The History Book Club discussion
THE SECOND WORLD WAR
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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK EIGHT - MILITARY SERIES: HANNS AND RUDOLF - June 30th - July 6th - Chapter(s) Fourteen and Fifteen: 14: Hanns, Belsen, Germany, 1945 and 15: Hanns and Rudolf, Gottrupel and Belsen, Germany, 1946 - (203 - 239) - No Spoilers, Please
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion. Thought that I would add that.
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Chapter Fourteen - 14: Hanns, Belsen, Germany, 1945
By the end of 1945, the British War Office had realized that it was time to reinvigorate their war crimes team. They had overseen the Belsen trials and with their allies were embarking on the Nuremberg trials. But they knew that a lot of the war criminals were still on the run. They established a new War Crimes group in Bad Oeynhausen evicting the German citizens from their homes. Heading the War Crimes group was Anthony George Somerhough and he was assisted by Colonel Gerald Draper. 1 WCIT was now headed by Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Humphrey Tilling.
Hanns was dispatched to hunt down Gustav Simon. Their operation was to be called Operation Haystack and Simon was to be brought back alive. It appeared the Simon had other ideas.
Once again - Hanns is dangling Ann and now is giving her the silent treatment. Ann decides to take the matter into her own hands.
Chapter Fifteen - 15: Hanns and Rudolf, Gottrupel and Belsen
Rudolf's family suffered in the early months of 1946 and they did not have much money or basic supplies to live on.
In the meantime, the War Crimes Group decided to switch its strategy and track down the uncultured war criminals. So Hanns and Major Caola were off to Berlin.
He learned sadly that Oberst Meyer had died and most likely Great Aunt Cacilie Bing had perished at Auschwitz. They focused on two primary targets: Richard Glucks and Rudolf Hoss.
After despicable interrogation tactics and shocking treatment of Hoss's young children, Hanns was given the information he demanded.
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I think is really striking me are the meathods that Hans is using to track down war criminals. He seems to be very good at interrigations and reading people.
Indeed, Kathryn, he seems like a natural. He seemed to watch his bosses very closely as they interrogated people.
In these two chapters, we're finally seeing the foreshadowed questionable tactics of Hans. In chapter 14, the question was raised as to whether he actually was involved in the murder of captured suspect Gustav Simom or did Simon commit suicide as claimed. And in Chapter 15, his tactics towards Rudolf's family to inevitably find him could be called into question. In regards to Simon, it would seem unnecessary for him to have either turned a blind eye or participated in the murder of Simon unless there were concerns that justice wouldn't be served. He seemed quite diligent in accomplishing his mission that I have a hard time believing this was how it happened. And I feel the tactics used on Rudolf's family were also a bluff, but clearly a successful one. But was it the right thing to do?
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I really enjoyed the cat/mouse aspects of these chapters ... The hunted in turn became the hunter. Amazing, considering the outright brutality of what Allies discovered, that every German/Nazi wasn't shot on sight ... Immense constraint. Aside from the hunt for Hoess, other infamous Nazis were mentioned as part of Hanns' "resume", including Irma Grese and Ilsa Koch (the one who collected body parts and tattooed skin) ... How they made it to trial alive is hard to understand ... The rage must have been hard to control.Did any one ever feel any empathy for Hoess or his family at any point? Usually, I have pity on the weak/helpless/scared ... But not these people. Even now when I hear they've apprehended a 90 year old man who was a camp guard. I don't think of them as frail grandfatherly types, I visualize them as still being their vicious younger selves and have no mercy for them.
I found it interesting that Hedwig would not cave to tell Hanns where Rudolf was until she believed that they were shipping her son to Siberia, even knowing that they were interrogating him and the other children. Makes me wonder if Rudolf had threatened her if she gave his identity/location away or if she was just as hard in attitude as her husband. Hanns must have certainly believed she was bluffing to keep going until she finally caved.
Dachokie wrote: "Did any one ever feel any empathy for Hoess or his family at any point? Usually, I have pity on the weak/helpless/scared ..."Not for him so much, maybe for his family, but what kept going through my mind was the sheer devastation this war wrought...so many lives lost, so many displaced persons, so much physical destruction. What a waste.
Dachokie wrote: "I really enjoyed the cat/mouse aspects of these chapters ... The hunted in turn became the hunter. Amazing, considering the outright brutality of what Allies discovered, that every German/Nazi was..."I don't think the Allies had as much constraint as we tend to believe, especially the Russians. They certainly wanted to bring the "big wheels" of the Nazi hierarchy to trial but some of the smaller fish in that large pond were killed outright. The horrors that the allies saw and those who had those horrors visited upon them, didn't have much pity for any Nazi.
On page 209, Harding says that '(Hanns) was furious… he hated the idea that these young Nazis thought they could deceive him.' I think this tells us that the Nazi spirit was not gone, even in the presence of total destruction and that Hanns did not realize the extent the Nazi culture had infiltrated the mind set of the Austrio-German people at that time.
I also thought the scene with them carrying Simon's corpse strapped to the luggage rack was quite weird, and telling at the same time. Hanns anger must have been past the boiling point.
Teri & David - msgs 7 & 10I think that Hanns tactics with Hedwig were OK in a way - he already knew she had deceived him where she could previously and all knew that she had known what was going on.
The fact that she buckled to a threat of Siberia makes me think she might have known even more of how vicious the Germans were to the Russians.
I think Hanns' ability to hone himself as a detective was his contempt/hatred for the Nazis and his intelligence.
I think if we think back to the beginning of the book where Uncle Hanns is the uncle who makes jokes and tickles etc. we have a hidden glimpse here of how men can change for war or other radical situations and then often return to a "normal" life.
I am reading The Final Crucible
Lee Ballangerbecause I know a fellow who was in that battleground. He is a nice fellow and if you read what he went thru and his personal comments, used by the author, it is hard to believe that even 60 years later this experience is not more evident in his daily life. Although he is really good at hating war.
Just a passing comment is that this is the toughest "war book" I think I have ever read.
Here I note, for those of you who know the book, the Rape of Nanking
Iris Chang- this is not a "war book" with the - The Final Crucible is a story being that of the warriors.
One more comment on Simon and therefore LuxembourgI worked for 20 some years for the Luxembourgers - FYI the "common" lanuguage of Luxembourg is Luxembourgish which is a mix of German and French and when I was there regularly in the 1980s was not a written language. The legal language was French but German was also workable - one could use either in court. Most Luxembourgers were multilingual with French, German & English as a certain base. (I attribute the arriving dominance of English to Hollywood, the Marshall Plan, the Beatles and Microsoft Windows- just my little theory)
I was told some things. The soldiers of the Luxembourg army were obligated to serve with the German army in WWII after the Germans conquered them. The officers were not allowed to serve due to fears they could lead the Luxembourgers against the Germans.
There is an unknown solider in Luxembourg and I do believe that is from WWII not WWI.
The steel plants, of the outfit I worked for, were not destroyed during the war and the meter wide - wide flange beams they could make were used heavily by the Allies in bridge building & other projects as we moved east from Luxembourg/ Belgium towards Germany
These are things I was told.
I also struggled with Hanns' tactics, except if you're dealing with a Nazi, there may be no other way than to go harsh.
Great comments, Vince. It is impressive that most people know 2-3 languages.I can't image serving in a foreign army that conquered my country. Crazy.
Kressel wrote: "I also struggled with Hanns' tactics, except if you're dealing with a Nazi, there may be no other way than to go harsh."Hanns certainly used harsher methods to get Hedwig to disclose her husband's location.
You now get the sense the horrible aftermath of this war.
I think it can be jarring to our sensibilities and what we know about modern police procedure, etc, in west. But, as several people have mentioned here, we have to keep in mind that this was no ordinary police/criminal hunt. This was a war unit investigation tracking down war criminals would could be presumed to be armed and to fight back. They were acquiring and apprehending military targets as such. And Hanns' methods in particular do seem somewhat harsh, but I was actually impressed that he was able to keep his anger and rage for everything he had seen and experienced in check to make sure to deliver Rudolph alive. I think he realized that allowed to die, whether allowing his men to beat and kill him or by Rudolph poisoning himself, would not achieve whatever sense of justice or retribution he wanted. As Jill indicated earlier- only bringing in the larger quarry and letting the full light of the world shine upon these higher up criminals especially, would anyone really see what happened.
Bryan wrote: "Hanns certainly used harsher methods to get Hedwig to disclose her husband's location..."You can see why she gave in. The Nazis deported people's kids and worse all the time, so why should she think the Allies would be different? She probably also figured her husband would get caught eventually, whereas her son had his whole life ahead of him.
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Delivering someone alive but after having given the OK to have him beaten up is also not OK. Hanns should not be let off the hook so easily.
However, I understand everybody's feelings about the Nazis and the horrors that they were guilty of and nobody condones any of that either. Hedwig was rightly worried about these men.
When Hanns enters Berlin, he is again struck by how he cannot recognize the city because of the destruction. Then he returns to his old neighborhood and cannot find any evidence of the people that he knew. I cannot imagine how hard this first look would have been for him. Everyone he knew was missing.
I saw an interesting contrast between the way Hanns helped the little girl in an earlier chapter find her mother, yet now he is willing to interrogate Rudolf's daughter pretty harshly. I wonder if he thought of that difference.Going back to why people became Nazis, I think a lot of men (and probably women, too) who would have never been able to push others around saw an opportunity to rise in the Nazi ranks and thus unleash their inner brutality. Seems that a lot of the lower-ranking Nazi officials were just neighborhood bullies who would have had to skulk around in alleys, kicking small dogs and snarling at children, until they became "loyal" Nazis.
Tomi wrote: "I saw an interesting contrast between the way Hanns helped the little girl in an earlier chapter find her mother, yet now he is willing to interrogate Rudolf's daughter pretty harshly. I wonder if..."Some became Nazis because it was a way to succeed in this society.
Try The Good Man of Nanking about John Rabe the Nazi party member
John RabeIt is a book worth reading on it's own. I know of no other examples of Nazis living in Germany though
Could any of us, being in Hanns shoes, honestly say that we would have conducted ourselves any differently, or even committed worse actions under these circumstances? He has seen everything he has known reduced to nothing...as the author puts it, it was as if parts of the past were erased. I cannot even begin to imagine going through and seeing similar things.Considering that, I do not agree with his aggressive tactics, especially involving the children, but in many ways he still showed restraint...did going down the judge, jury, and executor road enter his mind? Is that where the conflicting report of Simon's demise reveals this part of Hanns psyche?
I do agree with Bentley though, in that Hanns should not be let off the hook. He is supposed to be representing civilized justice, but resorts to Nazi level tactics. Bad show.
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It must have been very difficult emotionally for Hanns.
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Tomi, excellent point. It is almost as if Hanns had a double standard similar to the one that Rudolf had.
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Not sure Cary - it is difficult. Hindsight is 20/20 - after the fact it is difficult to walk in their shoes especially after seeing the atrocities that they saw first hand. And if it happened to be "your people, your family and blood relatives" who were affected it would be that much harder. That is why folks who had these connections should not have been the breakers - it would be impossible for them to be impartial and not resort to corporal punishment right back. So many wonderful and talented individuals were killed indiscriminately - how would any family member feel any differently.
Hanns disappoints for sure but I really believe that the British placed these individuals in a no win situation emotionally. It must have been brutal for them.
Our police and law enforcement have difficult jobs and despite how despicable the individual or criminal - beating up the criminal because you do not like them or what they stand for or for just plain revenge is verboten and can result in the criminal going free or receiving a huge settlement. You only have to remember Rodney King. And Rudolf's face looked very similar to Rodney's.
But I think what happened to the children is what bothers me the most.
Some interesting moral dilemmas here to think about - how do you compare two wrongs. Who has the right to play God or judge or jury. I just know if my father, mother, son or daughter, brother or sister had been exterminated that I for one should not have been chosen to go after the perpetrators and bring them to justice.
Hanns does seem to be a natural at hunting down former Nazis. Some detective work and some hardcore tactics, he finds Simon and, eventually, Rudolf. Its interesting to see the different sides of Hanns in these two chapters. On the one hand you have the fun-loving party guy who helped the little girl find her mother and helped some women from Belsen get out of Germany. Then you have the side that hunted down these criminals and may have helped kill Simon and harshly interrogated Rudolf's family. Maybe his actions are why he didn't want to talk about his service in the war. On a side note, in chapter 14 is a photo section. I thought the picture of Rudolf's family was striking. Especially Klaus appearing to be less than excited. I wonder what he was thinking at that moment.
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Bentley wrote: "Tomi wrote: "I saw an interesting contrast between the way Hanns helped the little girl in an earlier chapter find her mother, yet now he is willing to interrogate Rudolf's daughter pretty harshly...."Just a small comment that helping a lost displaced girl to find her mother and get the basis of her life back is very very far from intimidating another girl, without having been separated for long time from her family, for a bit of time to find this criminal.
I think what Hanns did was acceptable here - he didn't hurt anyone - and it was important that the world would see what happened but I don't pretend to see the ultimate reasoning Hanns may have had at this so emotional time for him.
And to Bran - msg 30 - i would really doubt that he was embarrassed at his actions and didn't talk about the war - I have not met many who fought in wars or saw the gore that talk about it much. I had an uncle who did supplies in the quartermasters corp and he is the only guy I recall much talking about the war
Vince wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Tomi wrote: "I saw an interesting contrast between the way Hanns helped the little girl in an earlier chapter find her mother, yet now he is willing to interrogate Rudolf's daughter..."I don't think Hanns was embarrassed either. I think he did what he felt he had to do to capture these perpetrators and see to it they were punished. I was just thinking that Hanns possibly, in hind sight, didn't particularly like what he saw himself doing and just didn't feel the need to share it. We have all done things that we are not too proud of and relegated to the "not gonna talk about THAT" pile and put it out of mind.
Vince wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Tomi wrote: "I saw an interesting contrast between the way Hanns helped the little girl in an earlier chapter find her mother, yet now he is willing to interrogate Rudolf's daughter..."My father-in-law was in the 2nd wave at Omaha and has only very recently talked about his experiences. He says that he had promised not to talk about things he saw or did until a certain amount of time passed.
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Interesting thoughts Brian.
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I think you make a good point about walking in someone's shoes. But the interrogation and intimidation of the children and family - I have to disagree with politely. But these were different times.
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Yes Brian - what happens in Las Vegas - stays in Las Vegas.
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A lot of folks feel that way Tomi. Very true.
Someone in an earlier post mention "civilized justice" and it is something that we would hope happened during the rounding up of the Nazis. Unfortunately I think that concept was not as prevalent as we believe. The anger and disgust felt by the victors blunted the idea of "civilized justice". The children of Rudolf were made to suffer through interrogation because of who their father was while in other situations children of citizens were helped and nurtured. The Allies were willing to put aside "civilized justice" in their search for those responsible for the horrors that they saw.
Yes Jill, I agree. I don't agree necessarily with Hanns' methods, but I can't really put myself in his place either. On one hand I would want to someone to hunt them down to be an exemplar of civilized justice to be "better" than the Nazis, but on the other I am surprised at some of the restraint given what he saw and experienced. My thought is: would it have been worse if the War Crimes Units had enlisted a camp survivor rather than someone like Hanns?
He apparently knew he was done and had enough- did he stop because he had seen enough and wanted to move on (which is what I gather), or was there a part of him that was afraid of what would happen to his own humanity if he continued on? His statement about the Russians being better at it, which came years later, indicates some bitterness. But I don't know how I would be myself in his situation. My overall point really is, I try to understand him within the context of the time and what's going on, but I can't presume to know what I would do.
I hope to God that I nor my children never have to find out.
I don't believe Hanns felt there would be consequences to his actions (or lack of action in the case of Rudolf the prisoner). If he had thought there would be, I am not sure he would have been so easy to torture. After all, look at the Nazis. However, I am not sure I wouldn't have done the same thing.
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Sad but true Jill but you aptly articulated why this occurred. What had been done in the camps was too awful to bear or to comprehend.
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Yes John - you make some very good points. We do have to walk in the shoes of the people who lived during this time period and understand history with that in mind.
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G you are right - where were any repercussions for what they did. Most would have said during that time period - good they got what they deserved - but in retrospect - we can react differently and say that corporal punishment by the breakers should not have been allowed either.
Rage and disgust are very strong emotions and once the horrors of the Third Reich were seen, I wonder if we all might have acted similarly. Of course, it is impossible to say but it would have been hard to completely turn away from the beastly acts of the Nazis without a reaction that would normally be foreign to us.
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I was watching this newscast and it struck me that this is what revenge looks like - Israeli police this time taking things in their own hands and thinking that it is OK to beat up a kid because three other innocent Israeli Jewish boys (one who was also American) were killed by Hamas. Now that act was more horrible than anybody could have imagined - why kill three innocents. Why would Hamas or any splinter group think that this is OK?
But then you see it becomes a revenge situation where the community becomes incited and angry and then anything is possible - even more inhumane and evil acts like this one. Revenge is not the answer.
In case you missed this newscast - here you will see police officers who feel that many in the community will say - good - those people should get what they deserved and in fact other innocents are being killed and beat up as retribution. This is not right either. A vicious circle which only escalates. Revenge is very tempting - it leads folks to think they also now have a right to strike back.
American Teen Brutally Beaten by Israeli Police, Family Says
http://abcnews.go.com/International/a...
Note: Copy in glossary.
Sometimes people confuse "justice" and "revenge". It's a terrible thing.
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Jill wrote: "Sometimes people confuse "justice" and "revenge". It's a terrible thing."Agreed. The whole reason courts and prisons where invented. As Bentley pointed out with the current troubles in Israel, the Middle East will remain a mess until the people there decide justice is more important than revenge.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
THE GOOD MAN OF NANKING: The Diaries of John Rabe (other topics)The Final Crucible: U.S. Marines in Korea, Vol. 2: 1953 (other topics)
The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II (other topics)
Hanns and Rudolf: The True Story of the German Jew Who Tracked Down and Caught the Kommandant of Auschwitz (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
John Rabe (other topics)Lee Ballanger (other topics)
Iris Chang (other topics)
Thomas Harding (other topics)
For the week of June 30th - July 6th, we are reading Chapters Fourteen and Fifteen of Hanns and Rudolf..
The eighth week's reading assignment is:
Week Eight - June 30th - July 6th:
14: Hanns, Belsen, Germany, 1945 and 15: Hanns and Rudolf, Gottrupel and Belsen, Germany, 1946
(203 - 239)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on May 12th.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on June 30th.
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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
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Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Hanns and Rudolf - What Do I Do Next?
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