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The Myth Of the Terribly Charismatic Serial Killer
Many serial killers were charming and charismatic.John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, Rodney Alcala, and Dr.H.H.Holmes come up mind.
Rodney Alcala went on a dating game show and won.
Once he and his date got some time to actually sit down and chat backstage she refused to go on the date with him. Saying he was creepy. The loser contestants stated he was creepy and arrogant.
Ted Bundy was described as very charismatic, very well liked. His ex girlfriend and his then later his future wife both said he was creepy at times.
The point I am making is that these people are manipulators.
They know how and when to turn on the charm.
The victims only see a glimpse of their personality. Same with the rest of the people in their life.
"vast majority of these guys, who exercise their charismatic allure by waving $20 bills at dope-sick hookers."
For most of them you got to look okay to get into a the car with.
In the case of Robert Lee Yates. He was going after "dope sick hookers" and one of the hookers got creeped out by the look in his eyes and refused to get in.
Take Edmund Kemper for example.
Before killing he practiced for months on how to get young women to get into his car. One of the tactics was to look at his watch to make them think "oh he's just passing through, he doesnt have time for anything." He also wore "Granny glasses" to make him self look more nonthreatening. He pulled a lot of manipulative moves to do what he did.
When I first saw a photo of Phillip Jablonski I was shocked that ANY women would want to married to him. Let alone get married to him while he was in prison for MURDERING his first wife.
The guy looks incredibly sleazy and a used car salesman.
So I was yelling at my computer screen "HOW THE HELL COULD ANY WOMEN FALL FOR THAT?!"
This year I finally bought Deadly urges about the case.
Turns out the wife he married in prison was mentally ill, was starving her self to death. Before they were even married she was afraid of him and refused to be alone with him. Before he was finally released from prison she got a restraining order against him.
All his other penpals either never even saw his photo, never looked into what he was in prison for, and had their own agenda. One women saw his name and decided to write to him because he had a polish name. She wanted to "bring him to christ" pure and simple.
The women he conned were incredibly gullible and or mentally ill.
I would say the whole thing is an exaggeration and misses the point. They are MANIPULATORS.
I never did understand this 'charismatic' thing, either. I kept hearing, for example, how good-looking Richard Ramirez was; couldn't see it myself. I even think Bundy is a bit weird looking, though that may be because I know he was a bit weird. I don't think Alcala is good looking either. He wasn't particularly alluring on the game show; I've seen tapes of it a number of times. I guess you never know what floats one's boat.
I thought Richard Ramirez was good-looking in a spooky way but Ted Bundy wasn't handsome to me. Plus Jeffrey Dahlmer was good-looking too when he was cleaned up and dressed nicely.
If Rodney was ever good-looking he's definitely lost it:
Ramirez was good-looking when not so strung out on drugs that he looked like an extra from THE WALKING DEAD. Oh, and as long as he didn't smile, which would reveal his horrible rotten teeth and the fumes peeling off them.
Dahmer was very good-looking, but so socially awkward that you would never in a million years describe him as charismatic.
My feeling is that a successful predator is super sensitive to victimology, and somehow able to zero in on the weaknesses of people, and exploit them such that to certain individuals they appear charismatic. To me it has less to do with physical attraction than how they push another's buttons. Psychopaths are able to manipulate other's through neuroses and insecurities. However, by the same token, they must not be completely physically repulsive
Then what about...
Charisma only counts if you are an "organized" serial killer who builds a phony relationship with his victims. Most of them don't.
Interesting insight. Did the people above look like that during their prolific times, and, if so, how did they get their victims to approach them or even let the perp approach them?
Lucas and Toole preyed on people even more down and out than they were them selves -- runaways, homeless, etc. One exception is when Toole snatched 6-year-old Adam Walsh out of a parking lot -- a well-brought-up boy from a good family, it would never have occurred to him to run away screaming when an adult told him to get in his truck.Julie Sanchez was stranded by the highway with her broken-down car when Coral Watts came running at her with a knife. He ran off laughing as her husband pulled up -- he had been following her because they both knew her car was on its last legs. He got her to a hospital in time. No relationship building there...
And is Gacy so charismatic? He offered teenaged boys entry-level jobs paying twice the minimum wage. Is that charisma?
The 3 serial killers pictured are Henry Lee Lucas, Ottis Toole, and Joe Metheny.Just in case anyone doesnt know.
Rodney Alcala didn't look like that when he was on his killing spree.
He was murdering from at least 1971-1979. He was young then.
I must add that Richard Rimarez broke into the homes and attacked the victims.
Rodney Alcala would con his victims into doing photo shoots although he also would just break into their homes and attack them. He also liked to con little girls into his car.
Lucas only killed 3 people. At least that is what I believe.
Ottis killed....at least 2 or 3? It's hard to know how many he killed other then an arson that he killed a man inside a building.
Lucas killed
1.His mother: Stabbed her to death.
2.An old women who took him in. A christian missionary basically.
3.His 12 year old girl friend Becky who was Ottis's niece.
Joe Metheny....an interesting case. A 500 pound serial killer who claimed to have fed the meat of the murdered prostitutes to his costumers at his food stand. Like Carl Grossman and other serial killers. Only Metheny was 500 pounds. He also killed homeless people.
I've heard of accounts from true crime fanatics like my self who wrote to Metheny and the guy is completely heartless.
Too bad he hasnt had an a heart attack from all that weight.
So I agree that not ALL serial killers are charismatic or even appealing. I say it's an exaggeration. Just like the whole "serial killers are brilliant geniuses."
Really? Gary Ridgeway wasnt brilliant at all. Neither was Joachim Kroll. Ridgeway killed at least 89 women/girls. Mostly prostitutes and SHOULD of been caught early in his murder career. Only reason he got away with it for so long was because of problems with DNA and his DNA sat on the shelf for decades waiting to be examined.
Let's go through some history here.
DNA was really used in 1984. Ridgeway's murder spree began in 1982 and lasted until the 90s. The first conviction based off DNA was in 1986. I am doing ALL of this by memory by the way.
I am not that interested in Gary Ridgeway so for his facts I have to consult google.
He gave the sample in 1987.
Now I have read "DNA was in it's infancy."
Yet I know for a FACT there was at least one case that used DNA to convict and that was in 1986.
So I don't buy that. Sounds like excuse making to me.
Paul Bernardo was arrested in 1993 due to DNA from his rape spree. Gary Ridgeway gave his DNA in 1987 and wasn't arrested until 2001. So what am I missing?! Bernardo was one of the major suspects in the case. Ridgeway was also a suspect in his case.
You would think that by 1993 they would of decided to test his DNA since it was one of the worse serial murder cases in U.S. history. But nope.....it took them until 2001.
Joachim Kroll killed 13 mostly little girls. He was mildly mentally retarded. He was smart enough to choose where to attack and when to attack. He was only caught because his legs went bad and was basically forced to lure a neighborhood girl who lived in the same apartment complex. He began his killing spree in 1955 and was caught in 1976. That is an incredibly long time for a serial killer to be active. If his legs hadnt gone bad and he was able to control his impulses more he would of never gotten caught probably.
Once again, way too simplistic.
Fishface wrote: "Lucas and Toole preyed on people even more down and out than they were them selves -- runaways, homeless, etc. One exception is when Toole snatched 6-year-old Adam Walsh out of a parking lot -- a w..."That is what they CLAIMED.
Lucas was a serial confessor. Once he was exposed he said he was out to make law enforcement look stupid. He confessed to "the orange socks case" and was sentenced to death for it. It was made obvious he couldnt of done it and president Bush actually let him off death row.
Lucas later claimed to have only killed his mother.
I would say he killed the 3 people I listed.
Lucas was a liar and there is no real evidence that he killed anyone else other then those 3.
Ottis Toole...I am not convinced that he killed Adam Walsh.
He might of? It's possible. There is no real evidence and we know that his friend/lover Lucas was a serial confessor and he him self was also a serial confessor.
Toole saw a TV movie on the Adam Walsh case and confessed to it. At least that is what might of happened. Toole confessed one day AFTER the TV movie aired and Toole had access to a TV. So it's very possible he saw it and then falsely confessed to it. Maybe he didn't see it and he did do it? Who knows? He also recanted his confessions. Sometimes within minutes of each other. I remember one interview where he was asked "did you kill him?" and he said "yes." and then a few minutes later he said "I really didn't kill that kid."
They took him around the city to see if he would pick the right mall and he did.
In the Charles Hatcher case you had Reynolds who falsely confessed to a child murder and he was able to find the general area of the the crime scene. Not the exact stop but close enough.
In the Keith Jesperson case an old women falsely confessed that she and her boyfriend beat and strangled Jesperson's first victim Tanya Bennet. She was able to describe details about the crime and was able to find where the body was dumped.
So that shows how reliable that is.
Lucas said that he was able to spot a crime scene because the police showed him photos and he was able to piece it all together to make a convincing performance.
Then again that is different. Picking the right mall. Not a road or some field.
One great piece of evidence would of been a blood stained trunk but the police LOST that evidence. They "lost" the car. As John Walsh said angrily "inexcusable."
Some believe that Dahmer might of been the killer.
A witness said he saw Dahmer take the boy. When he saw Dahmer years later on the news he was like "That is the guy who killed Walsh." Dahmer was in Florida at the time and had access to a van. His part time job allowed him to use it. Dahmer was also a pedophile and been arrested as a child molester. Dahmer was known to decapitate his victims.
Personally I don't know what to believe about the Adam Walsh case. The evidence is inconclusive. Maybe neither Toole or Dahmer killed him. Who knows?!
A cold-case investigator who managed to find some critical evidence lost by Hollywood, FL PD when the Walsh case was still active, and who questioned people who knew Toole at the time of the killing and were able to help create a map of his movements and statements, concluded that Toole did it. It was clear enough that not only do the Walshes accept it as fact, but so did a judge who finally closed the case as solved.
" critical evidence lost by Hollywood, FL PD" Such as?!"were able to help create a map of his movements and statements, concluded that Toole did it."
So contradictory statements and a map of his movements is enough?
"the Walshes accept it as fact, but so did a judge who finally closed the case as solved." The Walshes pushed for it to finally be declared solved. This means absolutely nothing.
I've looked at the case. I remember reading about it when it was declared "solved" and they didn't have any new evidence.
The "solved" was a political move and a move for the Walsh family.
Toole was never charged with the murder because the evidence was incredibly weak. The only "new" piece of evidence is the map created around his movements. By the logic Dahmer must be guilty because he was in the area at the time, a witness who saw the kidnapping said it was Dahmer. Dahmer decapitated people, etc.
Why isnt Dahmer declared the guilty one?
See, about the same standard of evidence.
It's pretty obvious the "solved" classification was to put closure on the case. Walsh immediately and always thought it was Toole and he wanted the case to be declared Solved.
I want stronger evidence.
My view is not "he didn't do it".
My view is "not proven."
There are good reasons to think he did it. He said he decapitated him. Adam was found decapitated. He said he punched the kid. The autopsy showed that he had been hit in the face.
He was able to point out the correct store.
Then you got the map, but that isnt enough.
If the car was found and the blood stains matched Adam Walsh's blood, then that would prove it.
All you can say is that Ottis Toole was a good suspect.
I am not going to accept the solved because of the bias within hypocrite John Walsh. Who has a invested interest to have it "solved" and pinned on the man he always believed did it and he used the court to do it.
Even wikipedia says "Although no new evidence has come forth, on December 16, 2008, police announced that the Walsh case was closed as they were satisfied that Toole was the murderer."
Watch John Walsh give a tearful speech at the press conference. He basically admits it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA5nQ...
One of the scariest things he says in the speech is that his friend has sentenced people to death row on "less evidence." If that is so then that is incredibly scary.
About Dahmer -
"He was living in Miami Beach at the time Adam was murdered, and two eyewitnesses placed him at the shopping mall on the day Adam was abducted. One of the witnesses claimed to have seen a strange man walking into the toy department where Adam was abducted. The other said that he saw a young, blond man with a protruding chin throw a struggling child into a blue van and sped off. Both witnesses recognized the man they had seen as Dahmer when pictures of him were released in the newspapers after his arrest. Reports showed that the delivery shop where he worked had a blue van at the time. He preyed on young men and boys (the youngest being eight years older than Adam), and his modus operandi included severing his victims' heads. When interviewed about Adam in the early 1990s, he repeatedly denied involvement in the crime, even stating; "I've told you everything—how I killed them, how I cooked them, who I ate. Why wouldn't I tell you if I did someone else?"[16] After this rumor surfaced, John Walsh stated that he had "seen no evidence" linking his son's kidnapping and murder to Dahmer." wikipedia.
I will say that Toole is a better suspect then Dahmer.
if I had to bet money I'd say Toole.
To make it more clear.
Dahmer is possible but not probable. Eyewitness is faulty.
Toole is probable.
Solving a crime is ALWAYS to put closure on a case. They didn't try him for Adam Walsh because he was already in prison for life. They do it that way all the time.Let me also point out that when Dahmer was living in Florida, he was camping on the beach in a pup tent because he was too short of money to rent a place. For a while there he didn't even have a car. His M.O. involved killing people in great secrecy behind a locked door. Toole's statements about how he killed Adam Walsh were -- recanted at times, like a lot of people's confessions, but really not inconsistent otherwise -- matched up very well with the known facts about his death, including the minor item that he told them exactly where he tossed the little boy's head -- an item they kept out of the papers as a polygraph key. If that's "incredibly weak" evidence, well and good.
"Solving a crime is ALWAYS to put closure on a case." My point is that it was declared "solved" for the closure. Not because new evidence showed that Toole was with out a doubt the killer.Many serial killers had children as their first victim. Including Gary Ridgeway. He stabbed a little boy when he was a young teenager. Later as an adult he strangled women. Different M.O. At least with Dahmer he was a child molester who decapitated his victims.
"They didn't try him for Adam Walsh because he was already in prison for life." Very true, but NOT true in this case.
John Walsh even admits in that video that Broward County did not accept that Toole killed Adam Walsh.
In a documentary about Ottis Toole they make this VERY clear.
The narrator even says they didn't charge him due to lack of hard evidence.
I believe Toole probably did kill Adam Walsh, but I still say it isnt a clear cut case.
It's disgusting that they lost the hardest piece of evidence. The blood stained car. If I had to bet money on it I would say the blood would of Matched Adam Walsh.
Well, point taken, but it wasn't Broward County jurisdiction; it was Hollywood PD who totally mishandled the case and the Broward sheriff never had it in the first place. His head was found many miles away, halfway up the state. Toole had died before the cold-case investigator uncovered the story he told a friend about what he did with the rest of the body. If we could have found that BBQ and examined the bone fragments in it, you'd have your clear-cut case, IO think. But none of his wretched friends or relatives had the presence of mind to pick up the phone and call the cops, or ask a single question, even the people who believed him. I could slap every single one of them.
I agree with you as well.His isnt the only case where people failed to step forward for information. Isnt the only case where the police royally screwed up the investigation.
You question whether Gacy was charismatic.
He absolutely was which is why he was so well liked among friends and why even some the victims who got away fell for his stupid excuses.
Gacy was a master manipulator. One of the best I've seen.
That is why he got in such high positions and as so well liked and successful.
Even after he was convicted of raping, torturing, and killing 33 boys and one man a few of his neighbors still visited him prison.
In a talk by a criminal sociologist named Jack Levin he confronted one of the neighbor asking "Don't you know he killed 33 people?"
and she said according to him "well I always knew him as a good neighbor."
When he was executed they had a room for his family, friends, and neighbors and they were crying their eyes out for him.
Part of being charismatic is being a manipulator and Gacy knew how to manipulate people. I also notice that you focus 100% on that trait only when it comes to them getting their victims but what about in their day to day life?
That seems like a false dichotomy.
It is commonly known that people are not totally good or totally bad, and acquaintances of a criminal can each see that person differently.But, to the question about Gacy's charisma: does it say more about people who can be easily manipulated than the actual charisma of the manipulator?
I guess the real agenda for my original question (not to inject politics into this group discussion; slap me down if I'm committing a "faux pas") is: does anyone in this group think the Donald is charismatic)
Great questions and points Hari.With Gacy. One of his neighbors said he knew Gacy for a long time and basically admired him. Said "I thought the world of him."
Even the police who were following him under suspicion for the disappearance of Robert Piest. Despite the fact that he was speeding constantly and giving the police a hard time they said that when they got down to sitting down with him and so forth they had to remind them selves "he's a suspect in a teenage boy's disappearance." to not be fooled by him.
Donald is a manipulator too. He's the definition of a demagogue. He's obviously not very smart and doesnt seem to care at all about his lies.
While he was running for president and he was making all these BLATANTLY insane and unrealistic promises [we will make Mexico pay for the wall for instance.] I couldnt help but think of an episode of Doug.
I'm a 90s kid and I watched Nickelodeon a lot. One of my favorite shows was Doug. In an episode Doug runs for class treasurer.
The son of the mayor helps his son with the campaign and the mayor was always portrayed as absolutely terrible.
So they have slanderous ad campaigns where they imply that Doug cheated on a math test, stole money, etc. All they do is say "one of your candidates MIGHT of" and they show a silhouette of Doug and the narrator says that the son of the mayor is against that.
Doug gets angry and says "I never cheated or stolen in my life!"
The mayor's son says "I never said you did.'
The son makes a ton of actually reasonable promises.
Doug is so desperate he blurts out without even thinking "If you vote for me...I'll give you free candy!"
And it's hilarious that the entire school buys that absurd promise. Even as a kid I was like "HOW IS HE GONNA PAY FOR THAT?! THAT'S ABSURD!"
I was like "come on....you got to make your lies more believable."
Should of also promised to cure death during his campaign. Or claimed he invented air.
Apparently Donald Trump is either too stupid or doesnt care how believable they are. As long as it gets him votes.
One of his staunch supporters who went to pretty much every single Trump Rally was disgusted and hurt by Trump's health care bill. He said "I believed every word that he said." and he was asked "what do you think now?" and he said "I think he was looking for votes to be honest with you."
I was slapping my head in shock and disgust when I saw that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRDxr...
Same with some serial killers where it's like "there is so much evidence. You are obviously guilty. Just admit it." and they refuse because they don't care. It's all about maintaining power and control.
Kenneth Bianchi was a compulsive liar stole candy from a store when he was like 5 years old. His mother caught him with the candy falling out of his pocket, it was obvious he stole it and he according to the source "Kenneth absolutely denied how it got in his pants." He's the type of liar that if you caught him literally stealing cookies from the cookie jar he'd still lie about and say he didn't do it because he doesn't care.
Personally I am enraged at Trump for climate change denial and the new proposed health bill that will take away medicaid and give the rich a taxcut. Who knew that a millionaire would give the rich a tax cut and throw the poor aside for their own benefit. WHO KNEW?!
Something people like Rick Perry and a ton of other republicans have been trying to do for years.
Who knew that a republican who is a millionaire who pulled a Dr.H.H.Holmes con [Holmes would hire people to make his building then fire the guy for 'incompetence.' that way he saved money and kept his slaughter house building a secret because only he knew the full layout.] by hiring a guy who slaved away to build a beautiful tower for him and then refused to pay the man. Hilary Clinton brought this up and Trump's reply was the same as serial killer master manipulator and con artist Holmes's excuse.
Trump said "Maybe I didn't like his work."
Who knew THAT guy would GUT healthcare to favor the RICH.
Couldnt of foreseen that coming.
Needed a crystal ball to see that.
It's the same with David Koresh.
He was a cult leader and they are usually described as very charismatic. In that cult's case....he wasn't.
In fact some of the cult followers said he wasnt very interesting and they didn't think much of him as a person.
The cult had it within their believe system to accept him. Whether he was charismatic or not they were going to accept what he had to say as long as he could fit what he had to say into their ideology.
They were basically primed to believe nonsense and accept nonsense. These are the same people who accepted David Koresh having sex with their little girls. Ages 11 to 14 or so.
Many of the followers still believe Koresh. Still waiting for the world to end too.
A cult leader like my favorite Jim Jones...he had to actually make it for him self and he was able to because of his charisma, research, intelligence, determinism, and he was a master manipulator. He actually EARNED his cult. Wasn't just given to him.
Thanks for the comments. The fact that so many people fell under the sway of both the Donald and folks like Koresh shows how empty and needy the people are and nothing about either Donald or Koresh having actual charisma. Koresh definitely was compelling (the donald is not), and they are both master manipulators
Hari wrote: "It is commonly known that people are not totally good or totally bad, and acquaintances of a criminal can each see that person differently.But, to the question about Gacy's charisma: does it say m..."
I don't see Gacy OR The Donald as charismatic. And I have to take issue with the idea that Gacy was ever highly placed. He talked a big game but he never achieved very much.
" I have to take issue with the idea that Gacy was ever highly placed. He talked a big game but he never achieved very much."Towards 1978 and going into 1979 he was gonna be a millionaire.
In fact he made a promise to him self and told his father that he will be a millionaire by the time he was 30 and he almost achieved that.
He owned a ton of contracting franchises all around the country. Which is one reason why he would travel to Florida and so forth. To keep an eye on his business outside of Illinois. His business was very successful. He threw multiple parades where he met the first lady.
He was very successful.
His traveling is what makes me believe that he might have other victims. He did rape one of his employees when he took him with him to Florida. So I ask....what else did he do while out of state?
Gacy achieved a lot and all of it was taken because he killed those 33 boys.
The sister of one of his victims said "Gacy should of thought about that before he killed those boys."
Do you own your own private bar at home? Are you a millionaire?
Speaking about true crime artifact collecting. The investigators collecting the bodies and looking through evidence. Many of them decided to take company pencil's with Gacy's logo on it of "PDM contracts".
Gacy is a serial killer who always make me laugh. To me he is unintentionally funny. He complained about that and called it "that's possession of stolen property"
I actually own a pencil from the mortuary he once worked at.
Not from that time period, but it does have the company's name of it and so forth.
If you want to talk about a failed business man then talk about Herbert Baumeister. He was a gay serial killer who owned his own store and his business was failing by the time he was connected to the murders. He owned a mansion with a big swimming pool. So he did achieve a lot but it was going away due to his business it's self failing.
Franchises all over the country? Where are you getting that information?Lots of people have wet bars in their houses. That was very, very prevalent among ordinary middle-class people in the 1970s. Same as beanbag chairs and Play Pits.
"Franchises all over the country?"It's a fact that his company PDM was a franchise. I used plural meaning several buildings of PDM. Spread out through out the country.
I am getting this all from my 3 books on Gacy.
" he never achieved very much."
You admit he achieved enough to be middle class.
Also really? I am unaware of that.
I didn't know it was so easy to have a bar fully stocked with a large supply.
The idea that Gacy was not a successful person....you are the first and only person I've ever heard deny he was a very successful and wealthy man. He clearly was.
No book I've read on the guy -- and I'm no Gacy scholar -- has described him as anything but a ne'er-do-well who finally got a foothold towards success with PDM. All his previous successes were mostly fictional -- like telling people he owned 2 KFCs when he was really an employee of the single KFC outlet owned by his father-in-law -- and PDM, while quite respectable, was nothing epic.It's not "easy" to have a full wet bar in your house, but if you want to appear a certain way to others -- and Gacy was nothing if not status-conscious -- you'll make it happen. Think how easy it is for a building contractor to whip up his own custom wet bar from extra materials used at other jobs in his own finished basement. Contractors do that all the time. He could (and, I suspect, did) steal some of the bottles he needed to stock it from businesses he worked in. Or accepted them as partial payment for some jobs. The only real outlay would be for glasses and barstools.
And we've all seen the inside of Gacy's house. It was nice enough for the 70s, but nuthin' special. The standards were a lot lower in those days and if you had a finished basement with fake-wood paneling and wall-to-wall carpet, that was better than average. If you had a pool table down there, even a battered old monument handed down from your great-uncle Steve, that was really boss. If you had a wet bar, you were practically Austen Powers.
You are dismissing his democratic career in Iowa and later in Illinois.He was a Jaycee who was one of the most valued member. He met many politicians as a result of his political involvement. He was voted "man of the year" twice. He was also a chef in a very fancy restaurant where he would sometimes cook for a local infamous hockey team.
He led many local parades through out his life.
As a result he met first lady Rosalyn Carter.
I've read and studied Gacy enough to say he was indeed successful. Yeah he exaggerated a few times, but that doesnt take away all of his success. PDM was a profitable business to the point where in 1978 he was close to being a millionaire and he had several PDMs in several other states.
Gacy was a very wealthy man when he was arrested and it was all taken away. After a few years he had no money left for appeals. So he decided to paint and use those paintings as cash.
Most people don't get their own expensive private lawyer.
Instead they get a public defender. Gacy had the luxury to afford "the best defense" possible.
About Sam L. Amirante the main lawyer who defended him during the murder trial and death penalty.
"He has been named as an Illinois Leading Lawyer by the Chicago Daily Law Bulletin and authored the missing child act of 1984, which was the basis of the current Amber Law."
He got the best because
1.He could afford it.
2.When he couldnt afford to fight the appeals he decided to give them his paintings.
I guess O.J. Simpson wasn't successful either.
I just want to point out that there are true crime artifact collectors who think that using paintings as cash for your defense team should be illegal because it's a conflict of interest.
For the artifact to be worth more the defendant needs to be found guilty and likely executed.
Gacy's paintings. Once he was executed his paintings doubled in price and value. Same with Richard Ramirez.
I'm not dismissing his Democratic career. But a guy who has a role in organizing Polish Pride Day is not the same as, say, the governor of Illinois. That's closer to my definition of "highly-placed" in the democratic process.And let me point out that Gacy's paintings are hideous crap, and any money made off them was not readily available to him owing to the Son of Sam law. And once he was executed, he was definitely no longer a millionaire. He was a sack of meat in the ground, no different from William Carroll, Russell Nelson or Rob Piest. Oh, except he was killed humanely and had a chance to say goodbye to his family. Nobody raped him or tortured him to death.
Maybe you shouldn't admire the guy so much. Having yourself photographed shaking hands with Rosalyn Carter -- something THOUSANDS of people have done over the years -- does not outweigh those 33 dead guys and an unclear number of rape survivors whose lives he marked forever.
Did he make enough money in his entire life to pay back the guy in Iowa who went to live in a state mental hospital after Gacy raped and tortured him without quite killing him? What dollar amount would you put in John Szyc's life?
"let me point out that Gacy's paintings are hideous crap"He wasn't the best artist but he wasn't terrible. He could obviously draw and paint.
The son of sam law was struck down as unconstitutional because IT WAS.
"Oh, except he was killed humanely"
No he wasn't. He was killed by lethal injection.
Lethal injection is not humane at all. With Gacy, the IV clogged and it took 10 minutes for the entire procedure. Which leaves no question that Gacy had a painful death.
It's a fact that the pain reliever that puts the inmate to sleep wears off pretty quickly. Reports on executions have shown that a large portion of the inmates were most likely awake and aware of what was happening and felt "excruciating pain." Many reports have shown this. One report stated that this method of execution doesn't live up to the standards used to euthanize animals.
Futurama has a Christmas episode where the mayor is gonna execute Bender the robot. He shows the method of execution a giant magnet called "Maggy." The mayor describes how he will execute Bender in the most humane method possible. By "tearing you limb from limb." Bender says "That doesn't sound humane!" The mayor says "Yes it does.Because at least it's not boring."
Lethal injection paralyzes you so you don't appear to suffer.
"does not outweigh those 33 dead guys and an unclear number of rape survivors" Who said it did or didn't?
As for "Did he make enough money in his entire life to pay back the guy in Iowa who went to live in a state mental hospital after Gacy raped and tortured him" and "What dollar amount would you put in John Szyc's life?"
Why are you asking ME and not the courts, lawyers, and victim's families and the victims them selves?
Victims are given 'restitution" and "retribution" all the time and I am not sure I even agree with that.
No amount of money can make up for what happened to those boys. Period.
The victims families of Dahmer's decided to hypocritically sell Dahmer's fridge, silverware, syringe he used to inject the acid into the brains, the handsaw and drill, etc.
One of the sisters said "we want money, money, and more money."
Their lawyer said "We are only interested in the money." and "Bucks, money...and I want it to go to my victim's families. That's what it's about. MONEY!"
A news host doing a report on this asked what the moral line was.
The sister said "After what he did there is no wrong."
These same people publicly harassed a comic book artist, a tourist business, and a ton of other people who simply werent "only in it for the money." as the family's lawyer put it.
Unlike collectors who will say "I am providing a footnote to the case." "this is a piece of historical criminal history." "I want to get back to the historical aspect because that's why these paintings have value." and "I did a comic book as part of a journalistic exercise." and "Dahmer was being put in the media as this handsome man. Put on People magazine's top 10 most interesting people. No. He's a pedophile, he's a murderer. He's dirt. He's portrayed as such in that comic book."
The only time I've ever seen true crime artifact collecting as SLEAZY was when I saw the victims families of Dahmer talking about "money, money, and more money. ", "I don't care if we have to sell his wisdom tooth. He owes that to us.", "after what he did there is no wrong.". "We are only interested in the money." and "That's what it's all about. MONEY!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntJBL...
I also like how at the same time they demean anyone who would buy the items they were going to sell. Basically biting the hand that feeds them.
I would of been like "I'm giving $2,000 for this item. I don't need your judgement and disdain. Calling me 'disturbed' and 'sick'. Shut up and give me it."
"Did he make enough money in his entire life to pay back the guy in Iowa who went to live in a state mental hospital after Gacy raped and tortured him without quite killing him? What dollar amount would you put in John Szyc's life?"
Ask that to the courts and victims families. Not me.
Jay wrote: ""let me point out that Gacy's paintings are hideous crap"He wasn't the best artist but he wasn't terrible. He could obviously draw and paint.
I so disagree.
The son of sam law was struck down as unconstitutional..."
Only in New York state. All of the other 42 states that have Son of Sam laws immediately amended theirs to avoid further constitutionality issues.
Lethal injection is not humane at all. With Gacy, the IV clogged and it took 10 minutes for the entire procedure. Which leaves no question that Gacy had a painful death.
I'm pretty comfortable with that. It still doesn't begin to stack up to what he did to those 33+ young guys and their families.
"I so disagree." That is art for you. Art is in the eye of the beholder. You know who else is a good artist? George W Bush and Adolf Hitler.I think Bush was a terrible president and I don't like nazis or any other form of bigotry. While I am fascinated by Hitler [like several jews by the way.] I sure as hell hate Hitler and I'm glad he's dead.
I'm a very liberal person. Not liberal to the point where my brain falls out, but liberal in a 'sane" way.
I aint gonna deny they were good artist just because "I don't like them" as human beings.
I don't even need to say "I like they're art."
I find Bush's art boring but I can't deny that he has artistic abilities.
I've seen Charles Manson's art work and it's undeniably bad.
The supreme court ruled the Son of Sam law unconstitutional.
Everything else is just muddy and loop holes.
I am not okay with that. I am against the death penalty.
For 3 reasons.
1.Innocent people are sentenced to death and have been executed or were almost executed. Even in cases where they found out the person was innocent the prosecutor still tried to get them executed.
2.Murder is wrong unless you are in immediate danger by them or are at war. I remember one case where 2 teenagers went in with guns and tried to rob a pharmacy. The pharmacist shot one of them, chased after the other one with the gun. Returned to the pharmacy and as the kid was lying on the floor he executed him. He was found guilty of murder. You do not have the right to just execute people "because they deserve it." unless your the government apparently.
3.As Michael Ross said "They have me on death row like that's suppose to be some big punishment....and for some of us death is not a punishment." Ross refused to fight his death sentence and made sure he was executed.
Bittaker is another case. He's been in prison most of his life. Been in prison for DECADES. I've seen many interviews where he will cry because of this. Saying "I ruined my life" and "Wasted life. Totally wasted."
Now if someone killed someone I loved.....I would want to push the button my self. I'd want that person to die a horrible death...and that is another reason why I am against it.
We have laws for a reason. We have a system in place for a reason. You can not by a vigilante. If I kidnapped that person and killed them my self....I would be prosecuted for that BUT if the state does it, well then it's okay. It's murder through government and the government is suppose to be BETTER then me.
What bothers me the most in terms of this discussion is the mere fact that we are LYING to our selves.
If you want to be bloody thirsty. If you want revenge, etc....I must rather you ADMIT THAT.
I have heard one prosecutor who sentenced 2 people to death "There's only one crime that warrants the death penalty and that's murder and not all murders. The worst murders. Serial killings, murders with multiple victims, murders of children, sexual tortures." That is a blatant lie.
There are MANY cases that do not involve ANY of that.
You got people on death row when they shot someone behind their back while robbing a store. You got cases where the accomplice is sentenced to death simply because they were an accomplice to someone who murdered someone.
In the Michael Ross case. He got the death penalty because he killed Leslie Shelley to silence her. Despite wanting the death penalty he REFUSED to admit he killed her to silence her warranting the death penalty according to Connecticut law.
With Bittaker. He admitted he raped Lynette Bedford but said Norris killed her. The prosecutor pointed out that Bittaker wasnt aware that if you rape someone during a mission of a murder you can be sentenced to death for that. So you technically don't even have to be the one who pulled the trigger.
He also said "it's not because we're blood thirsty. It's not because we want to see people die." YES IT IS!
For decades we've had executions where they made sure the executioner wasn't sure they actually killed the inmate. Such as a firing squad. Where they give one a real bullet and the rest are fake.
There is a great The simpson's line from Nelson. The simpson's are being chased by an angry mob who want to kill them. Nelson has a bow and arrow. The arrow is red. Nelson says "I got a red arrow so I know who I kill."
it's the blanket/smoke screen of "well it's humane", "The worst murders.", "It's not because we're blood thirsty." that really irritates me.
Watch the crowd footage of Gacy's/Bundy's execution and then tell me "We're not blood thirsty. We don't want to see people die."
You also want to concentrate on the victims of Gacy and their families. Well what about the other victims? Like Gacy's sister Karen and all those neighbors and friends who were crying their eyes out at his execution.
"I was losing a brother. I was losing someone that I love. Of course theres great sadness to have to part and say a final 'goodbye' to know that this person isn't dying because they're sick. They're dying because someone's gonna murder them."
One of Gacy's final lawyers said
"I saw his family, neighbors, people who had known him his whole life. Sobbing uncontrollably, who were in just grieving horribly and I realized at that moment that these people are certainly capable of unconditional love for John Wayne Gacy. To others he was a horrific murderer, but these people knew him in a totally different light and grieved, grieved for him."
Not only was his family victimized by what he did, who he was, and by the government executing him, but they also had Gacy suffer under the guise of "it's humane."
I am not saying that you personally should feel sympathy for Gacy Fishface.
There is a guy online that I absolutely hate.
I hate him because he's a horrible person and is pro censorship and wants to harass people he disagrees with and use violence against these people.
I have said that if someone violently attacked him...I would feel zero sympathy for him.
Now if I was there and I witnessed it...what would I do?
I'd try and get the attacker off him.
Just because I hate him doesnt mean I wouldnt do the right thing.
Back to the original topic.
Who would you consider charismatic?
Would you say Adolf Hitler was charismatic?
Reverend Jim Jones?
What serial killer do you think is charismatic?
Charisma for me is such a personal and subjective thing that I can't answer those questions posed by Jay: I have never met the people mentioned.And when I think back to the two serial killers I have met charisma is not what I remember. One was a sniveling wimp, the other reminded me of Goober Pyle.
Whoa, Nelly! I'm not saying I dislike Gacy's artwork because I dislike Gacy. I don't dislike him on any kind of personal level; I can't because I never met him and he never did anything to me. Nossiree Bob: I'm saying I can't stand his artwork because he is a terrible, terrible, terrible artist:
Who would buy this stuff, even at rummage-sale prices, if he weren't so notorious??? Which brings up a really interesting (to me) point: probably the fame itself confers an aura of charisma on even a 2-legged menace to society like Gacy. People are stupid that way: they think if he's in the paper, he must be more important than others and smarter somehow. It's like a retroactive, false charisma.
Now, Hitler -- there was a true artistic talent:
Hitler supported himself selling his very competent artwork before his political career started. Even the Holocaust can't change the fact that he was a very good artist.
I can't count Jim Jones or Hitler as serial killers; they never got their hands dirty (Jim Jones didn't even drink the Kool-Aid he made the others take, getting a follower to shoot him in the head) and were more like cult leaders saying what their followers wanted to hear. People sure count them as charismatic, though. I have yet to even hear the infamous final taped harangue by Jones and I was sort of puzzled watching Hitler in action on film. Critics say you'd have to be a German national of that era to really see what he was doing that was so compelling for his listeners.
Weirdly, the most charismatic serial killer I know of is twerpy little Gary Ridgway. He comes across so sweet and friendly, so good-humored and approachable. No matter how scared the hookers of the Sea-Tac strip might be of the dreaded Green River Killer, they wouldn't hesitate to get into his truck.
Hari, you met two serial killers? Which ones?
I took care of a guy who was on death row in South Carolina in 1990, but I can't recall his name. He had come to the emergency department of the hospital I was working in, complaining of chest pain (so he could get out of prison for a couple of days, I was told). So, being new to Columbia, I was asked to be his nurse because I hadn't heard of him. He was a sexual predator and a serial killer. If you were to say his name I might remember him, especially if you had any information about his physical description. (Hope this is not a breach of his patient confidentiality.) He had one of those names southerners have, like Billie Bob Thornton.Then, around 2009, I was in triage at the same hospital. After taking a brief medical history of this guy who looked like he had just stepped out of Mayberry, alone in a small room with him for 10 minutes, with all doors closed, one of the registration clerks told my why he looked so strange: he had just gotten out of prison where he had been incarcerated for many years, also for sexual predation and murder of several girls. Have no idea what his name was.
How's that? Impressive, or not?
Hari wrote: "I took care of a guy who was on death row in South Carolina in 1990, but I can't recall his name. He had come to the emergency department of the hospital I was working in, complaining of chest pain..."Hari, I say very impressive! Not just one but TWO killers....wow!
LOL on Gacy's art! Have you ever visited the website (or physical location) of the Museum of Bad Art (MOBA)? Here's the link - it's an awesome rabbit-hole to go down. I follow them on Facebook.http://www.museumofbadart.org/
Hari wrote: "Yeah,... you had to be there."<So scary for you Hari. ***hugs***
You might think so, but the first one, the guy on death row, had on handcuffs that were fastened to a chain around his belly, and shackles on his ankles for the whole visit. And there were probably 6 prison guards with pump shotguns arrayed around his bed at all times, focused on him. So,,, I felt safer than when caring for some drunk psychopath.
And the other was very meek, and just a geek.
But thanks. Can always use the hugs.
I never said Gacy's art was great. Hitler's art is great, but Gacy's art isnt aweful was my point.There are 2 other serial killers who are really good artist.
Elmer Wayne Henley....some of his art [Sunflower for example.]
look almost like a real life photo. His art is absolutely beautiful.
The other would be Danny Rolling. Not all of his art work is great, but some of is really well done.
By the way, historical fact about Hitler.
He was rejected by the art academe. Mainly because he couldnt depict the human form accurately.
"Hitler supported himself selling his very competent artwork before his political career started" He was homeless and a jewish man actually bought his art for him. I think this same jew also bought him a coat so he wouldnt freeze to death.
I never said Hitler or Jim Jones were serial killers.
They were cult leaders.
That is why pet peeve of mine when it comes to Charles Manson.
He is commonly mistaken as a serial killer. I get really angry and I say "He never killed anyone! He's a cult leader" and because I'm angry I might insult them and be like "You call your self a true crime fan?!"
So I get offended by people mistaking Manson as a serial killer.
I was simply talking in general.
Last year I read Raven. The definitive autobiography of Jim Jones. At least when it was published. A very powerful book.
As I was reading it I drunk grape flavored koolaid [it was flavoraid but I couldnt find that.] and I listened to the audio tape of the massacre after reading that chapter. I was emotionally drained by the book and the audio.
Here is the audio with pictures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMrFC...
Jim Jones was not charismatic at this point.
He was going down hill fast and was losing it.
He was becoming more and more depressed, more isolated, more extreme, more paranoid and the drugs were really starting to effect him,
You will notice that he is slurring his words in the tape.
That is from hardcore drug use.
This was Jim Jones at his very end. Before this he was more healthy, less insane, less depressed, and his drug abuse wasnt as extreme.
I own 2 documentaries and one of my favorite clips is when a follower says "Over the summer of 78 all of us noticed that Jim seemed to be getting sicker. His harangues over the loud speaker were getting more and more frantic and really just sounding more insane." Another follower said "He had gotten to the place where even his voice was becoming slurred and he said it was because the nurse was giving him the wrong medications. Yet still every day it was getting worse and worse."
This is common among cult leaders. Near the end they start to deteriorate psychologically and the cult becomes more and more extreme, isolated, etc.
I have seen/heard old Jim Jones sermons and he is absolutely charismatic. Didn't sound insane, wasnt slurring his words, etc.
Hari wrote: "You might think so, but the first one, the guy on death row, had on handcuffs that were fastened to a chain around his belly, and shackles on his ankles for the whole visit. And there were probably..."Hari wrote: "You might think so, but the first one, the guy on death row, had on handcuffs that were fastened to a chain around his belly, and shackles on his ankles for the whole visit. And there were probably..."
Good, I am glad he was in handcuffs and chains but it must have been quite fascinating to witness. What an experience!!! Everyone needs a hug, perhaps we should do group hugs....!
Rita wrote: "Hari wrote: "You might think so, but the first one, the guy on death row, had on handcuffs that were fastened to a chain around his belly, and shackles on his ankles for the whole visit. And there ..."It was fascinating and eerie.
I have one more related experience, if you will indulge me. One night at the same hospital, three patients arrived at about the same time. Now, we had a contract with the state of South Carolina to furnish emergency health care to state prisoners because we were a Level One Trauma Center.
So, what happened was: there was an attempted prison break. Five prisoners managed to isolate one guard and disarm him, then they all grabbed him, held him up, and tried to hang him. Help came before he died, and he was rushed to the hospital in cardiac arrest.
Soon after two prisoners arrived. They had broken ankles from the subsequent struggle. That was quite scary. These were desperate men, cold-blooded, stone killers. And, of course, because of the unrest back at the prison, they didn't come with adequate security.
So, picture this: in one area staff was resuscitating a prison guard while across the hall we were ministering to the prisoners who had killed him (he died shortly after arrival.)
Alright, I'm done. Again thanks for the hugs. Hugs all around, everyone
Your job sounds VERY exciting, Hari.And, Jay, I never said you said Jim Jones or Hitler was a serial killer. I was answering Hari's post at that point, not yours.
Hitler, homeless? He had regular checks coming in from his mother and he always had a place to stay...if he wanted one. But he was an abysmally cheap man, I've heard, and he would "couch surf" if he couldn't find a place cheap enough to live in. He preferred the same kind of budget rooming house for single men Joachim Kroll favored. Those places were overflowing between the wars, of course, so he may have had a waitlist situation at times.
I continue to totally disagree with you that Gacy was even a tolerable artist. His work makes my own drawings look like something from the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.
Gee, maybe we need to start way farther back in this discussion. When I was describing the way Gary Ridgway comes across, I realized that is far from my own definition of "charismatic." When you say that word, I think Rasputin or his celebrity lookalike, Charlie Manson. Laser-beam eyes and so forth. So what is a good definition of "charismatic"?
I've read articles that say Bill Clinton is charismatic. And I always thought I'd find JFK charismatic if I met him. Good charisma, though, not like a steely-eyed maniac.
Ah, but what IS it? Is seeming friendly and approachable, a la Ridgway, a form of charisma? What of Venezuelan Supreme Court bomber Oscar Perez, who comes across as very charismatic to me? He definitely counts as a steely-eyed maniac. Charlie Manson is beguiling and intriguing, swinging from funny and charming to philosophical to zealous to straight-up Rasputin and back again. What about Vladimir Putin, who comes across as Master Of All He Surveys?
So it's kind of an ability to make people interested in you, for whatever reason, or at least that appears to be part of it. But how is it done? What makes someone 'interesting'?And on your Oscar Perez, I'll see you one Ollie North.
It's weird but I have always thought of charismatic as something akin to smarmy and phony. It has never been a positive thing for me.
K.A. wrote: "So it's kind of an ability to make people interested in you, for whatever reason, or at least that appears to be part of it. But how is it done? What makes someone 'interesting'?And on your Oscar..."
I call your Ollie North and raise you a G. Gordon Liddy.
I don't think that's weird, Shelley. It's quite a good insight as far as I'm concerned.
Hari wrote: "You might think so, but the first one, the guy on death row, had on handcuffs that were fastened to a chain around his belly, and shackles on his ankles for the whole visit. And there were probably..."Hari, you and I clearly do not think the same way. If I had met -- not one -- but two SK's in the course of my job, I would have their names engraved forever on my brain.
Of course your ER job sounds not unlike my job at the Intake department, where I met and talked to at least 3-4 new people a day, sometimes as many as 6 or a dozen. Even after typing up their biographies, 2 days after meeting them I couldn't remember their names if you paid me to do it.
I do remember some faces. Like one guy brought in against his will by his guardian, who pretended to wipe his butt with the rights booklet the secretary handed to him and then threw it in her face.
But if I knew going in that he was a serial killer? Oh, yeah, that name would stick with me...
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And then there's Henry Landru, recently discussed in a trivia question, who was supposed to be so alluring:
Yikes.
And what of Les Williams, who simply laid traps to disable women's cars so he could pretend to rescue them to get them into his clutches? How alluring to you have to be to sling a few logs across a cul-de-sac?
Not to mention the vast majority of these guys, who exercise their charismatic allure by waving $20 bills at dope-sick hookers.