OMF, Book 1, Chp. 08-10

[Hilary]

Comment above particularly for Everyman though not exclusively :p

[Hilary]

I know what you mean, Everyman, about this book. It's a little disjointed and I don't always understand what I'm reading, even though I read along with David Timson, the wondrous. I've never had such a hard time understanding Dickens though the humour is, as always, delicious!

[Everyman]

Tristram wrote: "Have you never read any of his Christmas books, Everyman?"

I'm planning to, right after I finish scaling Mount Everest solo dressed only in shorts and a T-shirt.

[Tristram]

Mary Lou wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Have you never read any of his Christmas books, Everyman? "

Touché, Tristram. (With the exception of "A Christmas Carol" of course!)"

Of course, that is always understood :-)

[Tristram]

Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Have you never read any of his Christmas books, Everyman?"

I'm planning to, right after I finish scaling Mount Everest solo dressed only in shorts and a T-shirt."

Haven't you done that already, Everyman? Your biography is so full of feats and careers that I'd have assumed climbing Mount Everest would have gone without saying ;-)

[Everyman]

Tristram wrote: "Haven't you done that already, Everyman? Your biography is so full of feats and careers that I'd have assumed climbing Mount Everest would have gone without saying ;-) "

I was waiting until I was old enough to make it a challenge. I think 85 will be sufficient. Anything younger than that, and it's just a boring stroll in the hills.

[Everyman]

I wasn't persuaded by the reason Boffin went to Lightwood as a lawyer. One would think that Harmon would have had a lawyer -- he had a will -- and surely Boffin, being that close to Harmon over the years, would know who his lawyer was. Why didn't Boffin go to him, or at least mention him?

BTW, I do like Mrs. Boffin. Boffin himself I can take or leave, but Mrs. Boffin is a gem.

[John]

I have to admit, I am failing a tad behind. I am just starting Chapter 8. Did someone say there is a government employee named "Blight?" That does sound so perfect.

Part of my problem is liking to read about six books at the same time. Frenetic, but seems to suit me.

[Everyman]

John wrote: "Did someone say there is a government employee named "Blight?" That does sound so perfect.."

Not a government employee, though works about as hard as government employees of the time were, if you believe Dickens, wont to. Actually he was Mortimer Lightwood's clerk.

Third paragraph in Chapter 8:
‘Morning, morning, morning!’ said Mr Boffin, with a wave of his hand, as the office door was opened by the dismal boy, whose appropriate name was Blight. ‘Governor in?’

[Mary Lou]

Everyman wrote: "Third paragraph in Chapter 8:
‘Morning, morning, morning!’ said Mr Boffin, with a wave of his hand, as the office door was opened by the dismal boy, whose appropriate name was Blight. "

When I read this, I chuckled at the passage and gave Dickens credit for yet another inventive and appropriate name, but it didn't register at the time that Dickens, himself, was doing the same thing! I don't recall his narrators addressing the characters' names before. Of course, that doesn't mean it hasn't happened! But I will be on the lookout for other incidents as we go forward (or backwards, when we start over again).

[Peter]

Mary Lou wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Third paragraph in Chapter 8:
‘Morning, morning, morning!’ said Mr Boffin, with a wave of his hand, as the office door was opened by the dismal boy, whose appropriate name was Blig..."

Mary Lou

I loved your phrasing "I will be on the lookout for other incidents as we go forward (or backwards, when we start again)." A wonderful Dickensian bit of logic. A great way to begin my day.

[Tristram]

Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Haven't you done that already, Everyman? Your biography is so full of feats and careers that I'd have assumed climbing Mount Everest would have gone without saying ;-) "

I was wai..."

That's a good argument, and I'll use it next time somebody asks me why I am not doing more sports, or rather: any sports at all.

[Tristram]

Everyman wrote: "I wasn't persuaded by the reason Boffin went to Lightwood as a lawyer. One would think that Harmon would have had a lawyer -- he had a will -- and surely Boffin, being that close to Harmon over the..."

I always thought that in a way, Lightwood was responsible for executing the will but then I never gave it much thought, simply taking it for granted. After all, Lightwood told the Harmon story at the Veneerings' and so I guessed that he would be in charge of seeing the will executed. On the other hand, we learn that he is a young lawyer, and one without clients at that, and Harmon was an old man, and so he would have needed a lawyer long before Lightwood went into business. Maybe, you have hit on a logical inconsistency here, Everyman.

[Tristram]

John wrote: "Part of my problem is liking to read about six books at the same time. Frenetic, but seems to suit me."

I always try not to read more than three (or sometimes four) books at a time, two fiction, one non-fiction. This way, I have some kind of variety but I won't feel awe-struck by the amount of reading I am going through.

[Mary Lou]

LindaH wrote: "I'm glad there are a few other Curiosities here who actually love Dickens!"

I love his novels, and Carol, but haven't been as enamored with his other Christmas stories (how could anyone, ever, top the perfection that is A Christmas Carol?*) or the Sketches.

* Let the debate begin!

[Tristram]

Dickens? He ain't half bad ;-) In fact, he's the literary love of my life!

[Kim]

I am sometimes tempted to give up the debate, it is taking so long to reach certain people and turn them from their grumpy ways, but I keep going knowing that some day they will see the light.

[LindaH]

Mary Lou, I love a good debate, just not sure I'm getting the Yea and Nay positions. Would someone please clarify, for this Jenny-Comelately.

[Mary Lou]

LindaH wrote: "Mary Lou, I love a good debate, just not sure I'm getting the Yea and Nay positions. Would someone please clarify, for this Jenny-Comelately."

Shocking as it may seem, there are some among us who do not agree with me that A Christmas Carol is the perfect Christmas story. In fact, there are some who seem to be (dare I say it?) Scrooges when it comes to Christmas as a whole. (Sometimes it's prudent to step away when the mistletoe starts to fly!)

[LindaH]

Thanks, Mary Lou! The perfect Christmas story? I can go with that. It doesn't mean we must sentimentally touch every Yuletide base though, right? The last mistletoe I was under was made out of paper and ribbon by my granddaughter five years ago. And I have been accused of being a Scrooge. And yet, we always read aloud A Christmas Carol during the holidays.

[Everyman]

Mary Lou wrote: "* Let the debate begin! "

What's to debate? It's a stupid, maudlin, totally unbelievable sop to unrequited sentimentality. No debate needed.

[Everyman]

LindaH wrote: "And yet, we always read aloud A Christmas Carol during the holidays. ."

You have my sympathy.

[Cindy]

Everyman wrote: "What's to debate? It's a stupid, maudlin, totally unbelievable sop to unrequited sentimentality. No debate needed."

I can see that feelings run high on this topic and that some impassioned conversations have taken place over this in the past, but I have not been a party to them. So, out of curiosity, . . . . are there any Christmas stories that do meet with your approval, Everyman? And Kim, do you like the films based on the book, and if so, which is your favorite?

I do agree that it exudes maudlin sentimentality, but so does It's a Wonderful Life, which I also love. I think a healthy dose of mawkishness at the end of the year helps cleanse the palate of the frustration and cynicism that has built up over the previous twelve months. Just my opinion! ;)

[Mary Lou]

Cindy wrote: " I think a healthy dose of mawkishness at the end of the year helps cleanse the palate of the frustration and cynicism that has built up over the previous twelve months. "

Beautifully put, Cindy.

I think we should move this conversation to the Six Jolly Fellowship Porters - we've veered away from the chapter discussions! See you there!

[Everyman]

Cindy wrote: "So, out of curiosity, . . . . are there any Christmas stories that do meet with your approval, Everyman?"

You have indeed come into the middle of an ongoing debate (one which precedes the formation of this group), and one where perhaps stronger language is employed in attack and defense than would be used in a different context. So keep that in mind!

As to the other Christmas stories, I haven't read the other ones, only A Christmas Carol, but knowing the very different response I have to it from the response of a certain other person here, the fact that that certain other person also loves all the Christmas stories convinces me that I would hate them, too, if I ever tried them.

On the basic human principle that the friend of my enemy is my enemy also.

I add a paragraph for anybody here who hasn't followed this discussion for at least six months. This paragraph is to be totally IGNORED by any long term participant in the ongoing debate (you know who you are, so stop reading now. And I mean NOW), if I knew how to embed a "tongue firmly planted deep in the cheek" meme here, I would do so. But since I don't know how, you'll just have to imagine it. And Kim, you did NOT read that.

[Kim]

I'll jump into the debate again. I'm not sure why it is called a debate since there is nothing to debate, I'm right and a certain other person is wrong. A certain person I know doesn't like A Christmas Carol, another certain person doesn't like Little Nell. See what I have to put up with? I'm not sure how I made it this far. And Cindy, my favorite version of ACC is the one with George C. Scott as Scrooge. Some of the other ones I like, but that is my favorite. And I figured out long ago why a certain person doesn't like ACC. As one of my other favorite authors said:

"It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were too tight,
it could be his head wasn't screwed on just right,
but I think that the most likely reason of all may have been that his heart was two sizes too small"

I'm betting on the second one.

Oh Eman, I almost forgot:

179 days, 09 weeks, 41 hours, 32 seconds until the big day...31, 30, 29, 28.......

and since I'm sure that by now neither one of those certain other people are reading this anymore, I'll let the rest of you in on a secret......I love both those guys. Most of the time. :-)

[Everyman]

Kim wrote: "and since I'm sure that by now neither one of those certain other people are reading this anymore, I'll let the rest of you in on a secret......I love both those guys. Most of the time. :-) ."

Since I didn't read that, I can't imagine what you're talking about.

[Tristram]

The certain person who does not like Little Nell has wonderful reasons for it, and is looking forward to expounding them in great detail when we are back on our group read of that ahem ... least successful of Dickens's novels ;-)

As to the Christmas stories, I really love A Christmas Carol and consider it one of the most captivating tales that have ever been written. Our last discussion of it also showed that there is more to it than first meets the eye.

The other Christmas stories seem less convincing to me, but I won't give any reasons here since I have put them down in my reviews already. Just briefly:

Chimes - too much of an agenda to make a coherent story
Cricket - too silly and sugary
Battle - too little of a plot
Haunted Man - not read yet

I hope it's not considered outrageous to say this but I have the feeling that after the success of his first Christmas story, Dickens wrote the other Christmas books with a view to making money and to pandering to the public's sentimentality, and that's why, unlike most other Dickens writings, they have not really stood the test of time.

@Cindy: I just love "It's a Wonderful Life", and well remember the time I saw it first as a child. I have made it a tradition to watch it with my wife and kids every year around Christmas :-)

[Ami]

Tristram wrote: "Chapter 10 is all about a wedding and “A Marriage Contract”, as its title already tells us. I think the narrator here prepares the opening for another storyline as he introduces two characters in m..."

The Lammles, do not have a solid union with one another even before their dismal nuptial. The narrator states, The bride and bridegroom talk and laugh apart, as always has been their manner (116). Although, I didn't expect wedded bliss, in terms of the Boffins for them, the Lammles do take separate but together to a whole other level.

What I did not expect is their financial duping of one another, and by hand of the Veneerings. It was a complete shock for me, and yet, I got a great laugh out of it too. After reading further and taking note of the couple's growing great affections for one another (sarcasm); it is Saphronia's heated exchange but Alfred's demeanor that made me literally shudder in my skin...

If, when those infernal fingermarks were on the white and breathless countenance of Alfred Lammle, Esquire, they denoted that he conceived the purpose of subduing his dear wife Mrs. Alfred Lammle, by at once divesting her of any lingering reality or presence of self-respect, the purpose would seem to have been presently executed (123).

For lack of a better term, this moment was "unfortunate." A reminder of Dickens's unfortunate brother sister combo, the Murdstones, whom I think the Lammels will better emulate. I look forward to reading about the Lammles eating a nice slice of humble pie sometime soon...Hopefully.

The Boffins, as I continue to learn more about them in every section, have become an endearing entity for me. Good and kind people at the core, the Boffins want to be generous to those who may have drawn the short stick in attaining a better livelihood, due to the nature of the Boffins's newfound prosperity. They are loving and caring of one another, and of others as well. The type of couple many in present day strive to be. This couple is inspiring in so many ways.

The introduction to the Lammles, having just "heartily parted" with the Boffins, seemed curious and yet intentional, did it not? The two couples are the antithesis of one another in every aspect I can think.

Life in general, these days, fails to surprise me in any shape and form, unfortunately. I'm so glad to have this Dickens book in hand, where I'm in a constant state of shock at the end of every chapter. This particular section did not disappoint in the least bit, Tristram.

[Ami]

Tristram wrote: "The next chapter gives us “Mr. and Mrs. Boffin in Consultation”. It starts in the Boffin household, where Mrs. Boffin says that now they have come into property, it will not do for them to continue..."

We also get the first direct reference to the title of the novel here, when Mr. Boffin makes inquiries about the Wilfers’s lodger, calling him “Our Mutual Friend”.
I was excited to come upon this little bit because I've been wondering since the beginning if we had been introduced to the "mutual friend" within the first section; of course, it's none other than Mr. Rokesmith, and yes, he was right there in the first section.

Rokesmith and Bella by the Gate...

You took me by surprise,’ said Mr Rokesmith, ‘and it sounded like an omen, that you should speak of showing the Dead to one so young and blooming.’

Now, Bella suspected by this time that Mr Rokesmith admired her. Whether the knowledge (for it was rather that than suspicion) caused her to incline to him a little more, or a little less, than she had done at first; whether it rendered her eager to find out more about him, because she sought to establish reason for her distrust, or because she sought to free him from it; was as yet dark to her own heart. But at most times he occupied a great amount of her attention, and she had set her attention closely on this incident.

Tristram, I found this moment to be contrived by Dickens. Rokesmith's eyes directly fell upon Bella as he enters their house for the first time, and soon after, she tells her Pa, Between Mr. Rokesmith and me, there is a natural antipathy and a deep distrust' and something will come of it (39). He speaks to her directly, once, in this chapter and she "knows" him to admire her. Although, it may be true, and I base this on his behavior during their first meeting; his eyes absorbing every detail of her being, from the curls on her head to her general beauty. It feels forced, to propel a possible union between the two forward at this moment, or have I missed something in the narrative?

[Ami]

LindaH wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Chapter 10 is all about a wedding and “A Marriage Contract”, as its title already tells us. I think the narrator here prepares the opening for another storyline as he introduces tw..."

Cindy wrote: "I found all three of these chapters to be highly amusing. I loved Boffin's description of Wegg to the confused Rokesmith: "I have in my employment a literary man--with a wooden leg--as I have no th..."

@ Cindy...With the Boffins searching for a young orphan boy to take in and support, Charley Hexam popped into my head.
Yes, ma'am. I thought the very same thing as it would bring Charley back into the plot line. Ah, what tapestry Dickens continues to weave with his story telling yarns and strings.

@LindaH...Story Telling Yarns and multiple plot lines
Spinning yarn and knitting together a grand story for us to sink our minds into... A lot of yarn talk in these last two weeks worth of reading? LoL!

By the way, did you notice the Mephistopheles reference here, multiple times...He's a popular guy in the novels of these times?

[Ami]

Hilary wrote: "So true, Mary Lou. That song written by Sherman Kelly has had so many covers done of it. Popular song and no wonder since it's a feel-good song! Thanks for the link! :-)"

Mary Lou wrote: "Everyman, I'm surprised to hear you aren't (comparatively) enjoying OMF yet - I hope that changes for you soon. This one grabbed me right from the start.

Everyman and Hilary - As King Harvest onc..."

What a great song, Mary Lou...It holds a sweet spot in my mind, in general, but what a perfect song to post considering the direction of the conversation at the time. Thanks for that!

[Ami]

Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Dear Fellow-Curiosities,

Chapter 8 shows us “Mr. Boffin in Consultation” and gives us the opportunity to learn something more about the background story of the Harmon family – who..."

As much as the Boffins have love and concern for each other, the newly-wed Lammles harbour hate and cynicism for the Veneerings, society, and, I would suggest, even themselves.
I find, people such as the Lammles, actually think too highly of themselves and feed upon the fear of others in them. It draws from their false sense of confidence, considering they know not, or have not built upon a healthy ego. The false bravado, facades, defective sense of self...They are a vile bunch. You are right, this stems from a deep-rooted awareness of their ugliness and an unhappiness engrained from within.

[Everyman]

Tristram wrote: "I have the feeling that after the success of his first Christmas story, Dickens wrote the other Christmas books with a view to making money and to pandering to the public's sentimentality, ..."

Pandering to sentimentality is a good comment on all the Christmas stories. All of them.

[Everyman]

I have to admit that I have had enough of the Veneerings. I would be ecstatic if they faded out into the far distance after having performed whatever necessary function in the book Dickens intended for them.

Sometimes I think Dickens lays his humor on so thickly that it becomes no longer funny, but more "when can we get through this attempt at comedy and get on with something interesting."

[Ami]

Everyman wrote: "I have to admit that I have had enough of the Veneerings. I would be ecstatic if they faded out into the far distance after having performed whatever necessary function in the book Dickens intended..."

I think they are being used as a device to introduce new characters or spreading news, comparable to a newspaper. So, the Veneerings may be around for a while? They were intriguing in the beginning, but I can see how their presence could be wearing on a reader.

[Tristram]

Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "I have the feeling that after the success of his first Christmas story, Dickens wrote the other Christmas books with a view to making money and to pandering to the public's sentime..."

Maybe, all of the Christmas stories pander to sentimentality, Everyman, but I think the first one did it most successfully so that I can enjoy it without really noticing what it actually does to me, whereas the other stories were just too clumsy.

[Tristram]

I think the Veneerings are both a plot device in order to link certain characters of more importance to the plot, but they also stand for the kind of newly-rich that Dickens wants to criticize in this novel. What Chancery is to Bleak House and the Barnacles are to Little Dorrit, the Veneerings are in Our Mutual Friend. Like you, Everyman, I sometimes think that Dickens overdoes it but I can actually derive enjoyment out of it.

As to the Lammles, I think Alfred the worse of the two, exactly because of that underhandedly threatening moment you pointed out, Ami.

[Cindy]

Kim wrote: "And Cindy, my favorite version of ACC is the one with George C. Scott as Scrooge. Some of the other ones I like, but that is my favorite...."

I'm so glad you feel that way! I think George C. Scott was born to play that role! I am definitely going to check the older version out this year, though.

Tristram wrote: "@Cindy: I just love "It's a Wonderful Life", and well remember the time I saw it first as a child. I have made it a tradition to watch it with my wife and kids every year around Christmas :-) ...."

I know! I always cry when he saves the druggist from poisoning the family and at the end, when everyone is streaming into their house to donate money. It doesn't matter how many times I've seen it--it never fails to turn me into a gooey, tearful pile of Christmas cheer. Yes, it is an unabashed yank on the heartstrings from beginning to end, but the message is so true: Life is what happens while we're busy making other plans. For those of us hitting the half-century mark, this reality hits us like a slap in the face!

[Tristram]

Cindy wrote: "Kim wrote: "And Cindy, my favorite version of ACC is the one with George C. Scott as Scrooge. Some of the other ones I like, but that is my favorite...."

I'm so glad you feel that way! I think Geo..."

My wife and I are also fountains of tears when those two scenes come :-) And not ashamed of it!

[Judy]

I've really enjoyed looking at the illustrations Kim has posted in this thread, together with the commentary. Kim, can I ask, is the commentary taken from Dickens and His Illustrators by Frederic George Kitton, published in 1899? If so, is there a modern edition of this you would recommend where the illustrations are reproduced well, or is it better to look for an older copy? Thank you again.

[Bionic Jean]

Lavinia's view of George Sampson

"Miss Lavinia, having no confidence in his mental powers, and feeling his oration to have no definite application to any circumstances, jerked his stopper in again, with a sharpness that made his eyes water”

put me in mind of Amy Dorrit's elder sister Fanny's view of her equally dim beau, Mrs. Merdle's son Sparkler, whose highest accolade was always that a female had "no dashed nonsense about her"!

[Bionic Jean]

I am enjoying the writing in this novel immensely - even though the multiplicity of characters boggles my mind a little! It's good to be reading slowly and carefully, and have all your insightful comments too :)

I know the Boffins are probably supposed to be naive and unworldly, but I do like them a lot! The way they want to do their best, and share their good fortunes with others, even to adopting a little orphan and calling him John Harmon, is so essentially good-natured, A great contrast to the Veneerings! And equally I sit up whenever there's a bit with Silas Wegg in. Even though he's mercenary to the core, he's just so original and eccentric, I find him endearing (yes, I did say that Everyman - I can see you sputtering into your coffee there!)

[Bionic Jean]

Revealing my true colours regarding other matters.

1. A Christmas Carol is my favourite novel of all time :)

2. I feel much the same way about the film of "It's a Wonderful Life".

So I'm with you there Kim :)

3. I am really enjoying the "Christmas Books"! I knew them before, but as we read each one, I am discovering far more in it than I'd ever realised before I became an Old Curiosity. Shame on you Tristram, for your travesty of a description. I think you need to stand us all a round of drinks in the "Three Jolly Porters"! ;)

[Mary Lou]

Jean wrote: "Revealing my true colours regarding other matters.

1. A Christmas Carol is my favourite novel of all time :)

2. I feel much the same way about the film of "It's a Wonderful Life".

Me, three. I wonder if it's because women are more comfortable with their squishy, emotional sides.

[Bionic Jean]

"I wonder if it's because women are more comfortable with their squishy, emotional sides."

Oh yuck, Mary Lou :( Actually A Christmas Carol was my Dad's favourite book before mine, which may or may not have had a lot to do with it, and my husband converted me to the film.

Number 3 is all me though :)

[Kim]

Judy wrote: "I've really enjoyed looking at the illustrations Kim has posted in this thread, together with the commentary. Kim, can I ask, is the commentary taken from [book:Dickens and His Illustrators|7372384..."

Hi Judy, sorry it took me so long to answer this, it got lost in all the postings, but I finally found it. Usually I use the Victorian web for my commentaries, but not always for the illustrations themselves, I can often find them somewhere else to copy that is clearer. As for the commentaries on VW, if you have not read the book (any of them) I would advise you not to read the commentaries, they always give away the plot and I end up going through them and cutting out the obvious spoilers. This can take quite some time to do, usually it's a matter of taking a line or two out, other times I have to cut an entire paragraph, or just rewrite it. As for books like Dickens and his illustrations, I sometimes get commentaries from them, but they rarely write one on just a single illustration. I have a paragraph here (somewhere) to add about Riah when we get there. That was from John Forster's book (I think). As to copies of Kitton's book, I've only ever read it as an eBook so I'm not sure how other copies would be. My copy here (on my Kindle) doesn't show the illustrations at all but I know where to look for them if I want them anyway.

I hope this helps, and again, please don't read the ones from the Victorian web if you haven't read the book. Any of you. :-)

[Bionic Jean]

Duly noted! You are a mine of information, thanks Kim :)

[Peter]

Kim wrote: "Judy wrote: "I've really enjoyed looking at the illustrations Kim has posted in this thread, together with the commentary. Kim, can I ask, is the commentary taken from [book:Dickens and His Illustr..."

Hi Judy

I waited for Kim to answer you as she is a miracle of insight and work on the illustrations and their commentaries. We all owe her much thanks.

I do have a copy of the Kitton published in 1899 in its reprinted version. You can get a copy on Amazon. I've done a Goodreads review on it. Briefly, the reprint version is a photocopy of the original. Kitton is amusing, a Dickens fan and there is much information in the book. What is very disappointing, however, is the reproduction of the illustrations. They were very poor in quality. Still, the book is a good comprehensive, albeit biased, introduction to Dickens's illustrators.

[Judy]

Kim wrote: "Hi Judy, sorry it took me so long to answer this, it got lost in all the postings, but I finally found it. Usually I use the Victorian web for my commentaries, but not always for the illustrations themselves, I can often find them somewhere else to copy that is clearer. "

No worries Kim, many thanks for your reply and for all your work to post the illustrations and commentaries, which are fascinating. The Victorian Web is such a great resource - I hadn't remembered they had commentaries on the illustrations. Spoilers aren't an issue for me as I have read all Dickens's novels multiple times over the years (I've been pretty much obsessed since the age of 10!), but thank you for the warning, definitely important for first-time readers.

Getting the Kitton book on Kindle and referring to the illustrations separately sounds like a good option - I might well do that.

In the past I found Victorian Novelists and Their Illustrators by J.R. Harvey very useful on how to "read" these illustrations - I borrowed this from a library and don't have my own copy, and sadly it is now out of print, but I remember he explores elements like the pictures on the wall behind characters and what is put on the right and left sides of illustrations. I do also have a book about Phiz somewhere which I've been meaning to read for ages, must look this out.