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Berlin Alexanderplatz, by Alfred Doblin
I tried a few times, but couldn’t get into the book either. That was a long time ago though.
[migrated to the waterhole]
Let’s meet at the Book Bar and talk more about books as gifts!
The Times Literary Supplement has Berlin Alexanderplatz listed as one of their "Best Books of the Year 2018". Stephen Brown says: Alfred Döblin’s Berlin Alexanderplatz (Michael Hofmann’s translation) puts you in the mean streets and meaner lives – and minds – of its 1920s underclass. There’s nothing sympathetic about what the characters do, and yet they’re so damned human, it’s impossible not to share in what they feel.
https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/pu...
Am enjoying scrolling through these comments. At page 133 I’m delighted with the nonstop energy of this always in motion city. Am reading this book on my morning commute to Philly—which somehow seems a fitting way to read it, surrounded by humanity, subway stops and noise. I buy the comparison with Joyce, same sense of a major life force coursing through the pages.Janet
I haven’t picked it up since the end of last week. I’m torn because it has just glowing reviews, but I just am not feeling this book at all.
WndyJW wrote: "I haven’t picked it up since the end of last week. I’m torn because it has just glowing reviews, but I just am not feeling this book at all."I can sympathise WndyJW. I started reading it a couple of days ago but I'm contemplating abandoning it. I like some modernist writing but this is just dull.
I feel very bad abandoning our first group read as a reenergized group, but I can’t read a book that I’m not enjoying. I just wish I could see what everyone sees. I have only seen 5 star reviews of this book.
Something else strikes me in reading this novel. With the exception of the Franz Biberkopf story line and just thinking about all of Doblin’s writing about the city of Berlin— that part of the novel puts me in mind of Dziga Vertov’s hugely innovative film, Man With a Movie Camera, which came out in 1929. True, Vertov’s was a Soviet film, but it depicted ordinary people going about their business and it really “celebrates the modernity of the city, with its vast buildings, dense population, and bustling industries.” (From summary on the web). And see: https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/gr...It’s a true wonder of a film, and there were similar films made at the time celebrating other major cities including Berlin. So... it was something in the air, or, if you want to be fancy, part of the zeitgeist.
So who is reading this book and how are you making out? I am on page 140 and I am really struggling with the writing style.
I also have two doorstoppers started last year, so if I do get to Berlin Alexanderplatz it probably won't be before Feb.
I'm on page 23, so just started. I will continue and stick it out. Reminds me a bit of Herman Hesse. Sometimes it's good to read something difficult after all the fluff out there!
I read the afterwords and am somewhere in the middle of Ch. 3, I’m starting to see the resemblance to Joyce — especially the orality of it, and the amalgamation of various lingustic tics, styles, scientific language, medical language, body parts, newspaper language, random shouts and noises in the street, slogans, chants, songs, mini tales, myths, biblical reference, etc etc. There’s something encyclopedic about it (but about words, sounds, and orality, not factoids.)I still have no sympathy for Franz, but I’m liking what the book is trying to do. I just wish I could read it in German, I bet the sound, the rhymes, the tones, the rhythms etc are extremely important (pleasurable even), it wouldn’t surprise me if there were “hidden codes” or text patterns that would be lost in translation. (Or I’m reading too much Joyce into it.)
I'm midway through the 2nd chapter, and I'm thinking the following: Doblin wants me to hear the traffic noise, see the neon lights, and feel the grit and grime that is Berlin. He's immersing me in the ecosystem that is home for Franz, wage earners, petty crooks, and the poor -- he wants me to feel the city pulsate as it drags people down, and I think Doblin is succeeding in his task, at least with me. There is nothing pleasurable about this urban behemoth, and perhaps that's Doblin's point. It's depressing, despairing, ghastly, and foul, and Doblin wants us to experience the gruesomeness first hand. There is nothing to enjoy here, and perhaps no one to like. The city appears to be the true antagonist.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "I'm midway through the 2nd chapter, and I'm thinking the following: Doblin wants me to hear the traffic noise, see the neon lights, and feel the grit and grime that is Berlin. ..."Excellent point Xan. I certainly feel the chaos as I am reading along.
Louise wrote: "So who is reading this book and how are you making out? I am on page 140 and I am really struggling with the writing style."I've got to the end of the second book which is page 104 in my edition—BTW I'm cheating by reading the older Jolas translation but it's a book I've had on my TBR list for a few years.
I like the experimentation, in principle, it's just that I don't think Döblin does it very well as there's just not enough substance, along with all the tricks, to keep me interested. No doubt, I'm missing all sorts of things but I have read, and loved other experimental authors of the period. I find that this sort of style either works or bombs—and it's very subjective. I wish I liked it more than I do.
I reached page 101, and I am calling it quits. Franz and his friends are just too unpleasant, particularly in their treatment of women, and I am not finding enough in the text that I value to counterbalance the unpleasantness.Abandoning a novel midway is pretty rare for me, so I am hopeful that the next selection will be something that I can find more value in.
I understand how you feel Jeff. I wanted to quit at page 140 but kept going anyway, and now I think it has gotten a bit better, enough for me to continue on at any rate.
Mod
Agree, it is chaotic. And it’s set in spring of 1929, and we all know what happened in October 1929. Hold on for more chaos!
By the way, and am hoping this is not totally off topic, but is anyone watching Babylon Berlin on Netflix? Same time period and lots of exploration of Berlin’s underclass and criminal class of the day— but with direction by Tom Tykwer (Run, Lola Run). Gives you a good idea of what was going on at the time... Ok sorry, I’ll stay on topic😁
Janet wrote: "By the way, and am hoping this is not totally off topic, but is anyone watching Babylon Berlin on Netflix? Same time period and lots of exploration of Berlin’s underclass and criminal class of the ..."You're not off topic Janet. It's a valid comparison. Berlin is certainly relevant to this book.
I watched a few minutes of the subtitled film so I see what the book is supposed to be, but I second Trevor, forcing yourself through a slog is unnecessary and no fun. Maybe if it was a 150 pgs I would try, but this is not for me.
I have made it to page 200. It is getting better.
... I didn’t vote (was not a member at the time), but thought the Ulysses comparison was a feature, not a bug 😬
With all due respect, I’m a huge Ulysses/ Joyce ( my touchstone) fan so I don’t see it as a problem with vetting. The book is captivating so far for me. Let’s see how this work transpires. I love a good story.
Janet wrote: "I love a good story. "We haven’t officially started so I’m trying to avoid mentioning specific scenes or structures in the novel. But I wish I could respond to that with a smart comment about a particular setup in the book. (Which I really really love.)
But you know how, in the Ulysses, there are a ton of misreadings, mistaken identities, misinterpreted gestures etc?
I’m seeing that here too! Do you also love a story about misinterpreting stories?
I do! Let see how our antihero fares...something tells me not so well, but it will be fun to unpack
Janet wrote: "I do! Let see how our antihero fares...something tells me not so well, but it will be fun to unpack"The author also intrudes to tell “dear readers” what’s going to happen! (Reminds me of Tolstoy’s long-winded authorial intrusions in War and Peace, though I also wonder if it’s the author intruding? Could it be the city itself coming to life and telling us what “it” has in store for someone like Franz? That would be kind of creepy).
I think you’re right, I suspect our antihero has a hard future ahead! (I’m close to finishing ch. 4). But as you said, it’s 1929 Berlin, it’s hard on everyone.
Jonathan wrote: "WndyJW wrote: "I haven’t picked it up since the end of last week. I’m torn because it has just glowing reviews, but I just am not feeling this book at all."I can sympathise WndyJW. I started read..."
Oh no! I've been looking forward to this one....
I don't think it's a book for "everybody" but clearly many people love it. Just look at the reviews. I am one of those who struggled at first because it was not what I expected and it isn't a writing style I particularly like but with the help of this group I understand it better now and I think I know what the author is trying to do and am able to enjoy the story more.I say to anyone who hasn't started it yet, don't be put off by some of our comments. Give it a try for yourself.
Guy wrote: "Well I have a thing for Fassbinder...."Guy, I agree with Louise in that you shouldn't be put off by our comments if you already want to read it. Like Louise, I'm starting to get into it a bit more—I'm on page 150. As it's more like a collage than a regular novel it is quite patchy; some parts are better than others.
I'm not out off mainly because of the Fassbinder thing. I'll get to it.
I have to say that the book did start to turn around for me at around page 140-150. I'm on page 200 now and there is no question of quitting. I want to know where this is going to go. And when I'm done I've got the Bassfinder mini-series to watch :-)
If Fassbinder saw something in it, then it's good enough for me. Sometimes just knowing that you should stick with a book helps.
Mod
He was really something. Tragic early death ....
Yes, please don’t let my feelings towards the book influence anyone. Since this book is so highly regarded it’s simply a matter of taste or timing for different readers.
The first five pages of Book Five is a tour round the square. It's one of my favourite parts of the book so far.
Not sure how the discussion will be conducted when we begin discussing it in February but here is a question I have: all of us readers had a hard time making our way into the novel. Why? What was the author doing that that made it so? (Because surely that was intentional)
I found the writing style so confusing at first. I never knew who was talking. I had to often go back and re-read to figure out what was going on. It was annoying. I don't know if the style changes later on in the book, or I simply got used to it but I actually find the writing poetic now.
← prevaricating so far!Like our mutual friend, Franz.
I’m beginning to feel sorry for our Franz...
I read Book Five today and really enjoyed it. The extra-digressions-vignettes (or whatever we're calling them) now seem to be relevant to the main text whereas at the beginning they seemed (to me) to be too random. It helps that there is more of a plot now to hang the extra stuff on to. It felt too confused at the beginning.
Reading this book is like watching a train wreck. You want to look away but you can't. You don't enjoy the experience but you feel compelled to continue what you are doing.
I must confess I’m thoroughly enjoying this story and can now understand how Fassbinder read it all in one big gulp. Despite the difficulty I had in following the first few chapters, the only thing stopping me at this point is that I have to go off to work. I normally take notes while reading a book for discussion but am just enjoying this too much to stop to do that. Fortunately Doblin’s table of contents are detailed enough for way finding.
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Quite true, and I have read many fine novels with protagonists that I did not like (in the way that I like a person in real life). However, I liked them as protagonists. They served the story that the author was trying to tell. For instance, I did not like Bill Lee (as a person), in Naked Lunch, but I liked him as a protagonist. He served the story that Burroughs wanted to tell.
On the other hand, on rare occasions I encounter a protagonist who is so central to the story, and who I find so unpleasant, that I cannot finish the book, even if the protagonist is serving the story. The most upsetting example of this for me is Confederacy of Dunces, since this book was given to me as a gift from a dear friend from New Orleans who loves it. I want to love it for her sake, but I have made a couple of attempts in the 20 years it has been in my possession, and so far, no go.
Slightly more common, though, is an unpleasant protagonist who is not necessary for the story. When I encounter that, I feel no remorse about not finishing the book, if I find nothing else to commend it to me.
No spoilers, but there are a couple of things about Franz that are revealed early on which I find particularly repellent. I have trouble seeing how they will be necessary for the story, but I will wait and see. Even if Franz is not redeemed (in my eyes) as a protagonist, I may still end up liking the book, as it seems like it has the potential to be a rich and interesting portrait of a time and place.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and my mind open.