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Berlin Alexanderplatz, by Alfred Doblin
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I commend you Merilee on reading books in languages that are not fluent for you. I am fluent in French but still find reading in French more difficult than in English because I "think" in English. So French requires more concentration. I can't imagine trying to read something I am not fluent in.
I definitely see this as a book I'd like to re-read someday. (Sorry I've not been able to take part much in the conversation--I just got back from vacation today)I think in a book like this, I'm trying to take in so much at one time that I miss a lot of important passages. I checked the book out of the library to read it, and have since turned it back in, so I can't reference too many things specifically, but I did happen to notice that early on in the book there was a short piece I assumed was a vignette about a young girl in the process of becoming a street walker. Only after finishing the book did I figure out that this was the girl Franz takes up with at the end of the book (I can't think of her name at the moment) and who was murdered.
So I think a re-read would really open the book up by freeing me from reading for what's going to happen next and allowing me to focus on the details
Louise wrote: "I commend you Merilee on reading books in languages that are not fluent for you. I am fluent in French but still find reading in French more difficult than in English because I "think" in English. ..."I certainly read faster in English than in French, and quite a bit more slowly in German and Italian. The bit of Alexanderplatz I’ve peeked at auf deutsch doesn’t look all that onerous (though I know I won’t read the whole thing in German- life’s too short🙀) Karen M., will you be joining us and, if so, will you read it in the original?
Yes, I agree on the reread, and even glancing back over the last couple of days, I find that it seems more complex, and yet somehow easier to grasp than I did the first time through. Not to get too academic about all this, but I came across an interesting article talking about how Greek tragedy may have influenced this book. I found it because I happened to have just read The Odyssey for an offline book group, and remembered that Joyce to some degree patterned Ulysses after that work and wondered if Doblin had too. He is clearly versed in it, as he makes a reference to a scene of Menelaus and Helen in this work, as well as the above mentioned Agamemnon and Clytemnestra , I can only post a link to the first page of the article, as I don't have full access to JSTOR, but I thought even this was interesting as it talks about Franz's three reversals of fortune triggered by his lack of insight into human nature, and that there is a shift from a romantic belief in fate to a modern awareness of reality.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/405986?s...
You're welcome, Emma! I'm happy if anyone finds it of interest.
Liz M wrote: "Janet wrote: "in Hoffmann's Afterword, he references the retelling of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra -- can someone tell me where that retelling is? Must have missed that...."Using amazon's search in..."
Thanks, Liz. Just re-read the passage. Can't say that I quite follow the connection between Agamemnon's story and Franz's.
In answer to the question of re-reading BA, yes, I do think I'd like to re-read it., some day. There was so much to take in on the initial read, I found it hard to pull back to analyze what was going on. I think a second reading would help.
Good to know. I love the care that Criterion takes in remastering art films. My public library now offers Kanopy, which freely streams films including some Criterion classics, but not this Fassbinder, yet.
Thanks for that library connection idea, Janet. And thanks, Randolph, for the news about the Criterion work on this.
Pretend you’re another famous author writing a blurb for the cover. What would you say?
I keep meaning to recommend another NYRB book to readers of this book, whether they liked it or finished it or not. It's Berlin Diaries by Robert Walser. We read it here some time ago, but some people may not have been here at that time. I don't know if NYRB still has rights, but it's wroth checking out in any case.
Hi, Seana. Is it Berlin Stories? I see that it is available, at least on Book Depository.I don't know this one, but I've read and enjoyed other works by Walser (and years ago saw an odd and interesting movie, Institute Benjamenta, based on his Jakob von Gunten).
I've got a copy but haven't read it yet. Hmmm, maybe I will nominate it next time around. It is available from NYRB directly and Amazon.A LETTER FROM SUSAN BERNOFSKY, TRANSLATOR OF ROBERT WALSER’S BERLIN STORIES: https://www.nyrb.com/blogs/nyrb-news/...
Speaking of short stories, has anyone read any of Doblin's short stories? NYRB does have his collection Bright Magic: Stories. Another one of my unread books.....
Is anyone else reading the Hoffman translation? I find the British cockney slang a little bit off-putting in the German context.
Yes, Jeff, it is, as I guess Louise already answered. I think you would enjoy them. I should make clear that they aren't fictional stories, but columns he wrote--the correct word for them is feuilletons. We did discuss them here early on--here's the link for anyone interested:https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Merilee, yes, I read the Hoffman translation, and I know what you mean about the Cockney, but at least I did get the impression that Doblin was writing a different dialect and class there.
Seana, I’m sure he’s aiming at class, and an American translator might have something like a Brooklyn accent, but it still seems somewhat incongruous. Not sure how you can get around it, though. The original German does have a lot of dialect (zwo for zwei, for example). My partner has the other translation, which I need to take a look at.
I read the Jolas translation and didn't have any problem with it as the slang didn't seem to be from any specific region. I think the translator does have to pick a similar region's dialect but it's best to smooth it out a bit. I'm surprised Hoffman didn't go for a more Brooklyn accent as we're all familiar with it from movies and it's more familiar to the larger US market.
I’ll have to take a look at the Jolas. It’s not that I’m unfamiliar at all with the Britishisms, from books and movies and TV shows, and I quite enjoy them in those contexts. I guess It’s just that the book is so German and these locutions seem so incongruous. Are there any Brits out there who might have an opinion about this?
I’ve decided to move over to the Jolas starting with Fourth Book. It’s like a breath of fresh air😀
I think reading the Jolas would be very instructive, though I doubt I'll get to it any time soon. I did like Hoffman's thoughts about translation in the afterword, though. He speaks to the inevitable inadequacy of the attempt. Which doesn't mean it isn't worth it. I am grateful for even not so good translations, monoglot that I am.
I've been surprised how little sounds actively British. From reviews, I'd been expecting the Berliners to be talking as if they were in Only Fools and Horses, but no such thing. A lot of the Britishness must be in the sort of subtleties that 4are most apparent to a non-Brit.
Things like “nuffink” for nothing are sprinkled throughout. I am greatly preferring the Jolas, although the print is smaller (and greyer). The idioms in the Hoffman also sound much more modern than appropriate for the 1930s.
Merilee wrote: "Things like “nuffink” for nothing are sprinkled throughout. I am greatly preferring the Jolas, although the print is smaller (and greyer). The idioms in the Hoffman also sound much more modern than...""nuffink" was one that really stood out to me as most of what's around it seems like standard English. I remember highlighting it because here was actually some of that Cockney reviews had mentioned, and there didn't at that point seem to be a lot otherwise. These occasional words seemed a bit odd and forced because there all isn't that much in dialect or transliterated accent, probably not as much as there would be if it were a novel originally written about working-class Londoners.
I thought that before we pass off this topic I'd mentioned a funny thing that happened a couple of days ago. I learned that one of my online friends actually wrote his masters thesis on Berlin Alexanderplatz as well as a couple of other books of the era. His central idea was to look at Berlin as a character in all three books, as some in this thread have resonated with. I had asked him why the book caught on so, being a relatively difficult work. He said he thought it was partly that it was a good example of German Modernism that was at its height when Doblin wrote, and that it expressed themes of angst, stoicism and struggle that are recognizable German thematic interests. He mentioned that there are two voices of literature that emerged out of the chaos of the Weimar Republic--'the other' and 'the German male'. Presumably, our book is part of that second category. But he said if you wanted a good example of the first, you should read The Artificial Silk Girl by Irmgard Keun. He said it has the added benefit of being one of best translated novels of that time. I hope to check that one out at some point.
He did say that translation is a big problem with Doblin's novel. People struggled with the American gangster imitation with Jolas as we do now with the Cockney attempt. I can see that watching the Fassbinder film might be helpful as you'd get a feel for the actual voice even if you do have to read a translation.
Sorry to double post, but I just read this review from The Nation, which resonated for me. It may have come up before but if so, I missed it.https://www.thenation.com/article/run...
Seana wrote: "I thought that before we pass off this topic I'd mentioned a funny thing that happened a couple of days ago. I learned that one of my online friends actually wrote his masters thesis on Berlin Alex..."Really useful post. Thanks Seana.
No problem about double posting, double post away. That was some useful insight. Thanks Seana.
Seana, , thank you for the post to this article as well as conveying your back and forth with the friend who chose this for a master’s thesis. I can see why a scholar would attack this work as toothsome, like a thousand layer cake albeit perhaps not as elegant or refined. But something to puzzle over , which is frankly why some initial reactions on this forum to the book confounded me. For me it was certainly my most exciting read of this year, even though we are still early on in the year. Makes me want to go further into Weimar literature about which I know so little..
Thanks
Thanks, Louise. With something as complex as this work, it's very helpful to get as much outside insight as I can. I didn't even know that this friend had had this much relation with academia as he has, so it was quite a surprise.
For anyone who wants to explore the Weimar Republic culture, now or later, here are some books my friend used in his research and recommends:Weimar Culture- The Outsider as Insider by Peter Gay
Weimar Germany- Promise and Tragedy- Eric D Weitz
Before the Deluge- Berlin in the 1920's- Otto Friedrich
The Ghosts of Berlin- Confronting German History in the Urban Landscape- Brian Ladd (this one isn't specifically about Weimar but it is fascinating if you ever wish to visit Berlin as it talks about how do you "exorcise" buildings that were built by the Nazi's and refashion them for modern use and if you are actually able to do it.)
I really enjoyed that review. Thanks, Seana.
Glad you enjoyed it, Merilee. What I liked about it was that it took some things that I had noticed to at least some degree and pointed out the symbolism that I hadn't quite grasped.
Thanks for this information, Seana. I find the Weimar Republic fascinating, so was disappointed that Berlin Alexanderplatz didn’t work for me, I will be checking into the books your friend suggested.I also must say this is exactly the kind of book discussion I enjoy, not simply what we liked or disliked, but the sharing of background information that enriches the reading and suggesting other books and resources.
Yes, with a month time frame, we have a chance to delve in a bit more than I usually do with my offline once a month book group. if things occur to us, we can still bring them up.
And these threads stay open, so anyone who reads the book at a later date is more than welcome to come here and chime in at any time.
Why does this book continue to appeal to modern-day readers? What timeless aspects of the story do you relate to?
Not to be cynical, but I'm guessing the Fassbinder film has a lot to do with it..
As the discussion is winding down, what did you like or dislike about the book that hasn't been discussed already? Were you glad you read this book? Would you recommend it to a friend?
I often find the effect of it is like a series of conversations, or bits of conversations, overheard in buses or pubs. (Even if most of them happen to feature the same person.)
Randolph, I think I am in your camp on that. As a matter of fact, I am in a Finnegans Wake group which I've been attending for years and I have to say that I keep going because Joyce is brilliant, but I still haven't entirely warmed to him. I am more inclined to dislike a book because it is poorly written, but even there I have a pretty high tolerance.
I don’t have to enjoy reading a book to say that I “liked” it either, I imagine that is true of anyone willing to read books like this. My not liking it wasn’t because it wasn’t enjoyable to read (I just read Belladonna, which was dense and heavy and very depressing and I couldn’t wait to finish it, but it was well worth the effort,) my reason for not pushing forward with this was that I couldn’t get a hook into it. I realized from all of your remarks here that it was supposed to be moments and encounters in a busy Berlin, but that style of writing didn’t sound appealing to me. Had it been a 250 page book I probably would have pushed museums to read it. I have a very low tolerance for poorly written books. I care about plot and setting far less than I care about syntax, diction, style, and character development if characters figure in the book.
I'm not sure I liked this book, but I'm glad I read it. Franz wasn't a character I could warm to, and found it hard to sympathize with him. I didn't care enough about him to enjoy his story. But I thought Berlin itself fascinating, and I really appreciate the articles about the book that other members posted.
Thanks for this list, Seana. I think I have another book by Peter Gay. Must look.
NYRB Classics
Books mentioned in this topic
Belladonna (other topics)Bright Magic: Stories (other topics)
Berlin Stories (other topics)
Belladonna (other topics)
The Storyteller Essays (other topics)
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I just began the new translation and decided to get the original German on Kindle (only $15). My German is no longer so fluent, but I might dip in and out of the original, especially since there’s the free downloadable dictionary.