World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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How to back up human memory and save consciousness? -:)
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I don't know if its scientifically possible, but it seems wrong to me, morally. The clone would have your same dna and memories, but its not really you. Its an entirely different entity, with its own seperate consciousness. If, hypothetically, i were to be cloned long after i'm dead, the clone wouldn't be me. I am gone. I don't suddenly "come back to life." Although, the clone, since it has my memories, may feel that way. As a (not great)example, there is this movie I've seen that shows a similar situation:The movie 'Astro Boy'(based on a japanese manga) is about a robot with the memories and appearance of a young boy. The robot was created by a scientist who lost his son in a lab accident. Once given "life", 'astro boy' believes that he is really a real boy, the scientist's son. He at first has no idea he is a robot. The scientist soon realizes that the robot he created cannot fill the hole in his heart from the loss of his son, so he throws 'astro boy' out. Thats when 'astro boy' realizes he is a robot. He is "emotionally" devastated. He thought he was the scientist's son, when in reality the the scientist's real son was long gone.
The idea of cloning people seems like it would be weird for everyone involved. The clone may feel like they arent "real" or worth anything because they arent the original. Because of this, they could become depressed or even suicidal(assuming they have the same emotional capability of the average non-clone person). Anyone alive who once knew the original person is probably never going to be able to see the clone as the person they once knew.
Something more like "Johnny Mnemonic" would become reality first. That is a simpler task that replicating a mind. Plus, it would provide a lot of useful techniques and insights that might prove as pre-requisites for eventually cloning a mind.There are already procedures for blind people (they might still be experimental, I don't know) where visual signals are transmitted to the brain via an implanted mesh wired to cameras. Can you see the light?
Artsy wrote: "I don't know if its scientifically possible, but it seems wrong to me, morally. The clone would have your same dna and memories, but its not really you. Its an entirely different entity, with its o..."That's a thought-provoking input. BTW, we have an entire discussion here on cloning, if you want to expand your input and refer:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I guess a memory stick would raise less moral dilemmas. I would appreciate one at least, as spending a few thousand dollars to travel far away and then forgetting the details after a few months is annoying. There are some other memories to be safekept too -:)
The question is who is really 'you'? Me 10 years ago, apart from physically 10kg less, is also a different person with a different consciousness -:).
When an organ is donated postmortem to someone, maybe some people believe their loved one still lives to a degree within someone else, since for example his/her heart keeps living in another body..
A multiple angle issue...
J.N. wrote: "Can you see the light? ..."Quite a lot of parts of human body are already replaceable with artificially manufactured ones: from joints to entire limbs, some of them - even already 3d printable.
I guess the time might come when the science/medicine will know how to fix the hard disc... err, sorry - the brain
Nik wrote: "Artsy wrote: "I don't know if its scientifically possible, but it seems wrong to me, morally. The clone would have your same dna and memories, but its not really you. Its an entirely different enti..."As far as backing up our own memories for our own brain(not a clones), that could be a good idea. But at the same time, maybe certain events aren't meant to be remembered. I think if we remembered everything, some events that we would normally see as important may not be seen that way, becauase we remember just as much of that event as every other. They would be less special. And some events may be better blocked from memory(traumatic events and such). If you could use this "memory stick" to remember only certain events, then it could maybe be a good thing. It could maybe even help prevent dementia/Alzheimers.
As far as the consciousness thing, i guess it depends on how you look at it. What your beliefs are. If you believe in "souls", maybe that would change your perspective. I'm not sure if i believe in such a thing, but i do believe that my consciousness would be seperate from a clone of myself. I guess you could look at consciousness as a changing thing through time as well. After all, i can't just go into the mind of my past or future self. But i still feel like all versions of myself through out my life are ME, if that makes any sense. I just don't feel like a clone could even come close to truly being me. I could be wrong, of course. But that's how i feel.
And i have heard of people with organ transplants gaining new interests after the operation. Interests that the donor had. As if pieces of a person's personality can be found in, and passed on through, random organs. Heart. Kidney. Spleen. I don't know how to explain that or how that works, but it is fascinating.
Elon Musk's company, NeuralLink is trying to come up with a way to essentially put a chip in the brain that would help with a variety of things, memory included... "Wait but why" (Tim Urban's blog) has a fantastic write up about it:https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neural....
I personally think it's a fantastic idea to help evolve away from that oh so foolish lizard brain of mine.
Artsy wrote: "And i have heard of people with organ transplants gaining new interests after the operation. Interests that the donor had. As if pieces of a person's personality can be found in, and passed on thro..."My friend, a 65-year-old white male, received a heart transplant from a 23-year-old black male. The recipient told me that he began to like foods that he had never eaten previously and music he'd never enjoyed before the transplant.
Andy wrote: ""Wait but why" (Tim Urban's blog) has a fantastic write up about it:https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neural......."
A lengthy, but interesting stuff. Looks like we are going towards becoming cyborgs next century (unless, of course, exterminated before that). I'm in those 70% worried respondents, but don't rule it out....
Scout wrote: "My friend, a 65-year-old white male, received a heart transplant from a 23-year-old black male. The recipient told me that he began to like foods that he had never eaten previously and music he'd never enjoyed before the transplant. ..."Cool stuff!
Artsy wrote: "If you believe in "souls", maybe that would change your perspective..."Not so much, however my belief or disbelief doesn't influence their existence or nonexistence -:)
If the consciousnesses is us and having it 'saved' somewhere to be restoreable in cyberspace, in metal or bionic body - it's immortality with all ensuing moral dilemmas though ...
Nik wrote: A lengthy, but interesting stuff. Looks like we are going towards becoming cyborgs next century (unless, of course, exterminated before that). I'm in those 70% worried respondents..."Yeah I think that article clocked in at 38k words or so, took me a while to read through, especially following some of those extra pathways (read, interesting links) that kept popping up...
I think there's definitely plenty cause for concern, I just hope we all lean more towards a motivational type concern to be proactive with solutions as opposed to a debilitating fear of change and new tech... however, per Stephen Hawking, we probably won't make it out of this century so yeah, I'll just keep trying to curtail the foolishness of my lizard brain until the next war or robot overlords (advanced AI) do me in :)
Well, things have a way of working out. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, leading to Hitler's defeat. German refugees helped create the A bomb that ended the war. The Cuban Missile Crisis was averted by a playboy President. The Cold War was suspended. Plans to stop Kim Jong Un are in the works. In the grand scheme of things - planet-altering things - it's gone well overall. I choose optimism regarding the future. AI may be a good thing, but I won't be here to see the outcome.
Things always work out, but not necessarily well. Whatever else happens, nobody can stop the future from turning up. What the near future will look like depends on what we do now.
Agreed. Please forgive me for being off topic when I say that I'm very concerned about what's happening to our planet. Which thread would be best for this discussion?
Scout, if necessary, you could start y0ur own thread. I rather fancy it would be popular.
I'd rather you started it. You've much more experience at posting interesting topics.
Scout wrote: "I'd rather you started it. You've much more experience at posting interesting topics."Ha, a challenge. I shall see what I can do - but tomorrow.
Challenge met. There should be a way to market your talent for coming up with interesting topics of discussion.
Scout wrote: "Challenge met. There should be a way to market your talent for coming up with interesting topics of discussion."I have tried it by writing futuristic novels, but I don't think that is the way to make much money. The current evidence supports that :-)
Or should it be :-( ?
I'm not a writer, can't imagine writing something and putting it out there for others to criticize or, hopefully, enjoy. It would take courage and confidence, I think. And a certain amount of optimism.
Would you back-up your memories if given such an opportunity or is our brain doing a fine job, deleting less pleasant ones and keeping most memorable? -:)
It takes a lot of hubris to assume the future will want your consciousness.
I'm not sure I want it too) The future may want it for evaluation of primitive minds like if we could have that of a Java Man
Perhaps good memories are more dangerous than bad memories. If you are actively curating your digital memories, pain motivates you to delete or ignore your bad memories. However good memories trigger an endorphin release. Think about all of the people you know who peaked early. Imagine if instead of reliving their glory days by retelling the story ad infinitum, they could literally re-experience those moments as they experienced them the first time. Would they ever stop? How many people would remain mired in their memories rather than living?As a corollary to memory addiction, could perfect memory lead to a kind of intellectual stasis? We can currently see numerous people who have ensconced themselves in political echo chambers. What if you don't need to find others who agree with you to form an echo chamber because you can do it with your digital backup?
J. That sounds like a variation of hell.
The more that I think about it, the stranger it gets.Let's say that your backup somehow includes the ineffable elements that give rise to your consciousness. Does your backup qualify as a person in its own right? If you delete all or part of your backup is that assault or self-harm? Does your backup have a right to support, like a child? Are you liable for the bad actions of your backup? If your backup demonstrates any instability (perhaps it self-deletes/suicides) is that evidence that you represent a danger to yourself and/or others?
My back-up would be flawed. The other day I could not even recall where I left my car keys the day before :-( (OK, I eventually found them, but you see the point about preserving memories - they would be somewhat erratic.)
This is almost the same as "Would you share your consciousness with another being?" I wouldn't want anyone to have access to my private thoughts because they're private for a reason.If we had access to the private thoughts of any of our leaders, celebrities, etc., you could find something in there that would make them look like bad, evil people.
I think this falls into the "too much information" category.
J.J. wrote: "If we had access to the private thoughts of any of our leaders, celebrities, etc., you could find something in there that would make them look like bad, evil people...."But maybe those considered bad and evil anyway, would endear themselves with us by sharing their consciousness? -:)
Do you really want to know what goes on inside of Trump or HRC's brains?Best case scenario: We find out that David Icke is correct.
J. wrote: "The more that I think about it, the stranger it gets.Let's say that your backup somehow includes the ineffable elements that give rise to your consciousness. Does your backup qualify as a person ..."
Interesting questions, J, although I have no answers. Something to think about.
And can't we save our mental profile somehow, in case cloning will be allowed some time in the future?
Not an awfully scientific thread, I know, but what do you think?