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Berlin Alexanderplatz, by Alfred Doblin
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I'm moving this thread to the Book Club Discussion thread, where it will remain until the next book. Afterwards it will move back to the General Discussion thread for future reference and future discussion.
You don't have to wait until the readalong officially starts to post here. If you have preliminary thoughts -- excited, nervous, etc. -- please feel free to share.
If you like film, the great Rainer Werner Fassbinder made this into a long (15 hour) television series. The DVD is available from The Criterion Collection in the U.S., and they announced not long ago that they will be releasing it on Blu-ray on February 12 (see here).
Unfortunately my library system does not have a copy of the Hoffman translation. I'm hoping to get it (it's not available at the moment) and read along anyway, but if that translation is 75 years old, I hope it isn't too self-censored.
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I am going to cheat and read the old translation:
(IF I even attempt such a whale. But it IS on my TBR pile).
We can talk about the book, and the author, all we want, but WITHOUT any spoilers please as most of us will still be reading it through the month of January. But on February 1st we will begin the discussion of the whole book, spoilers and all.
Has anyone seen the 15 hour television series?
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Christopher wrote: "I am going to cheat and read the old translation:(IF I even attempt such a whale. But it IS on my TBR pile)."
I've also had a copy of the 'old' translation by Eugene Jolas for quite some while, but haven't gotten to it yet and did a cursory two page comparison with the new Hoffman translation ... and must say I preferred the Jolas (hope that isn't sacrilegious!).
Doug wrote: "did a cursory two page comparison with the new Hoffman translation ... and must say I preferred the Jolas (hope that isn't sacrilegious!). ..."The older I get, the less 'snowable' I am on the wonderfulness of new translations.
I shamefully bought the Second Sight dvd of the series 6 years ago but haven't watched it yet. I bought the book 6 months ago so at least that is an improvement!
I read somewhere that for a long time this book was considered "impossible" to translate because of the period slang and local dialect. I couldn't find where I read that though and while looking for it I came upon this:The novel was translated into English in 1931 by Eugene Jolas, a friend of James Joyce. The translation was not well received; in particular it was criticized for the way in which it rendered everyday working-class speech. A 2018 English translation by Michael Hofmann, published by New York Review Books, was given a starred review from Kirkus Reviews, which called it "vigorous and fresh" and a "welcome refurbishing of a masterpiece of literary modernism". According to Oliver Kamm, "Dialogue is the most difficult thing to get right in translation" which Hofmann has rendered "in cockney dialect". It reads fluently, even at the risk of being possibly obscure to a non-British audience".
I’m so excited for this. I ordered mine from Book Depository; fingers crossed it doesn’t take too long to reach me. I didn’t know about the television series, but will definitely check it out :)
It takes at least two weeks for Book Depo books to make it to Ohio. You have 6 week, sisilia, hopefully that is enough time.I ordered the book with idea what it was, I’m excited to read it now that I’ve read the summary,
Ha, I found where I read that Berlin Alexanderplatz was untranslatable and it is actually The New York Review of Books that said it when reviewing the DVD collection back in 2008.https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2008...
It has had that reputation for decades, ever since the Jolas translation was published.
Do we have any German speaking members here? It would be interesting to hear their opinion on the translation. I speak/read in French so I like to compare French translations to the real thing when I can. Although my last name is German I don't speak a single word of it :-(
I have the Jolas translation as well, but I'm French and could compare with the French text from time to time, for difficult passages. I actually read German, but if it's a very difficult text, I may not be very useful..This is actually my very first time here for a read-along with you. So, how does it work? Are we assigned a certain number of chapters every week?
Welcome Emma. When the book discussion starts on Feb. 1st, we will talk about the entire book. I will try to post some questions to encourage participation. For this time only, since we are only just getting re-started with the book club we are giving ourselves the month of January to read the book. We can still talk about it in January but only in general terms. No spoilers.After that we will most likely nominate and vote for a new book each month, that book will be announced 6 weeks ahead of time to give everyone a chance to get the book and read it and when discussion starts on the 1st of the month we can talk about anything in the book.
I received my copy today and can't wait to get started (I sneak peeked the first couple of pages) but I have to finish the book I'm reading now first. Thankfully I have the next 5 days off work.
I got my copy the other day! I have a couple to finish then I’ll start it.
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That bodes well. I want to read Le Petit Prince tonight (I have yet to read it and it seems like the kind of book I need right now). Then I plan on starting Berlin Alexanderplatz on Friday when I should finally be done with my year-long project of reading the entire 7-volume Proust a la Recherche Du Temps Perdu.
Good fork you, Louise! All 7 volumes, that’s an accomplishment. Did you enjoy them?I’m reading A Far Cry from Kensington the next few days for Mookse Madness (and it’s a quick read to bring my book total to 54 for the year,) then I’m eager to start Berlin Alexanderplatz. This afternoon I heard Eileen Battersby praise it as an outstanding book in an interview from last year.
WndyJW wrote: "Good fork you, Louise! All 7 volumes, that’s an accomplishment. Did you enjoy them?..."Yes but I'll be glad to be done. 20 pages left!
Saving it for tomorrow. I already read 20 pages today. Proust is not someone you can read for any length of time. 10-20 pages is all I can handle at a time.
WndyJW wrote: "Good fork you, Louise! All 7 volumes, that’s an accomplishment. Did you enjoy them?I’m reading A Far Cry from Kensington the next few days for Mookse Madness (and it’s a quick read t..."
Tragically Eileen Battersby died in a car crash a few days ago. She was a fine reviewer and a great advocate for literature in translation.
That is sad, it was because of that tragedy that I was listening to the interview.Today Amos Oz died, too.
Today we start our "general" discussion of Berlin Alexanderplatz and Alfred Doblin. Most of us are still reading (or haven't started yet) so no spoilers please, not in January. For now it's just in general terms. In February we'll get to the nitty gritty.For now, here is a little bit about the author:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_...
If you want to see a picture of Berlin's Alexanderplatz in 1919, one is included in this 100 German Must-Reads article:https://www.dw.com/en/alfred-d%C3%B6b...
Here is also an article on the real place:
https://www.tripsavvy.com/berlin-alex...
Now I feel foolish, I did not know Alexanderplatz was a place! I didn’t know what it meant. Now I’m more excited to read this book and I want to find the other 9 German books that guy talked about. I bet The Tin Drum is one of them and The Magic Mountain.
WndyJW wrote: "Now I feel foolish, I did not know Alexanderplatz was a place! I didn’t know what it meant. Now I’m more excited to read this book and I want to find the other 9 German books that guy talked about...."You are not alone :)
Maybe because my ancestry is German, I've read a fair amount from this list. Jenny Erpenbeck's Visitation is on the list but her Go, Went, Gone is Berlin-centric and most contemporary. It's about a retired professor who finds himself becoming involved with recent immigrants in the new (since the fall of the wall) Berlin. Alexanderplatz is a story location.
Is Alexanderplatz where the East Germans built a Fernsehturn (TV tower) which, quite embarrassingly for them, reflected a huge cross when the sun shone?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernseh...
Yes. It, and some history of the square, is covered in the early pages of the book I suggested.
No spoilers, but it has taken me 3 days to read 23 pages. I just haven’t found a door into this book yet. I will stick with it because every review says it is brilliant. I have to get use to the style I think. I love the setting-Berlin in the interregnum between the wars is a fascinating time to me; how did cosmopolitan countries, proud of their modernity descend into the hell of the Holocaust? I love character driven books, so I should like this book. I’m sure I’ll get in a groove with it soon.
At page 48, I'm struggling too. I've read several books set in Germany, pre-, during, and post-wars. This is not like any of them.
I'm reading a few pages a day. I enjoy the style very much. I was a bit concerned when I saw it compared to Ulysses. It does indeed feel a bit like it at the beginning, though much easier to follow than James Joyce. Nice surprise for the style. I enjoy books that are "different"
I don't want to call comparisons to Ulysses a 'false flag,' but wasn't Manhattan Transfer a much more direct inspiration?
Randolph, I didn’t want to bring politics to our book world, but I heartily agree with you, I live in the US. I like experimental fiction, but I haven’t read enough of this yet to get a feel for it. I am no where near ready to give up.
I thought the first few pages were the easiest to read, and then it gets very messy and kind of difficult to engage — not incomprehensible, just not particularly engaging either.I love Joyce, so that’s an encouraging comparison for me; though it seems the translator also disagrees with that comparison and finds it unhelpful (I’ve read the Afterword by Hofmann.)
The one common trait I’ve noticed is in making the city itself sort of like a character — by depicting all the sounds and sights and noises and artifacts and actions and songs and mini side stories and movements and diverse set of characters in it. Which is more modernist / collage than uniquely Joyce, I think.
I had no trouble following the conversations, I just don’t know why the Jewish man brought our protagonist to another man’s house and engaged with him like he did. Even if this book turns out not to be my cup of tea, I’ll hang around and wait for March. I’m still excited about this group.
About 60 pages in, I am finding Franz very difficult to like or sympathize with. Partially for this reason, I find that I am particularly glad for the snapshots in which he plays no part. I have read other works written and/or set in this time period in Germany which I have enjoyed very much. I am sticking with the book, and think that I may end up enjoying it overall, but I doubt that I will end up appreciating the protagonist himself very much.
I don't like Franz or the style of this novel. I enjoy a challenging book, actually the challenge is what is keeping me reading, I just wish I didnt have 400 pgs of this ahead of me. Its going to take me longer than it should to read because I'm not eager to pick it up again.Randolph, I have to consider this for a minute, but my first reaction is that I agree with you. Franz is a palate, the rough neighborhoods of Berlin and the cast of one dimensional characters are drawn in relation to Franz. It's very experimental: changes of point of view, changes of interior/exterior monologue mid sentence, thrusting characters into a scene with no introduction or background or reason, reality and delusions in one stream of thought. I do enjoy that type of novel, but I don't know if it will hold me attention all the way to the end of the book.
I saw last night that The Grand Hotel by Vicky Baum (I cant link to the book on my phone) is also Berlin in the Weimar Republic. If I give up on this I'll read that.
Randolph wrote: "Okay, maybe I’m getting too deep here but it seems to me like the Alexanderplatz is the character and Franz Biberkopf is actually the setting. Does anyone else see it like this or am I just nuts? D..."I don't think you're nuts. It's an interesting concept. I am only 30 pages in (and am struggling too) but I will keep your hypothesis under consideration as I read more.
Jeff wrote: "About 60 pages in, I am finding Franz very difficult to like or sympathize with.."I'm not as far in as you yet, but I am going to guess that we are not suppose to like him, which begs the question "do we need to like the protagonist to enjoy a book?". I personally like a character I can root far, with flaws and all. I'm not sure how I feel about Franz yet.
I’m only 2 chapters in, the second chapter is clearly more about the city than Franz.I think I disagree about Franz as setting: a character is an agent that moves through space and time and experiences things; a setting is that which encompasses the agent. I know I also raised the metaphor of Alexanderplatz as “a character,” but I’m not prepared to go so far as to say that one person in it is the setting.
Clearly the city is central and way more important than Franz or anyone in it. I can easily imagine Alexanderplatz, the city, without Franz in it; I cannot, however, imagine Franz (and the other characters) without the city. The totality of the fragments made the city; none of the fragments seem weighty enough to encompass it.
It reminds me of T.S. Eliot’s Waste Land — he might call Tiresias “the most important personage”, but Tiresias is still a very minor, peripheral character among other equally minor characters, some of these characters are only hinted at, or absent even, to highlight what’s left: the ruin. So they are like devices that “frame” the environment, that make the city “come alive,” but the environment is still the setting that unifies all these fragments, these one-dimensional characters with mini plots.
Randolph wrote: "As such the author’s intention is not necessarily for us to sympathize or like any of the characters..."Quite true, and I have read many fine novels with protagonists that I did not like (in the way that I like a person in real life). However, I liked them as protagonists. They served the story that the author was trying to tell. For instance, I did not like Bill Lee (as a person), in Naked Lunch, but I liked him as a protagonist. He served the story that Burroughs wanted to tell.
On the other hand, on rare occasions I encounter a protagonist who is so central to the story, and who I find so unpleasant, that I cannot finish the book, even if the protagonist is serving the story. The most upsetting example of this for me is Confederacy of Dunces, since this book was given to me as a gift from a dear friend from New Orleans who loves it. I want to love it for her sake, but I have made a couple of attempts in the 20 years it has been in my possession, and so far, no go.
Slightly more common, though, is an unpleasant protagonist who is not necessary for the story. When I encounter that, I feel no remorse about not finishing the book, if I find nothing else to commend it to me.
No spoilers, but there are a couple of things about Franz that are revealed early on which I find particularly repellent. I have trouble seeing how they will be necessary for the story, but I will wait and see. Even if Franz is not redeemed (in my eyes) as a protagonist, I may still end up liking the book, as it seems like it has the potential to be a rich and interesting portrait of a time and place.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and my mind open.
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Publication Date: March 6, 2018
Pages: 502
Introduction by Michael Hofmann
Translated from the German by Michael Hofmann
Originally published in 1929
Franz Biberkopf, pimp and petty thief, has just finished serving a term in prison for murdering his girlfriend. He's on his own in Weimar Berlin with its lousy economy and frontier morality, but Franz is determined to turn over new leaf, get ahead, make an honest man of himself, and so on and so forth. He hawks papers, chases girls, needs and bleeds money, gets mixed up in spite of himself in various criminal and political schemes, and when he tries to back out of them, it's at the cost of an arm. This is only the beginning of our modern everyman's multiplying misfortunes, but though Franz is more dupe than hustler, in the end, well, persistence is rewarded and things might be said to work out. Just like in a novel. Lucky Franz.
Berlin, Alexanderplatz is one of great twentieth-century novels. Taking off from the work of Dos Passos and Joyce, Doblin depicts modern life in all its shocking violence, corruption, splendor, and horror. Michael Hofmann, celebrated for his translations of Joseph Roth and Franz Kafka, has prepared a new version, the first in over 75 years, in which Doblin's sublime and scurrilous masterpiece comes alive in English as never before.