, the translator of ‘Some Prefer Nettles’ and of many other books by Tanzaki, Kawabata and Mishima, studied Japanese together at the U.S. Navy Japanese Language school in the mid-1940’s.
Neotony21 wrote: "I think a large part of my enjoyment of reading this book was that the book itself seems to reflects Kaname’s own dilemma, i.e. that there is no clearly best resolution."Same here. As Carola said, it seems modernization is one of the unavoidable topics of Japanese literature, but here it didn't feel like a pretext for Tanizaki to force his point of view (such as The River Ki haha, still holding grudge). It's here in the background: reading magazines vs practicing calligraphy, few dolls makers left, divorce has become more or less accepted, modern bath vs. old bath etc. but his characters aren't either for or against, they are just living through it. It didn't feel like the story was constructed around that theme.
I personnally really like how Kaname and Misako are both undecisive. (view spoiler) I wouldn't call them jerks for being hesitant, we really get to see how it's a difficult decision for both of them.
Christian wrote: "Neotony21 wrote: "I think a large part of my enjoyment of reading this book was that the book itself seems to reflects Kaname’s own dilemma, i.e. that there is no clearly best resolution."Same he..."
Just for clarity, his hesitancy is not what makes me place him in the jerk bucket. :)
Totally agree about the manner in which Tanizaki handles modernity vs tradition --successfully.
I enjoyed this book very much. I loved the ambiguous ending-- so much media (including books) tends to take us by the hand at the beginning and walk us through it step by step, indicating where in the story we should have which reaction.Tanazaki's style feels much more geared to real life-- everybody we know is partway through some story of their life, and even if we get glimpses of what is happening, we will never know all of it.
I liked all of the characters in the book to varying degrees. I did feel impatient with Kaname at times when he was getting weepy about losing Misako; after all, it was his coldness toward her that set the wedge between them. I hope Misako has a happy future with Aso, but some of the comments make him sound just as indecisive as Kaname. It is a shame that her happiness seems to depend on the whims of her men, rather than from living life for herself. I also understand the impatience that Takanatsu feels with them. I once had a friend who was in an abusive relationship. She used to call me at all hours of the day and night to cry and complain about how horrible her life was. I was very worried and upset about her situation, and did my best to help. I was living in a good-sized house at the time with extra rooms, and I was working a good job. I offered a number of times that she could bring her son and live with me; I would support her until she got back on her feet, or I would give her the money she needed to go home to her family. She always came up with excuses for not leaving her abuser. I finally had to tell her that until she was willing to do something to help herself she could not call me anymore, because all the stress of interrupted sleep and worry was starting to affect my health and job.
I feel really sorry for their young son; sensing the tension and indecision hanging in the air, yet never having it explained or resolved must have been awful.
Japanese Literature
Books mentioned in this topic
The River Ki (other topics)The Key (other topics)
Four Major Plays of Chikamatsu (other topics)
So Long, See You Tomorrow (other topics)
The Makioka Sisters (other topics)
More...
I'm looking forward to reading this and discussing it with our group. It's my first novel by Tanizaki, although I read (and loved) his non-fiction book, In Search of Shadows earlier this year.
When you're ready, share your initial thoughts and impressions.