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June 2017 Group Read: The Pacifist #BOM-june-2017
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Quantum
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Jun 12, 2017 09:18PM
What do you readers think of the characters? By the end of the first chapter, Malcom is thoroughly unlikeable and the rest are more or less under this thumb.
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Ian wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Hardly dirt road. An arduous trip? Depends on the driver and the car. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Pa......"Well, I am sorry that yours and Leonie's cars suffered such bad injuries on present day NSW dirt roads. But on a beautiful dry, sunny day, Malcolm's trip down those roads was not bad. He had a good car and a seasoned driver. Let's move on.
Leonie wrote: "I went to a panel yesterday at the convention I've just finished, and the panel discussed the use of language quite thoroughly - from the point of view of non-whites writers and readers. The consensus was that allowing people to grow, by using culturally appropriate terminology is a good thing."I don't think that this even applies in this situation b/c in this book it's a choice of terms between 2 British-English-dominated variants. (Neither do I see how it applies to historical voice.) It really only applies to the Filipino and Indian English examples.
However it is a relevant and interesting question in those contexts. I'll open another thread for it.
Now we have got over dirt road driving, time for more questions. Symbolism has a big place in literary fiction, so I thought it would be good to hear from you all on this. Throughout the book, we see a number of dreams. What do you think the role of dreams should be? In my writing, I think I have only included a dream once, and that was intended not to be symbolic, but rather the subconscious trying to give the protagonist a clue as to how to solve what appeared to be an insoluble problem. So, I am not big on dreams, but that raises the question, when should you include them and what effect should they have? In my example above, the dream was critical to the plot because it led to the solution of the problem, but what do the following dreams mean? Being early in the book, do they make an impact, and if so, what did you make of them when first reading? (Then issue here is, if making unusual and additional points, when should you do it in the book?)In Chapter 2, young Malcolm had dreams of snakes, etc, and we knew he was keeping pet snakes. What does the dream tell us? Anything more than that Malcolm is thinking about snakes? (I confess that was all I made of it when I read it.) This is quickly followed by Malcolm dreaming of an angel, and the angel does not know where God is? What do you all make of that?
i'm at 34% and i was just enraged at the abuse that Peter (and others) went through at the orphanage. i read a couple of years ago that this level of abuse did actually occur in Australian orphanages. unfortunately, it isn't limited to only Australia nor to orphanages.
Alex wrote: "i'm at 34% and i was just enraged at the abuse that Peter (and others) went through at the orphanage. i read a couple of years ago that this level of abuse did actually occur in Australian orphanag..."Yeah I agree Alex. This kind of child abuse is rampant everywhere around the world. People need to stop it. Enough is enough!
Sorry for getting to this so late. I'm about 40% of the way through. Below is a scattering of thoughts based on my first impressions and what the group has been talking about.First impressions
I admit that I've been confused at times. Some parts of the book flow really well and I am fully immersed for a few pages. Then there are others where the sentences seem disjointed. Perspectives change in the middle of a paragraph, sometimes scenes do as well. I've had to re-read sections quite often to make sure I get exactly what's going on.
Mehreen has done a great job of creating a sense of time and place. It's not easy to write about a period that you didn't live through.
Is it just me or is the relationship between Mrs. Baxter and Malcolm bordering on inappropriate?
Mr. Baxter is rather "chill" about the fact that Tiara isn't his.
As Alex said, the depictions of abuse at the orphanages is rage-inducing.
Use/Overuse of Detail
I have found so far that the descriptions do slow the pace somewhat. It's definitely a fine line between what the reader needs to know and what the author wants to tell.
In the historical fiction that I've read, the descriptions are reserved for describing things that the reader may not be familiar with. Streets in 17th century Amsterdam, for example, were quite different than they are today. Describing one, therefore, becomes important.
That said, if something hasn't changed much, I question whether it needs to be described in detail.
Voice
I haven't noticed it so far. I think the setting is portrayed well and there isn't any modern slang used. The only thing that gave me pause was "No worries." Not sure if it was said at the time, but it seemed rather modern.
To me, the distinction is between the narrator's voice and the character voices. In historical fiction pieces, you tend to see the characters speak a certain way, but the narrator be much more neutral. One of the best examples of this I can think of is David Liss.
Dreams
They can be used to illuminate a character's sub-conscience. Problems during the day can be manifested in all manner of ways in dreams. And the nice thing about dreams is that they don't have to align that closely with reality. The writer has licence to say whatever he or she wants to say.
I think as long as they don't go on for too long and, of course, add value to the plot, they can be a valuable device.
Chapter 1/Going Back in Time
The only thing I can guess so far as that Malcolm is the manifestation of everything Peter went through. Like Leonie, I also thought the story was going to be about Malcolm.
I like "going back in time" technique when it is mixed with reality. In Nik's first book, he does this really well. When something happens in the present, he connects it to the past.
Category/Title
Historical Drama fits best, I think. I don't know much about the paranormal genre, but there seem to be some shades of it.
I have no clue about the title so far.
Random
I did notice "all intensive purposes" at one point near the beginning. Was that intentional?
Historical Note: The Pacifist pre-dates federation of Australia.Linguistic Note: "No worries"
https://britishisms.wordpress.com/201...
"But looking into the matter I see that the the phrase itself has deep British roots. The Times used it 463 times between 1785 and 1985–for example, in the 1970 headline NO WORRIES FOR CELTIC. The Aussie innovation–now picked up in the U.S., with a vengeance–may have been to isolate the two words as a response to thank you or I’m sorry."
"all intensive purposes" here means generally for all kinds of intensive jobs. It is a correct usage, but archaic, not in the sense of the eggcorn, "to all intends and purposes" or "for all intends and purposes". Thanks for raising this issue.
Literary Note: This book is not so much an action-based novel, but more introspective which is why the language is heavy. It is not a light book.
47% -- gripping tale of Rosie's insanity, or was it? At the beginning of "Moldy Batter", "the psychiatrist noted paranormal behavior that science couldn't explain." (Yes, Kent, I agree that it does start to get that way now with Rosie's scenes.)I did quite like those scenes. Very creepy.
What do my fellow readers think?
Mehreen wrote: ""all intensive purposes" here means generally for all kinds of intensive jobs. It is a correct usage, but archaic, not in the sense of the eggcorn, "to all intends and purposes" or "for all intends and purposes". Thanks for raising this issue."Interesting. I went back and read the sentence again and that it makes sense now. I do wonder if there is another phrase that would remove any confusion.
Alex wrote: "What do my fellow readers think? "
Creepy, indeed, however it all happened so fast. I didn't feel as though I had a chance to digest her issues. One minute she was hearing voices, the next she was passed out in the woods.
My guess is that there was a massive overreaction by the medical staff at the hospital. And no doubt the orphanage put the word out to have any "iffy" children sent there.
Kent wrote: "Mehreen wrote: ""all intensive purposes" here means generally for all kinds of intensive jobs. It is a correct usage, but archaic, not in the sense of the eggcorn, "to all intends and purposes" or ..."I found the words in that string had a rhythm, an iambic pentameter if you like and a good fit for the overall description of the character's upbringing in the orphanage. Again, purely a linguistic choice.
Just wanted to let everyone know that since the sun will be rising along the eastern shores of the Australian continent on 18 June in less than 2 hours, we can now discuss the entire book without spoiler tags.
One question, one comment:1. Is there special significance attached to the 159-pound gold nugget? i.e. was it the size of the largest nugget found in Australia at that time? And how big were the duffel bags back then? Such a nugget seems rather unwieldy, especially for someone who hasn't eaten very well for an extended period of time.
2. I couldn't understand how Rose didn't read the red folder when she went to Peter's study. It was the one thing she set out to do. But then she gets "distracted" by the gun and diamonds. The scene comes to an end without learning anything more. Only later do we find out that she didn't read the folder immediately because she went into labour. From what I could gather, she didn't leave the study, go to her room, and then go into labour. She even had time to put the folder on the table in the balcony, so she should've had time to read it as well.
So far, nobody seems to have taken up my challenge relating to symbolism in the early parts of the book. Tempt things in perspective, a 159 lb nugget is the weight of many adult women. A lot of weight to lug around. I am also not sure there were duffel bags then. While on nuggets, there was an earlier one, which seemed to come and go. What did everyone make of this?
Re time jumps, I found the introduction of Peter Baxter a little confusing. Does anyone else feel this could have been the start, and the Malcolm bits finish up? Or is there something to be gained by doing it this way? Comments?
I noticed the "grassy billabong". Mehreen, why was "grassy" there? Was there something special we were supposed to take, given that eucalypts are never that dense?
Another question I have for Mehreen is this statement that the farm could not be sold because all children and offspring were held by the contract. Was there some very special law around then, because a general principle of law is nobody is bound by a contract they did not sign. The farm could be handed back to the orphanage on Farmer Brown's death, if the contract so said, but tying up the offspring should require a voluntary commitment by the child, who must be of adult age.
Ian wrote: "So far, nobody seems to have taken up my challenge relating to symbolism in the early parts of the book. Tempt things in perspective, a 159 lb nugget is the weight of many adult women. A lot of w..."
The contractual obligation is fiction. It is to show the idiosyncratic behaviours of our institutions in a metaphorical sense. However, in those days, unreasonable caveats did exist.
Carpet bags sometimes also served as a "railway rug", a common item in the 19th century for warmth in drafty, unheated rail-cars. The rug could either be opened as a blanket, or latched up on the sides as a traveling bag. From Robert Louis Stevenson's Travels with a Donkey in the Cévennes (1879): "... my railway-rug, which, being also in the form of a bag, made me a double castle for cold nights."
I took the idea from here. But I called it duffle bag.
Kent "unwieldy"? I don't know. People sometimes get strength from all kinds of sources. This is particularly true in battlefields and refugee camps. People have been seen to walk miles in situations they were fleeing from. It is mysterious that sometimes strength does not always come from nutrition as in strictly "scientific" terms.Rose doesn't read the folder in the end, because she was starting to feel unwell from labour. Rose is very sensitive and fragile.
OK Mehreen. I was not questioning the existence of bags - merely the word duffle. Yes, the contract is actually not important, because Farmer Brown was hardly likely to know if some terms violated tort law :-)
Ian wrote: "OK Mehreen. I was not questioning the existence of bags - merely the word duffle. Yes, the contract is actually not important, because Farmer Brown was hardly likely to know if some terms violate..."
The word duffle has been around since the 17th century but in Australia it was called 'swag'. Retrospectively, on this occasion I do realise that I should have used 'swag' instead of 'duffle'.
However, to change gear, do you think there is a problem with POV?
Actually, no. I think I always worked out whose PoV it was, so from my point of view, it's OK. I was also curious why you didn't use "swag" given you were happy enough to use "billabong"
Ian wrote: "Actually, no. I think I always worked out whose PoV it was, so from my point of view, it's OK. I was also curious why you didn't use "swag" given you were happy enough to use "billabong""
I think, at the time, duffle sounded better than swag. Billabong has rhythm, swag doesn't. I made a lot of both linguistic and literary choices through the book, which may not always be historical or even grammatical. There are some stream of consciousness elements there too. Sometimes, I chose them for prosody, other times for applicability in the linguistic context. And I also didn't want to make a distinction between Australian lingua and other kinds variety. For me, I chose words from a pool of international diction. Just as there is an IPA, there should also be a similar association for words under international lexical system, regardless of where they come from. IMO.
I have not had the chance to read The Pacifist yet, but I've been following this thread with interest. As a historical fiction author, I can say there is just no way to please everyone. Some will say the language is too modern, others will say it's not modern enough. Some will be bored with the historical details, others will want more. I think the most important thing for any genre is to tell the story. If the story appeals to the intended audience, the small details become insignificant. Best sellers are hardly best sellers because of their real or perceived accuracy. The story is everything.The word swag means something totally different here so I would have stumbled over it moreso than duffel. It's ultimately up to the author how to handle word choices as well as how much of the book should be historical and how much should be fiction. It sounds like Mehreen put much thought and care into balancing these elements of the story. My question for Mehreen is, where did you get the idea/inspiration for this story and do you plan to write a sequel?
Marie Silk wrote: "I have not had the chance to read The Pacifist yet, but I've been following this thread with interest. As a historical fiction author, I can say there is just no way to please everyone. Some will s..."Thank you Marie. Yes, I went to visit a lighthouse once in Byron Bay. I found the place really enchanting. That's what gave me the inspiration to look into story that deals with both ancestry as well as history. A sequel? Probably not. One book was enough.
Mehreen wrote: "One book was enough."Hi Mehreen! Do you mean you're finished with writing or just this story?
Eldon wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "One book was enough."Hi Mehreen! Do you mean you're finished with writing or just this story?"
Oh no, not finished with writing, Eldon. Just not writing a sequel.
Mehreen wrote: "Eldon wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "One book was enough."Hi Mehreen! Do you mean you're finished with writing or just this story?"
Oh no, not finished with writing, Eldon. Just not writing a sequel?"
Cool.
We are now coming to the end of the month. How about those who have finished it giving a summary of what they felt were the good points, and maybe the lesser points?
To sum up on the comment of 159 pound, which is the weight of an adult women. Readers have perhaps missed that Peter had taken not just his horse but also a cart to carry his heavy nugget back.
Mehreen, where exactly was this goldfield? I was never quite sure about that while reading.
There were quite a few of them. Ophir, Hawkins' Hills from Hill End gold rush heritage and Tallow. This particular one was in Hawkins' Hills. It is mentioned in the chapter.
Oops, did I miss that. As an aside, where are Hawkins' Hills?
Ian wrote: "Oops, did I miss that. As an aside, where are Hawkins' Hills?"The Hawkins' Hills? They are in
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/...
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/art...
I believe there is Hawkins' Hill in NZ too.
Ha, a bit north of Bathurst. For what it is worth, Mehreen despite the fact that I missed the reference to Hawkins' Hills, I got the impression from reading the book that it would be somewhere in that area, so your writing was consistent :-)
Mehreen wrote: "To sum up on the comment of 159 pound, which is the weight of an adult women. Readers have perhaps missed that Peter had taken not just his horse but also a cart to carry his heavy nugget back."it might have been lost in the editing; i didn't see that in my copy.
Ian wrote: "We are now coming to the end of the month. How about those who have finished it giving a summary of what they felt were the good points, and maybe the lesser points?"
one of the story's strengths is its poetic turns: "She could see through to a parallel world; the nuanced dance of the celestial lights; life-giving properties of luminous rainbow colors; loaded dendrites of love and jealousy."
however, the delineation between the imagery and plot were muddled. that made the story difficult to follow. at some point, you as the reader, have to decide whether to accept that or not.
What this means is that in her insanity Rose could see a higher world which most people couldn't. But of course it is up to readers what they accept.
BTW, The cart is there.
Here are my thoughts on good/lesser points:I thought the period was captured really well. Careful attention was paid to the details, which really brought the setting to life.
The psychological torment experienced by a number of the characters was well described. It created ample motivation for their various decisions.
The writing was eloquent and, given the era, fitting.
What I struggled most with was pacing. It wasn't a speed thing, but rather about consistency. There were times when mundane actions were described in detail and then other times where a scene felt rushed. I did notice that things evened out in the 2nd half of the book. I think that was a result of more narrative and less description.
Overall, a commendable work of fiction. So many complex issues that had to be dealt with delicately while still keeping the reader engaged.
One question I have for Mehreen is where she feels she needs to improve as a writer/storyteller?
Less description, maybe to make it a bit faster and less "muddled"? Thank you Kent and thank you everyone participating in critiquing this book. I really have enjoyed your feedback and learn't from them too.
Next, you could try my stream of consciousness book, Moirae. A real reading challenge, or so I have been told.
I have been trying to goad some responses to the issue of literary aspects, since some claim it is literary historical fiction. I confess I had problems here, particularly with Malcolm's dreams, e.g. the snakes and the angel. I did not find the rest particularly religious, and the problem with going back in time to different characters is these sort of things are really irrelevant, in my view. Yes, they paint a picture of Malcolm, which made me think at first the book was about Malcolm, but it isn't really. I also think the longer sections at the beginning that were followed by going back in time did not really work for me, because they built to something that then turned out not really to be relevant to the main story. They see applied to descriptions that were too detailed, and really only applied if we realised this was the end of the story, not the beginning. Maybe that's me. So for me, the structure would have bene better if it had kept to a more normal time line, mainly because the characters were different. I thought once Mehreen got around to the real part of the book, everything picked up. The descriptions of life for the poor in early Australia showed that life was more than hard, and she showed the greed that comes with a bit of gold very well. I still wondered what the point of the first nugget was, though. Was it symbolic, bearing in mind its coming and going, and not doing very much. Overall, though, I thought it was well worth reading.
I also strongly encourage everyone who read it to leave a review on Amazon and GR. As an author, I know only too well how hard these can be to come by sometimes. So, do our fellow author a favour.
Thank you, Ian. And thanks for the invaluable feedback.It is a retrospective book which draws into the past. That's why it is so important to know where Malcolm and all this is coming from. The last Denouement ties it all up. Hence, the past events follows quite logically and is integral to the story.
The gold nugget is a sign of what's ahead. A lot can be read in its disappearance and appearance. All related to gold. Namely, the defeat of virtue and the victory of vice, a departure of one over the other, which also suggests the dramatic irony for the title, "The Pacifist." A clue hidden in the tiny nugget for the sharp mind.
Descriptions, whether the reader likes them or not, is their individual choice. However, in my view, they add richness to any story as opposed to skeletal configuration.
I just wanted to take a moment to thank
Mehreen Ahmed
for allowing us the privilege of hosting her novel as our book of the month read.
As Ian said, for those of you who read her book, I encourage you to leave a review. I will be doing just that within the next few weeks.
Ha, so the coming and going of the first nugget was symbolic of the departure of virtue and the coming of vice. I must admit I never thought of that, although equally I don't recall a lot of virtue prior to the first nugget. This is one of the dangers of symbolism - if it is sufficiently subtle, nobody sees it. Or do they? Now is the time for everyone else to put me down and say they saw that but never mentioned it :-) I picked the irony of the title, but I did wonder whether the title is the right place for that. On the other hand, it was a reasonably striking title, and quite a striking cover, so Mehreen, I wish you lots of luck with the sales.
And many thanks to Ian Miller for being an excellent discussion leader!
Many many thanks indeed! I would love to read your reviews too.Ian, a symbolic expression usually entails something standing for a concept. It doesn't have to have a history, necessarily. And dramatic irony is when everyone else but the character knows that something is ironical. The title is apt because the character started out to be a catalyst in Farmer Brown's life, finding his daughter, marrying her and overall changing the otherwise stagnant life of the good farmer. But along the line that "goodness" became frustrated when taken over by 'greed' which too was atoned subsequently. Therefore. The Pacifist has a two fold meaning, really. One has already been discussed the other:
It is an allegory. An allegory of life's battle between good and evil. I have named it The Pacifist, because Peter Baxter finally brings peace to his own conflict through his demise, the final closure.
Mehreen, I agree a symbol does not have to have a history, but it has to be recognisable as a symbol, and the meaning has to be tolerably discernible. But i wonder how many other authors put such things in their novels and nobody picks up on them?
Mehreen wrote: "I have named it The Pacifist, because Peter Baxter finally brings peace to his own conflict through his demise, the final closure. "That was my eventual conclusion on the title.
Thanks again, Mehreen and good luck!
Ian wrote: "Mehreen, I agree a symbol does not have to have a history, but it has to be recognisable as a symbol, and the meaning has to be tolerably discernible. But i wonder how many other authors put such t..."
A lot, I bet. A quick example I can think of is country-specific symbols that would be recognized only by people who have been to that country.
Thanks for leading the discussion, Ian!
No problem leading the discussion, Nik and Kent. I just hope it went well and it benefited Mehreen. :-)
Yes, when I think of the book, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, a character who was born 80 years of age with cataract spreading through his eyes, and then retrospectively becoming young and eventually dying as a baby. The book which defied all "norms" or even the laws of "Time", failed many a critic who called it mumbo, jumbo, particularly medical professionals. But I absolutely loved it. And thought that the book was suggestive of so many things ... subtleties that didn't fail me or was not nonsensical. That is the true essence of fiction, I think, one that captures the soul and fires up a debate anywhere around the world.
Whatever else you take from this, Mehreen, keep writing. Different people have different takes.
Alex wrote: "I just wanted to take a moment to thankMehreen Ahmed
for allowing us the privilege of hosting her novel as our book of the month read.
As Ian ..."
Thanks, Alex, for your perceptive take.
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