The History Book Club discussion
THE SECOND WORLD WAR
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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK SEVEN - MILITARY SERIES: HANNS AND RUDOLF - June 23rd - June 29th - Chapter(s) Twelve and Thirteen: 12: Hanns, Brussels, Belgium, 1945 and 13: Rudolf, Berlin, Germany, 1945 - (170 - 202) - No Spoilers, Please
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion. Thought that I would add that.
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Chapter Twelve - 12: Hanns, Brussels, Belgium, 1945
Lieutenant Hanns Alexander was supposed to arrive at the British Headquarters in Uccle, a Brussels suburb on May 8, 1945 which just happened to end up being Victory in Europe Day. It took him three days to actually get there and he was assigned to the Interpreters' Pool when he finally did arrive. He had never heard of Belsen which the British had liberated three weeks earlier. While driving through his once native country which he had not seen since 1936 - he was disoriented and shocked by the utter destruction. When he reached Belsen however, the effect upon Hanns was profound and he became filled with rage.
Hanns Alexander ended up being the interpreter for the new outfit called Number I War Crimes Investigation Team or I WCIT. Hanns became a "breaker". Back home the Alexander family was attempting to pick up the pieces of their lives after the war.
Chapter Thirteen - 13: Rudolf, Berlin, Germany, 1945
In April 1945, Rudolf and his colleagues realized that they could not win the war. His family had already fled and Rudolf planned to join them. Rudolf contemplated suicide.
After various identities - he was warned by his brother-in-law Fritz that he should have no direct contact with Hedwig or the children because they were being watched and that he Rudolf was in "grave danger".
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It takes three days for Hanns to make it to Uccle because he had arrived on Victory in Europe Day and there was a national celebration going in.
Hanns discovered probably due to the fact that he was a native speaking German that he had been assigned to the Interpreter's Pool, and that he was to help with the interrogation of SS officers who had been captured at a recently liberated concentration camp - Belsen. Hanns knew nothing of Belsen and it had just been liberated by the English three weeks ago so he had no idea what the adjutant was talking about when he said that the military police will want to give you an injection for typhoid. He was about to find out.
Discussion Questions:
What do you think Hanns was feeling when seeing his native country for the first time since 1936 - it had now been 9 years. And the destruction was disorientating and shocking. I wonder what all of us would feel if we left for 9 years and then came back and found everything we knew and loved had been destroyed. How would you have felt - putting yourself in Hanns' position?
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It had only been opened a few days. It had not been cleared yet. It had been closed so that Typhus would not run all over Germany. The SS guards were not longer there, but there were Hungarians who were not much better than the Nazis. Before it to interpreting it was a question of cleaning the camp out. Everybody did whatever they could. There were dead bodies washing about, dead bodies lying about, people who thought they were alive and they weren't. It was a terrible sight. Wheneverone went in and out of the camp we were sprayed with DDT.
Discussion Question:
What could possibly be Hanns" thinking right now? Do you think that you would have been able to handle this situation and be of assistance in cleaning up this horror?
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German military authorities established the Bergen-Belsen camp in 1940, in a location south of the small towns of Bergen and Belsen, about 11 miles north of Celle, Germany. Until 1943, Bergen-Belsen was exclusively a prisoner-of-war (POW) camp. In April 1943 the SS Economic-Administration Main Office (SS Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt; WVHA) which administered the concentration camp system, took over a portion of Bergen-Belsen and converted it first into a civilian residence camp and, later, into a concentration camp. Thus, while the German government placed the Bergen-Belsen camp complex within the concentration camp system, the WVHA initially gave it a special designation.
(Source: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.p...)
More on Belsen in the glossary
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The author wrote: "All the British soldiers were deeply disturbed by what they have found in Belsen. But Hann's reaction was different. The atrocity at Belsen had happened in the country of his birth; its victims were mostly Jews, his people with whom he shared a context and background. Their story could easily have been his. For Hanns, this was his home, and there would be no respite. It was as if Belsen had tripped a switch in him. No longer was he a carefree, selfish young man, He was gripped by a barely controllable rage. And he sensed a purpose."
Discussion Topics:
Elaborate upon the change in Hanns. What was he like before Belsen, and what was the author stating about his transformation? What can rage do to a person if he or she can barely control it? Did Hanns identify too much with the prisoners and was that healthy?
What did you think of the story of the nurse and the little girl and Hanns being of assistance? Did that show anything about his character?
Was Hanns able to control his rage before Belsen and the reader has to wonder if he was able to control it after? While reading the passage above what were your thoughts about Hanns in general and the man you have gotten to know so far?
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I think that it would be almost unbearable for Hanns to face the horrors of Belsen. As noted on pg 174, he was "gripped by a barely controllable rage". This was his country and yet it had visited unspeakable acts upon his people, the Jews. I understand his rage but I also noticed that the author didn't mention that he felt sorrow. But maybe rage is a stronger emotion than sorrow since I can't imagine that he wasn't extremely saddened by the situation.
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Sometimes rage or extreme anger follows sorrow - too much sorrow to bear so the psyche starts fighting back.
Bentley wrote: "On page 174 - we discover that Belsen has changed Hanns...What did you think of the story of the nurse and the little girl and Hanns being of assistance? Did that show anything about his character? ..."
I loved this story. After carrying hundreds of corpses to mass graves and helping to pray over them, here was the chance to help someone living. Some might say that this was just a small act and probably made no difference after the murder of 30% of the European Jews -- but it made all the difference to one little girl and her mother. And from them who knows how many people, and I imagine that it made a difference to Hanns and who he becomes.
Just imagine if everyone in Europe had helped just one person during the war. How many Jews could have been saved and how many families could have continued.
Beautiful story.
I can imagine that Hanns went through a series of emotions. Profound sadness, shock and eventually rage. I am sure that there were areas that he simply no longer recognized. I suspect that he felt the need to help the girl so that he at least felt like he could help someone. I think this showed that he really wanted to be able to help those he left behind, i.e. Germans/Jews in general. Maybe even that since he (along with the rest of this family) couldn't get his Aunt to leave that maybe he could help someone reunite with their family.
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What did you think of the story of the nurse and the little girl and Hanns being of assistance? Did that show anything ab..."
Very nice post Kathy. Beautiful sentiment.
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You may be right - he may have just felt numbness after that horrible task.
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What do we know about Hanns?
Throughout the book so far - we really did not get to know Hanns as well as we got to know Rudolf. We met Hanns as a young child but he was seen through his father's lens - Doctor Alexander. So we were able to compare the fathers of both Rudolf and Hanns - but not well because we really did not get an intimate look at Rudolf's father.
Now we have been let into the world of Hanns Alexander and in the last couple of chapters we have come to know a bit about his personality and his profile.
Let us try to piece together what we know about Hanns up to this point in the book so that we can add to that impression as we continue reading. Let us discuss both his strengths and his weaknesses and how he thinks as well as how you predict he might handle things yet to come.
I also wonder how this affects Hanns in a spiritual way?He was not a practicing Jew, and many Jews felt abandoned by God after the Holocaust. My first question was: did he feel closer to God by helping with the prayers of the dead? However, his rage seems to be propelling him forward, not a spiritual drive.
On p. 182 Mr. Harding writes "Hanns had by now developed two sides to his personality." I am not surprised that this young man, who tried to continue the secular aspects of his religion by joining groups (see p. 78) to find reasons for the anti semitism in Germany, and who then tried to fit in in England, would continue a superficial charm even while he seethed as he interviewed people like Elisabeth Volkenrath. There is such a thing as secular religion - people who believe in a faith, but for various reasons usually pertaining to their environment, do not overtly demonstrate it. I think Hanns fell into this category at this point in his life. I am just amazed he kept his anger in check as well as he did.
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He was not a practicing Jew, and many Jews felt abandoned by God after the Holocaust. My first question was: did he feel closer to God by ..."
Great insight Bryan - I wondered at that as well - how does his prayer and spiritual beliefs position themselves with hate or rage. Loss is a funny thing - it can eat away at you and you end up losing more in the process.
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You make a good point G - he was able to function and still function very, very well.
I used to show my classes a documentary called "Memory of the Camps" which I believe was filmed by the British when they cleaned up Bergen-Belsen. It shows the piles of bodies and the dead being tossed into huge pits. The film always had a sobering impact on my students. Now knowing that Hanns was there makes it even more horrifying.
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Update: Just checked it out - it was televised by PBS - on the show called Frontline.
Here is the link on amazon (not in goodreads)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000...
It appears to be available on Netflix but only on DVD not streaming. Not available on Amazon Prime.
Found it on PBS - you can watch it online but be forewarned - there are warnings about the graphic details - so if you get upset easily or you are underage - you should not watch or get permission from a parent or legal guardian.
Here is the link:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontli...
As the film's history shows, it was a project that was supervised by the British Ministry of Information and the American Office of War Information. And during that summer of 1945 some of the documentary editing was done under the direction of Alfred Hitchcock.
"At the time we found the film, it was not entirely clear what role Hitchcock played in its development," says David Fanning, executive producer of FRONTLINE. "Moreover, one reel of the original six, shot by the Russians, was missing. There was a typed script intact -- undated and unsigned -- but it had never been recorded."
FRONTLINE took the film, added the script and asked the late British actor, Trevor Howard, to record it. The aim was to present the film unedited, as close as possible to what the producers intended in 1945.
"Memory of the Camps" includes scenes from Dachau, Buchenwald, Belsen and other Nazi concentration camps whose names are not as well known. Some of the horrors documented took place literally moments before the Allied troops arrived, as the Germans hurried to cover the evidence of what they had done.
Twenty years after its first broadcast on FRONTLINE, "Memory of the Camps" remains one of the most definitive and unforgettable records of the 20th century's darkest hour.
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Eleven million people died in these death camps and 6 million of them were Jewish people.
Will add the above to the glossary - which is where this should be placed.
Link to glossary - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Teri has indicated where the other segments are which with my sad eyes - I did not see:
Here is what she stated. And thank you for both - the info and getting back to the book. (smile)
Above and to the left of the video clip are 4 links for the four parts of the film in it's entirety. :-) Back to the book...
There were some happy endings to all of the horrors that were shown - some survived and saw themselves in the footage:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontli...
It is one of the best I have ever seen, because it is so simple. It lets the images speak for themselves. Very powerful.
Bentley wrote: "Yes it must have been terrible for him and a travesty for all of the victims. I am not familiar with that documentary.Update: Just checked it out - it was televised by PBS - on the show called F..."
It appears to be available online at the PBS Frontline website.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontli...
Teri wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Yes it must have been terrible for him and a travesty for all of the victims. I am not familiar with that documentary.Update: Just checked it out - it was televised by PBS - on t..."
Thanks Teri.
The one I had in class took almost the entire 50 minutes of class, and I never showed the entire video.
Bentley wrote: "Discussion Topic:What do we know about Hanns?
Throughout the book so far - we really did not get to know Hanns as well as we got to know Rudolf. We met Hanns as a young child but he was seen th..."
I think that, for the most part, Hanns had not grown up until his family fled Germany. But his reaction at Belsen focused him. The anger and dismay he felt upon seeing the horrors perpetrated on his people by his own countrymen motivated him to action. He wanted to make a difference, to help the victims and punish those that committed these crimes.
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If you check message 23, you will find other sources for the film if you are so inclined. The glossary for this book - here is the link will give you added information. But let us get back to the discussion. Tomi, you are correct - this is only an excerpt.
Glossary:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I provided in message 23 - a link to Amazon and you can also acquire it from Netflix as a DVD if you are full fledged Netflix customer.
Back to our discussion of the book.
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What do we know about Hanns?
Throughout the book so far - we really did not get to know Hanns as well as we got to know Rudolf. We met Hanns as a young child bu..."
I think you are correct Brian S - he really was in a cocoon while he was in Germany and then had to grow up fast. It must have been difficult for his entire family.
I think you are absolutely spot on about his motivation - but I guess we have to read and discover where that motivation takes him.
Bentley wrote: "All, what was on PBS was only a clip or a segment - I watched it and it was horrendous (I am talking about what you are shown) - the clip was quite enough for me. Sad, sad, beyond sad. If you c..."
Above and to the left of the video clip are 4 links for the four parts of the film in it's entirety. :-) Back to the book...
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I was really glad to finally see more of Hanns and his story as related to the subject of the book. As Bentley mentioned, we really hadn't gotten to know him as well before now with the primary focus being on Rudolf. This is clearly going to be a very personal search for him.
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In the last reading, we were asked about Hanns' treatment of Ann...from this week's reading, I get the feeling that she is being kind of pushy about getting married. Hanns mentions that he told her not to get involved with a guy "like him." I wonder just what he meant by that...what did he see in himself that wasn't "marriage material"?
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I think he might have meant that he was having problems with commitment or at the time did not want to get tied down for a variety of reasons.
Maybe he felt that he and his family had lost their stature that they had in Germany - that he was a man with a family and both were without a country (so to speak) - since he had not gotten citizenship in England (as yet) while at the same time in the country of his birth - he and his family had found their citizenship basically revoked/cancelled.
That would make me feel like a man without a country. How could I get married until at least I had that nailed down.
He obviously liked her or he would not be carrying her picture in his pocket but then again - I think she felt like a familiar face, a friend, a compatriot who happened to be a woman companion. He hadn't seen a great deal of her either - of course it was World War II.
I think that if she hadn't pressured all of his contacts (including his brother and other family members) that this relationship could simply have stopped or started up again after the war when Hanns was either more mature, less commitment phobic, more sure of his destiny and future and more established or even sure that he wanted to marry Ann.
I think his brother should have kept his nose out of it and if I were Hanns I would have told him to butt out of his personal affairs or marry her himself (smile).
I would have not had any patience with such interference or meddling. But then again Hanns seemed to go with the flow.
Someone in an earlier post mentioned that Hanns was growing up. By this time, I think he knew what he wanted to do. The outrage of the camps took his soul and transformed it, but because he was at heart a kind person he could not just say to Ann, I've got stuff to do now, can't this wait?
I am appreciating how the author has shown us Hanns growth to a determined purposeful person and Rudolf's descent from arrogance to a weak willed former bully.
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G I agree - he wanted to let her down easily. Maybe even to think about his next decisions and even to get over the outrage of the camps themselves. Goodness, some folks must have gone mad.
I do think that she should have had some pride and left him some breathing room. Didn't she wonder if he would have married her only to please his family and get them off his back. That is not too flattering.
But I think you are spot on with your assessment.
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Yes, as of this point in the book, Hanns appears to be ascending while Rudolf Hoess seems to have hit a new low. Another good comment G.
Thanks, Bentley. I wasn't sure at first, but Mr. Harding has given us a trajectory for these two people. I wonder if Rudolf actually knew that Himmler took the cyanide pill and if he did know, was he in the least tempted to take his or did he have the hubris to believe he could get away with it.
At this point, I think that Rudolf would not have had to courage to commit suicide and had he probably convinced himself that he could dodge responsibility and possibly be jailed for a short time or overlooked as a "small fish in a large pond". The personalty of Rudolf is hard to pin down but as G noted in post #39, he had become a weak willed bully. That leads me to believe that he felt he just might get a free pass despite his crimes.
I feel we got to know more about Rudolph simply because of his ascension to commandant of Auschwitz ... a prominent position in the Nazi system. Hanns, for the most part, was simply one of millions fleeing from the oppressive Nazis and one of the millions who joined the fight against them. It wasn't until later that Hanns separated himself from being "just another soldier". Up to that point, the older Rudolph had been involved in two World Wars, formed a large family and had risen to prominence in Germany ... Rudolph simply had lived/experienced more of life which I felt offered more to the story.
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Also there are other photos where you can clearly see the fear in Hoess's face with a person (possibly Draper or Clarke) standing over him nose to nose.
So I have to ask myself why was Hoess's face bloodied? And who were the folks responsible for it. As the book continues we will learn more about these circumstances and then we can periodically re-evaluate our positions on both men as we learn more.
Hoess after his capture. Photo by Yad Vashem Archive
Hoess with Draper
We have already seen these photos above.
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Jill, I do not think he was going to get a free pass by then - because remember - when they picked him up - the bloodied face did not just materialize from internal stress. But I imagine he may have either been tortured or his family threatened - (he lied about Hedwig knowing to protect her and his family) - the rest we will never fathom.
I think we need to read on to make up our minds.
As far as a cyanide capsule G - I think he wanted to live - others when their world imploded - were content to die.
The horrors of Auschwitz that he was responsible for boggle my mind - but when watching Auschwitz: The Nazis and the 'Final Solution - hard as it is to believe - former SS guards were interviewed and they honestly were unrepentant about their roles and some stated unequivocally their feelings then were the same as they have now - even if those feelings are unjust - they stated this to the camera and to the interviewer without flinching and without showing any hate or any distortion in their countenance. That was chilling to me.
And it made me feel and understand this book better - these were not the criminally insane doing these deeds but normal men who went home at night and loved and were loved by their families while other families died because of them and others.
I have been very moved by what happened to all of the people killed needlessly at these camps. There should be a constant reminder of these acts so that maybe it will be a deterrent to future deeds - although there is genocide going on in parts of the world as we speak. How or why baffles me. Or why these folks do not feel something when they killed - for their victims or for their families. This was a very bad time in history.
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I agree Dachokie - Rudolf's life and path were well worn by the time Hanns strikes out. I think the character development in the book (even though it is non fiction) - was not detailed enough to this point about Hanns' inner self for us to determine what is going on with him, what kind of man he will become, what are his dreams and aspirations, what does he want with his life and what matters most to him, does he have any boundaries - what are they, and what is he willing to do or how far would he go if pushed or what does he feel?
Until now in the book - we could not get our arms around some of the answers to these questions. But Hanns is still evolving while Hoess's destiny is coming to an end.
Bentley wrote: "...These were not the criminally insane doing these deeds but normal men who went home at night and loved and were loved by their families while other families died because of them and others ..."Very chilling.
Bentley wrote: "Jill wrote: "At this point, I think that Rudolf would not have had to courage to commit suicide and had he probably convinced himself that he could dodge responsibility and possibly be jailed for ..."I am going to have to watch this, even though I know it will be painful.
I think Hanns is struggling, and I hate to think he fell into the trap of abusing the abusers. But I have not finished the book.
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I do not know that he did but we will have to find out.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Hanns and Rudolf: The True Story of the German Jew Who Tracked Down and Caught the Kommandant of Auschwitz (other topics)Authors mentioned in this topic
Simon Wiesenthal (other topics)Thomas Harding (other topics)
For the week of June 23rd - June 29th, we are reading Chapters Twelve and Thirteen of Hanns and Rudolf..
The seventh week's reading assignment is:
Week Seven - June 23rd - June 29th
12: Hanns, Brussels, Belgium, 1945 and 13: Rudolf, Berlin, Germany, 1945
(170 - 202)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on May 12th.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on June 23rd.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Jerome, Kathy and Libby.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
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Notes:
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Introduction Thread:
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Table of Contents and Syllabus
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Q&A with Thomas Harding (the author):
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Glossary
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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
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Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Hanns and Rudolf - What Do I Do Next?
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