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2017 Proust Challenge: Book 4 Sodom and Gomorrah
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Tom
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Jun 21, 2017 07:48PM
Well I think it's meant to imitate the plantdar that insect has to locate a suitable pollen receptacle.
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We are back to The Dreyfus Scandal.I see a similarity to political divisions today in the U.S., The U.K. and Western Europe - more passion than thought, more innuendo than information.
M. Charlus was probably based on a real person, Robert Comte de Montesquiou-Fezensac, a poet and dandy according to the endnotes in my book.And Montesquiou reportedly did rant at a woman about colic as the Baron does to poor Mme. de Saint-Euverte.
Truth stranger than fiction
I'm going to visit with family; will be back on Wednesday. Proust is coming with me. I've got a total of 4 hours on the ferry to kill, so should make a fair amount of progress.
I'll catch up when I get back.
Joan, I've got a copy of Marcel Proust's Search for Lost Time: A Reader's Guide to The Remembrance of Things Past. I never think to pick it up, though, meaning to read it after we finish (spoilers). I should dig into it a bit and see if there are some interesting tidbits about our new friends. I think there's a chapter listing the characters.
@Petra, that sounds interesting- I'll check my library.I am such a total geek, fact addict that I actually seek out annotated books and read all the end notes as I go.
For books like this, I'll read critical analysis after I finish it.
Our narrator mentions Serge Diaghilev, Igor Stravinsky and The Ballet Russe.The U.S. National Gallery had an exhibition of on this topic years ago - I loved it.
They posted a video about it here https://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb/au...
The costumes were beautiful but so stiff and heavy, it is hard to imagine dancing in them.
I was away for the weekend so I am behind on my reading but I imagine The Rite of Spring was mentioned considering the cast mentioned above. I saw a performance a few years ago and it is surprising how our modern ears have relegated the work to the mainstream rather than the riot inducing experience it was when it premiered.
I've never seen it performed but I see what you mean about it no longer being revolutionary.I heard a piece by George Crumb the other day was surprised by my own response - it didn't set my teeth on edge as his work has in the past. :)
Joan wrote: "I've never seen it performed but I see what you mean about it no longer being revolutionary.I heard a piece by George Crumb the other day was surprised by my own response - it didn't set my teeth ..."
Yes and Proust has already discussed that fact. I don't remember where but I know there was a discussion about new works becoming old, accepted works.
@Tom, I had forgotten that but it ties into his theme about habit - like hotel rooms that are distressing until habit makes them comforting.
I wish I knew more about French conventions in the early nineteen hundreds. At the beginning of Part 2 Chapter 2 (view spoiler)
I'm back!! Joan, don't forget that our narrator can be a real jerk at times. :D (I haven't gotten to that part yet so don't take me seriously. :D)
Who knew that Proust would make such a good travelling companion?! I really enjoyed having him along on my travels; the writing mixes very well with a slower, more relaxed lifestyle. I did more hiking than reading but am thoroughly enjoying the party. I feel rather sorry for Swann; I keep wanting to get back to his story but it seems as soon as the narrator gets close to his company someone butts in and takes his attention away.
There was a strange couple of paragraphs where Proust the author puts himself in the story. A reader (could probably have been any of us) inserted himself first....something about that part of the story going on and on.... and Proust the author states that his memory at the time of writing isn't what it used to be. In the end, Proust the author says something along the lines of "Reader, be quiet and let me go on with my story". LOL!
Proust mentions how a new theory about perspiration. Some doctors agreed with the theory; others didn't. This is very modern with our on-going "studies": 1. butter is bad for you; margarine better ....... no, wait: butter is good for you; margarine is bad.
2. egg yolks will kill you with cholesterol....no wait, yolks are good for you.
Just goes to show that our World really doesn't change much. We're still trying to find our way.
Dreyfus-ism is mentioned in this book but it's not a political thing anymore, it seems; it seems to have become something more social (like: if you are a Dreyfusist, you are a social outcast). The politics of his guilt or innocence no longer seem to matter but whether one sides with him or not is the issue. (poor Swann)Another side effect of this social aspect of the Dreyfus Affair is to have brought yet another Secret Society into play. It seems that Swann's agreement with Dreyfus (a Jew) proves that there is a secret Jewish society working against the social elite of Paris (or perhaps all of France).
Lastly (for now), the narrator makes a point of how Time evens out all of our social and/or positional differences. He states that, in the present, one knows the upbringing of people by their words, phrases, customs but that looking back a generation (or more) at pictures, everyone looks the same (styles, poses, looks, etc).
" ....social, and even individual differences are merged when seen from a distance in the uniformity of an epoch." (pg 707 in my edition)
Petra wrote: "Who knew that Proust would make such a good travelling companion?! I really enjoyed having him along on my travels; the writing mixes very well with a slower, more relaxed lifestyle. I did more h..."
I'm glad you are enjoying your vacation. Funny, many of the points you picked out struck me as well. I especially liked his observation about similarities of epoch out overshadowing differences in caste. I thought it perceptive at first, but now I can't decide if I agree, because I know so little about the lives of middle and lower classes in the past.
Petra wrote: "Proust mentions how a new theory about perspiration. Some doctors agreed with the theory; others didn't. This is very modern with our on-going "studies": 1. butter is bad for you; margarine better..."
Hah hah - too true but I always thought margarine tasted nasty.
I am wondering if tiresome wimps are made or born - nature or nurture?
Joan wrote: "I especially liked his observation about similarities of epoch out overshadowing differences in caste. I thought it perceptive at first, but now I can't decide if I agree, because I know so little about the lives of middle and lower classes in the past. . ..."I wonder if any particular Time is a factor in the equation (in this case)?
Consider our middle and lower classes today. Today we would notice a difference in body language, spoken language & slang and how one carries oneself through the day. But, in the future, looking at a snapshot of two people in jeans and t-shirts, one couldn't tell the other differences as clearly, if at all.
I think I would agree with Proust. I'll keep pondering the idea/thought, though.....but, for now, I think I agree with him.
I've been thinking (again) that Proust would probably be my desert island book. His insights are relevant and pertinent, in his time, today and probably in the future. I imagine that if one were to reread this work, one would find even more insights and thought provoking ideas.
I've returned from my visit. While at step-dad's place, I'm completely without internet. Going over there is like a step back to the past. It's quite refreshing, really.....although I do miss checking in occasionally.
Joan wrote: "I am wondering if tiresome wimps are made or born - nature or nurture?"LOL! That is a question to ponder, Joan. :D
Petra wrote: "Joan wrote: "I am wondering if tiresome wimps are made or born - nature or nurture?"LOL! That is a question to ponder, Joan. :D"
I love hearing about folks visiting step-parents.
I'm a step-mom and I hope my step-children and step-grandchildren will always look forward to visiting Grammy-Joan.
They will, Joan. Family is family. It's the fun (and hard) times that bind us all together.
Very intriguing! What could Swan have meant when he said "there is another reason (for taking you into my confidence) as well, which you will learn one day"??? Secrets, secrets.....this volume seems full of them. LOL!
Our narrator has found out that when a person ceases to be loved, that the person no longer has a desire to see him/her. He so wanted to one day go back to Gilberte to show her that he didn't care whether he saw her. Now that he no longer cares, he finds out that he truly doesn't care whether he sees her again.
A person is only important in our lives if they mean something to us.
You (Joan and Petra) have been busy. Still behind, but hoping to get some reading done this weekend.
Mod
Interesting the very first pages on homosexuality, written more than a century ago.
Only to think that a week ago my major refused the patronage to our gay pride ...
Tom, I had some time while on a visit to family on Vancouver Island. Proust was a surprisingly refreshing travel companion. It showed me that he's best read while one is in a relaxed situation. Sometime, when working, I must be too tired or mentally busy and Proust can seem more tedious at times. However, on vacation, I found this to be wonderful reading. That doesn't mean, by the way, that I don't enjoy Proust while working. There's just a difference, I found, when relaxing while reading such deliberate, slow-paced writing.
Laura, I'm so glad you're joining us!
Yes, I found Proust's views on homosexuality very modern indeed. He lives in the time of Oscar Wilde. Poor Oscar was ostracized and imprisoned for homosexuality. Were the views of England and France so different? Or was Proust more liberal in thought because he was homosexual?
I was going to say the while Proust seems modern in some ways, he also has misconceptions about Gaydar - but then I checked the current research on perceptions of sexuality and was surprised to find this in Psychology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...
Thank goodness I checked before sounding off.
"Canadian psychologist Nicholas Rule studies social intuitions—the snap judgments we make about people we’ve just met. In a series of experiments, he and his colleagues tested people’s abilities to judge others’ sexual orientation, and came to the conclusion that gaydar is real. And the way it works tells us a lot about the nature of social intuitions in general."
On the subject of Equal rights, I have to crow a bit about my step-daughter and her wife who took their fight with the state of Tennessee all the way to the U. S. Supreme Court. And on June 26, 2015 they won!https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...
"On Friday morning, the U.S. Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision ruled same-sex marriage was constitutional and Tennessee's refusal to recognize such unions was unconstitutional....Tanco told reporters..."There are no words for how important it is for me to know that my family is protected."
Tanco and spouse Sophy Jesty, both both professors at the University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine here, were the lead plaintiffs among several from Tennessee who challenged the state's stance in the courts."
I am very proud of them and their bravery.
The case is known as Obergefell vs Hodges.
Our narrator quotes a poem that was also used by Faure for a lovely aria.https://youtu.be/UtPFtr1MLP4
The recording is amateurish, but this man's voice is really good. (I do not know who he is - he looks like a student somewhere).
The poem is Ici-bas by Sully-Prudhomme.
Mod
LOL! Laura, I thought that in Volume 3. Those parties are real downers & a whole lot of gossip and judgement. I found the one party (so far) in this volume to be rather entertaining. Perhaps it was my mood or being on vacation and not the party. :D
I'm glad you're enjoying this. Proust can be slow to read but he can say an awful lot in those passages, too. Sometimes, though, I'm sure I miss his message in all those words. LOL!
I enjoyed the party at the Princess' but it did drag towards the end. Our narrator is certainly a party boy - do you suppose he ever gets tipsy?
This made me smile:"People would point out this pale, enigmatic figure who had aged without turning white, but rather had gone red, like certain long-lasting, shriveled fruit in the hedgerows. ".
Yikes, he's harsh.
LOL! He does have a way with words. No mincing, that's for sure.
I just finished Part Two: Chapter One. I love how Proust ends his sections in this book. Each ending is a touching, heartfelt moment. ETA: My mistake. I haven't finished Chapter One yet; just reached the end of a section of it. I'm about to start The Intermittencies of the Heart.
I like how the narrator remembers the family home and gardens in Combray when he sees a statuette in the foyer of Mme de Montmorncy's home.
Especially touching is his remembrance of Eulalie when he hears the tinkling of the hand bell.
Family are people one never forgets, even after they are gone and we continue with our lives. They are always remembered in small moments.
Ok, now that I've finished American Gods and All Our Wrong Todays, I'm hoping to return to some to Proust soon. I think one of the advantages of the series is that we can remember right along with Marcel the people from his past, like Eulalie. Thing is, we probably could not come up with those memories on our own, but they resurface with the right prompt.
Joan wrote: "Finished Part II chapter 1 Just when I thought our dear narrator was growing up and starting to consider the feelings of others, he reverts to his usual self. His grief over his Grandmother's deat..."I just finished Part 2: Chapter 1 as well.
Joan, I agree. The imagined scenes between the father, grandmother and narrator were humorous and illuminating. He's dealing with a lot of regret.
I quite liked the narrator's description of grief, want, longing and regret of thinking about a loved one.
It seems as if his grief was pushed back for a year. He didn't face it; just continued with his life.....maybe keeping extra busy with parties in order not to think or feel about the loss of Grandmother. Grief can't be ignored.
Balbac brought back everything. His grief couldn't be held back and, having been ignored for a year, came on full force and with vengeance. It was a heartbreaking scene.
On the other hand, it's also a lovely scene of love. He finally faces her death, her love and her place in his heart always.
"I had no wish to remain there by myself...I asked Francoise to go and find Albertine, so that she might spend the evening with me.""Albertine...asked me whether we could not arrange..to meet daily. I told her that...I would rather send for her from time to time at the last moment."
Boy! Way to make a girl feel special and cared for, Narrator! (said sarcastically, if there's a doubt)
What a self-centered a**!
This makes Albertine seem more of a prostitute in his eyes than a girlfriend or a friend of any kind. As Albertine, I would feel used and unappreciated.
I wonder what she sees in him.
Tom wrote: "Well I think it's meant to imitate the plantdar that insect has to locate a suitable pollen receptacle."just catching up with comments now. Plantdar! Tom you crack me up.
Joan wrote: "I was going to say the while Proust seems modern in some ways, he also has misconceptions about Gaydar - but then I checked the current research on perceptions of sexuality and was surprised to fin..."gaydar is definitely real. I used to live with a gay couple in college and it was a riot, we were in school in southern california and they would take me to all of the west hollywood cool hangouts. I have never enjoyed being a third wheel more! And yes, gaydar was a big (and hilarious) part of our days together.
Joan wrote: "On the subject of Equal rights, I have to crow a bit about my step-daughter and her wife who took their fight with the state of Tennessee all the way to the U. S. Supreme Court. And on June 26, 201..."congratulations to them Joan and thanks for sharing the case citation! (I'm a lawyer and I will definitely look it up!) They are also lucky to have you, not every couple in that situation has family who is so supportive.
Joan wrote: "This made me smile:"People would point out this pale, enigmatic figure who had aged without turning white, but rather had gone red, like certain long-lasting, shriveled fruit in the hedgerows. ".
..."
these insanely offensive insults in proust don't phase me much lol! I remember in the first few pages the comments about fat behinds and people being cows!
Dare I say, imagine if Our Dear Narrator had a Twitter account.
I quickly looked at "cities of the plain" this morning, wondering how it tied in with Sodom & Gomorrah. Turns out there were 5 cities; four which were destroyed and one that was saved. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_...)I wonder who or what group is saved in this book.....or whether that information ties in at all.
Sodom seems to refer to gays; Gomorrah to lesbians. Who/What would be Admah, Zeboim and Bela (the saved city)?
Joan wrote: "Dare I say, imagine if Our Dear Narrator had a Twitter account."Dear Lord! LOL! It would be entertaining but so politically incorrect at times and whiny at others.
Mod
LOL!!!
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