2017 Proust Challenge: Book 4 Sodom and Gomorrah

[Joan]

I thinks so too. I also like when he writes about art and the interaction of viewer with art.

[Tom]

When Albertine asks Marcel to be direct, he spins out this lie that he's in love with Andree. And in response, I thought Albertine said something about a woman she loves and how she'd hate to lose a good friend (Marcel I'm guessing)? I thought that was confirmation that she was interested in women, but in subsequent conversation she says that she and Andree don't like women going with other women. Seems to me it's game on and nobody's being straight with anybody. Or am I missing something?

Edited to add: Apparently I did. It was Proust who talked about being no better off with the woman he loves and losing a good friend.

[Joan]

Yeah, but you are right about nobody be straightforward- these two play more mind games than quintessential college lovers- sheesh.

[Petra]

Tom, your observations are always dead on. I enjoy reading your posts.
The narrator and Albertine aren't very direct with each other. They are rather young (early 20s?), so it may be a case of learning to relate to the opposite sex, not wanting to be too open, yet wanting to keep the other's interest?

[Tom]

To me it's sort of like a long winded Sam and Diane a la Cheers.

Edited to add: Actually I am reminded of the sketch on Cheers where a plumber was relentlessly hitting on Rebecca and she finally tells him she's a lesbian, and he says "Yeah, I hear that a lot." and leaves.

It also seems that being homosexual means being promiscuous. There always seems to be a desperate and immediate need for sexual relations, which (while that is likely what they are limited to by society) never seem to go beyond that.

[Joan]

Tom wrote: "To me it's sort of like a long winded Sam and Diane a la Cheers.

Edited to add: Actually I am reminded of the sketch on Cheers where a plumber was relentlessly hitting on Rebecca and she finally t..."

It is surprising that Proust paints such a desperate picture of homosexual people despite the fact that he no doubt knew many gay men in stable, loving relationships; there were quite a few well known actors, writers, physicians & scientists in who lived openly and stably with their lovers in late 19th century Europe. I've not read his books, but George Chauncey, a professor of history at Columbia now (Yale until now), has written quite a bit about these overlooked non-dramatic lives.

[Tom]

I finished Chapter Two yesterday and the overall impression was that left by the film Ridicule, though the latter is much more cutthroat.

I think I feel worst for Saniette who seems to get a raw deal everywhere he goes and it does not seem like any fault of his own. Next would be Princess Sherbatoff, but she seems to be better than Proust's original description of her barren social life. Though the ridiculousness of her snubbing Marcel kind of ameliorates that feeling.

It seems that Chapter Three is devoted to the open secret of the Baron's sexual orientation. It sounds like just about everyone around him knows it, and he's blissfully ignorant of their knowing it. I did like the first part of the chapter on sleep though. Proust does seem to have an uncanny way of describing the indescribable.

[Tom]

Finished the book yesterday. Seems like the entire work could be shortened by a third if he just asked her what her orientation was.

[Petra]

Hahaha.....sometimes a question will remove doubt. He'd rather ponder things endlessly.

[Leslie]

I have finally gotten to this book. I'm not sure what to think about all the talk about 'inverts' (as my translation has it). It was a relief to get to the Princess's party!

[Joan]

Getting to the Princess’ party may be a relief, but throughout the series I always found it a relief to leave Guermantes’ parties ;-)

[Tom]

I agree. It goes to show how dense and complex the non party parts were that the parties were a sort of relief.

[Petra]

I always enjoy the parties at the beginning and, like Joan, am always glad when they end. They are long. LOL!

Leslie, I'm glad you reached this book. I enjoyed this volume.

[Leslie]

Petra wrote: "I always enjoy the parties at the beginning and, like Joan, am always glad when they end. They are long. LOL!

Leslie, I'm glad you reached this book. I enjoyed this volume."

lol! I don't think that they were actually that long in real time but Marcel goes into so much detail (not just of the parties of course) that it takes a long time to reach the end of them ;)

And Tom, I agree with your earlier comment that the revelation at the start of this book was not a surprise. Plenty of indicators of that in the previous book. What I did find a surprise was how forthright Marcel is being in discussing homosexuality in this book!

[Leslie]

I have gotten to the Balbec section -- the manager's malapropisms are hilarious!

[Petra]

LOL! I loved Camembert. That's how I read the name from that point onwards.
I enjoyed that section, too, Leslie.

[Leslie]

I am up to the gathering of the 'faithful' at the Verdurin's - it is interesting to see these people again.

[Leslie]

Perhaps I am being dense, but I don't understand why Albertine encourages Marcel if she is a lesbian. Does she want him as "a beard" (to hide her lesbianism) or is she bisexual and honestly attracted by him or what?

[Joan]

Could part of the draw be financial stability?

[Tom]

Joan wrote: "Could part of the draw be financial stability?"

That, or that's just the way they operate as a couple. It's screwed up, but "works" for them?

[Petra]

I agree with Tom. Being gay wasn't an accepted lifestyle, so cover up would have been the way to go and for a girl with no inheritance he offers a good lifestyle.
Albertine & Marcel are a weird couple as well. He, at least, is messed up.

[Tom]

And I suppose better the devil you know than the devil you don't. If Marcel's rendition is accurate, (view spoiler)[she was asking to return to him, whether due to "love", love, love of money or a huge Stockholm syndrome (or all of them for that matter). (hide spoiler)]

[Petra]

Hahaha..... so true.