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2017 Proust Challenge: Book 4 Sodom and Gomorrah
Joan wrote: "Dare I say, imagine if Our Dear Narrator had a Twitter account."He'd probably still be "writing" Swann's Way.
I understand that Sodom and Gomorrah was too salty a title, so some editions are Cities of the Plain.
Yes, sorry, my bad. I forgot that not all of us may be reading the same title. My copy is called Cities of the Plain, which is why I googled it. There had to be a connection, I thought. Perhaps the name doesn't imply anything; just a tamer title.
Is there any record of how Proust reacted to the title change of the translation? I think in the original French it was Sodome et Gomorrhe.
I know Proust is considered a leader of writing in stream-of-consciousness but sometimes he is just bizarre.In a single paragraph
1. scathing descriptions of guests at a dinner party
2. insightful statement: "...it is not only by lying to others, but also of lying to ourselves, that we cease to notice that we are lying..."
3. then just weird, "But let us leave here what would merit a chapter of its own, the profanation of mothers."
I've reread the paragraph and I still don't follow the connections.
That sounds weird, Joan. In what section is that paragraph? I'll keep my eyes open (although such a weird series of connections would be hard to miss).
Joan wrote: "Is there any record of how Proust reacted to the title change of the translation? I think in the original French it was Sodome et Gomorrhe."I wonder if he knew? The book was published in 1921 and he died in 1922. I wonder if it had been translated already?
Andree and Albertine......lesbian relationship or Narrator's vivid imagination? 1001 Nights - since the narrator has read the book as a child and his mother had his 2 copies sent from Paris, why is she shocked at the content of the stories? Why is she now pre-reading his books when he's a young adult? If the stories are docile enough for him to read as a child, why are they too risqué (?) for him as an adult?
Mme. Putbus' maid.....another obsession in the making??
Ah, the mysteries of Proust........
I enjoyed the train trip to the Verdurin's Wednesday party. What a motley crew....and so familiar, too. So many of these people have been going for....what?.....20+ years?! The Verdurins haven't changed. They are awful!
Morel and Charlus showing up at the party!!!! This should be fun. LOL!
How's everyone else doing? Where are we in this story?
Petra, we are nearly in the same place. My quote above about lying to others and ourselves segueing into profanation of mothers occurs during this party.I thought the comments about the Verdurin's not noticing their great view of the sea fit well with the All About Books Chit chat discussion about vacationing at home or away. It's so easy to miss sights at home.
I somehow missed Marcel's Mama's objections to 1000 and 1 nights.
The Putbus maid fixation is very odd - I just can't get past my 21st Century sensibility o I'm hung up on Marcel's objectification of women - though I know that is not fair really.
I'm at the beginning of the party. Will keep an eye open for that paragraph. Maybe I read more in Mama's objections than I should have? She seemed upset that he was reading such detailed sex (??....I haven't read 1001 Nights; may be mistaken) stories.
If I got it right, he never read the stories anyway.
HAHAHA!Cancan and Mme LeGrandin-Cambremer are priceless - I'm sure he is describing one of my cousins, nicknamed The Princess when we were kids.
It's such a shame that the Verdurin's don't see that view. I wonder if Proust is saying something along the lines of if one wants to see the beauty of an entire object/thing, one has to travel to the viewpoint (or object/thing)? The Verdurins only had to go to the end of their garden to see a spectacular, enchanting view but they are content to see the reflections of only the light coming through their windows.
The light caused the beauty and enchantment of the view at sunset. It was a part of the whole but isn't the whole. The Verdurins are content with a piece and aren't concerned about the whole.
The Verdurins seem to be missing the point.
Joan, I don't remember that chit-chat about vacationing at home. It's true that when one is at home, one enjoys the things closer at hand and doesn't explore one's city or region.
Ah it may have been a discussion in another group.I like your interpretation. Light, shadow and perception are recurring themes but I hadn't drawn them together as you did.
I'd be willing to put up with the Vedurin's just for the view.
Poor Cancan - my text says the word means either unkind gossip or the sound of a duck.
I'm close to the Cancan section, I think. The Cambremers have arrived. PS: I forgot to mention earlier that I loved the mistakes made by the Inn Manager when he spoke. When he called the Cambremers Camembert and passed that name on to his staff, I had to laugh.
I had to laugh too, at myself as well, because at first I thought they were typos in my book.
"Hardly one of the faithful could forebear from guffawing, and they looked like a band of cannibals whose taste for blood has be reawakened..."Our narrator is scathingly funny.
OMG just wait till you read how M. Charlus zaps M. Verdurin, and "resumes his delicate smile. "But then it goes on a bit too long, as usual I can't wait for the party to end so I can go home.
"For the instinct of imitation and absence of courage govern society and the mob alike. And we all of us laugh at a person whom we see being made fun of......"We are a fickle bunch. I wonder if we've learned much since Proust wrote these words.
Poor Saniette.
Joan, I'll be looking for Charlus' "delicate smile".
Joan wrote: "OMG just wait till you read how M. Charlus zaps M. Verdurin, and "resumes his delicate smile. "But then it goes on a bit too long, as usual I can't wait for the party to end so I can go home."
LOL! That was marvelous!
The Verdurins are such shallow people. They treat people horribly. Throughout this chapter I've been wondering why Saniette would continue to go to the parties. They are keeping him just a hair from not returning. That would be close enough for me not to return.
I didn't realize that Mme Cottard was at the party. I thought Cottard had come alone. That was a bit of a surprise.
There were some humorous one-liners after Charlus' comment but I was ready to leave the party, too. I would hate to be at a place where I was dependent on the train (and the group) to leave. That's too confining for me.
I was surprised that Mme Cottard was there too.I've heard some interviews with authors in which they say the characters come to life for them and take over the story.
So, I like to imagine Proust envisioning the party and suddenly realizing "oh Mme Cottard are you here, too!"
Mod
My copy is called Cities of the Plain, which is why I googled it. There had to be a connection, I thought. Perhaps th..."
Mine is Sodoma e Gomorra which I find appropriate to the theme of the book.
Proust here seems sort of obsessionated by the homosexuality of Charlus and the supposed tendency of Albertine. As in the first book with his relationship with his mother, I find his attitude towards Albertine unbarable!
Sodom & Gomorrah is an appropriate title. Cities Of The Plains is, too (having looked it up). I'm still curious as to why the second title was required. Most of us haven't heard of the other cities (at least, I haven't).
Happy Birthday, Marcel Proust!!!!In honor of this special day, lets all take a few moments to contemplate our navels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_...
thanks for that Petra, I had no idea!To ponder: how far is it from your town to the next one?
I just loved Marcel's musing about how the invention of the automobile changed perceptions of distance and time.
Chapter 3, I'm wishing I could go for tea at La Raspeliere - without the Verdurins, of course.And I'm feeling a bit sorry for M. Charlus- I've grown fond of the poor old goat.
Our narrator seems to be showing his ulterior motives as an author more often. He seems to admit watching people simply for material for his writing.
I reread the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in The Bible, Genesis chapter 19, and I must say Lot's behavior towards his daughters was just as reprehensible as anything the people of Sodom could've done. I can't imagine why he was saved by a just God.
Mod
In honor of this special day, lets all take a few moments to contemplate our navels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_..."
Happy birthday indeed!
Mod
To ponder: how far is it from your town to the next one?
I just loved Marcel's musing about how the invention of the automobile changed perceptions of distanc..."
This is something that made me think as well. Time is really relative!
Kudos to all of you for sticking with it! Yesterday was Proust's birthday, and I read the following in The Atlantic, written by Christopher Hitchens:
If I were asked to “summarize” the achievement of Proust, I should reply as dauntlessly as I dared that his is the work par excellence that exposes and clarifies the springs of human motivation. Through his eyes we see what actuates the dandy and the lover and the grandee and the hypocrite and the poseur, with a transparency unexampled except in Shakespeare or George Eliot. And this ability, so piercing and at times even alarming, is not mere knowingness. It is not, in other words, the product of cynicism. To be so perceptive and yet so innocent—that, in a phrase, is the achievement of Proust.
If I were asked to “summarize” the achievement of Proust, I should reply as dauntlessly as I dared that his is the work par excellence that exposes and clarifies the springs of human motivation. Through his eyes we see what actuates the dandy and the lover and the grandee and the hypocrite and the poseur, with a transparency unexampled except in Shakespeare or George Eliot. And this ability, so piercing and at times even alarming, is not mere knowingness. It is not, in other words, the product of cynicism. To be so perceptive and yet so innocent—that, in a phrase, is the achievement of Proust.
Terri, that's very nicely worded. I would agree that Proust's ability to see into the being of a person is what makes him so scathingly good. This is a work that could be read again and again, with always new discoveries. The more I read, the more I think this would be a good "if I were trapped on a desert island and could only save one book" book.
Thanks fro that snippet.
Petra, and reading about the social scene would remind you why it's nice to be alone.
Terri, thanks for that - I added it to B the Book Addict's "Today in Literary History" thread.
Comments from Stuff You Missed in History Class podcast on Catalina de Erauso, the Lieutenant Nun. (She spent most of her life dressing and living as a man.) In 17th century Spain, women were not considered a different gender, but rather an inferior version of men. Female sexual anatomy was considered an inversion of male sexuality, which might provide some insight into Proust's description of homosexuals as inverts. That said, he seems to be jumping through hoops to emphasize that homosexual relations are actually between two different genders, which I am guessing would be approximated by "butches" and "femmes" today.
Petra wrote: "Terri, that's very nicely worded. I would agree that Proust's ability to see into the being of a person is what makes him so scathingly good. This is a work that could be read again and again, wit..."
Tom, I have never heard of that podcast but it sounds interesting. Actually, I know very little about podcasts in general.
Joan, I'm not at that part yet but that spoiler comment made me laugh.
Tom wrote: "That said, he seems to be jumping through hoops to emphasize that homosexual relations are actually between two different genders, which I am guessing would be approximated by "butches" and "femmes" today. ..."That's an interesting comment, Tom (about women being an inferior version of men and the connection to invert). In a weird way, it rather has a sense of rationality.
That said, Proust is jumping through hoops to keep the idea of two sexes viable in a homosexual relationship.
Homosexuality was illegal (and disgraceful?) in Proust's time. Could he be rationalizing these relationships and making them "normal"? In his time, there must have been mind-games played to make such a relationship "moral' or "acceptable" or somehow rational. Maybe a homosexual, at that time, had to rationalize his/her sexual life, even to themselves, in order to live in society?
It must have been a terribly difficult time, with a lot of tight rope walking.
@Joan - You can think of them as radio shows on demand (unless it's a video podcast). If you have a program like iTunes, you can use it to subscribe to various podcasts and it will download new episodes when they they become available. This American Life is one of my favorite podcasts.@Petra - Yes, I was wondering about what transgender/transsexual people were thought of in that time, because it seemed to me Proust's description of a woman on the inside, man on the outside, seems to fit TG/TS better - but that of course is a perspective from a different time.
Mod
Indeed!!!
Mod
In Italy they were considered as such till not so far ago, say 50 years or so. Not always, not everywhere, but still inferior. Remeber that women could vote for the first time in Italy only after the WWII. Before they were considered not intelligent or responsable enough ....
I was wondering why Proust keeps mentioning M. Charcot, M.D, a doc whose name appears in the names of many diseases. I found out he was known as "The Napoleon of Neuroses" and Proust's father worked with him.The British Medical Journal
http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2016/06/01/r...
Train travel in those days was certainly different, all that chitchat at each stop with locals the our narrator suspects come to the station just because they don't have anything else to do.
LauraT wrote: "Before they were considered not intelligent or responsable enough .... ..."That was unfortunate for everyone. I'm glad that we're slowing moving past that. It still exists in certain cultures and in certain societal levels (ie: it's easier for a man to advance his career, I think). It is better than it was but there's a long way to go, too.
Joan wrote: "I was wondering why Proust keeps mentioning M. Charcot, M.D, a doc whose name appears in the names of many diseases. I found out he was known as "The Napoleon of Neuroses" and Proust's father worke..."I liked "the Carl Sagan of his era". LOL!
He must have been rather brilliant to have tackled diseases such as multiple sclerosis, Tourette's syndrome and muscular dystrophy. Those couldn't have been easy diseases to follow in his day.
Using photography to document his patient's diseases and learn from them was brilliant, too.
Thanks, Joan! This is one interesting man.
"When I reflected that their trees.......would outlive me, I seemed to be receiving from them a silent counsel to set myself to work at last, before the hour of eternal rest had yet struck."The narrator is finally starting to think beyond immediate pleasures. This may be his first thought on his own mortality and the limited time we all have for doing what is important to us.
@Petra, I was struck by that sentiment, too. Marcel does seem to finally start growing up & shows more of himself toward the end of the book, and I (view spoiler)@Tom, I caught a broadcast of "This American Life" on the radio today, it was called "To Be Real". Thanks for alerting me to it; it was good.
I've finished the book. It is now one of my favorites- Proust's skill continues to impress me as in the last bit (view spoiler). I am always amazed when talented authors and poets can manipulate the reader's pace to convey the emotion.
I'm glad he starts to grow on the reader, Joan. At the moment, he's driving me crazy with his jealousies and peevishness. He gives Saint-Loup "permission" to visit on particular days only. OMG! he schedules his best friend's visits, when his friend is the one with a job and work routine???!!!!!
He hardly allows Saniette to visit because he's a "bore". Has he looked in a mirror??!!
Yeah, at the moment, he's not endearing himself to me. Looking forward to seeing another side.
Hmm, I'm a total misanthrope in real life but an optimist about characters in novels (she admits sheepishly)
All About Books
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Sodoma e Gomorra (other topics)American Gods (other topics)
All Our Wrong Todays (other topics)
Marcel Proust's Search for Lost Time: A Reader's Guide to The Remembrance of Things Past (other topics)
The Picture of Dorian Gray (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
George Chauncey (other topics)William Shakespeare (other topics)
Dear Lord! LOL! It would be entertaining but so politically incorrect at times and whiny at others."
Can't think of it!!!