WE ARE OPEN -WEEK SIX - MILITARY SERIES: HANNS AND RUDOLF - June 16th - June 22nd - Chapter(s) Ten and Eleven: 10: Hanns, Normandy, France, 1945 and 11: Rudolf, Berlin, Germany, 1943 - (148 - 169) - No Spoilers, Please

[Teri]

Agreed and unfortunately American and British born Germans/Japanese had to deal with this attitude on their home fronts. It was definitely a period of paranoia for everyone around the world.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I know - who do you trust?

[Vincent]

Teri wrote: "Agreed and unfortunately American and British born Germans/Japanese had to deal with this attitude on their home fronts. It was definitely a period of paranoia for everyone around the world."

I agree but then I ask was it "reasonable" paranoia?

Unfortunately it seems to me that in the States in WW II it was mostly emotional paranoia but sometimes you must allow for reasonable paranoia ..... umm... reasonable prudence.... in retrospect it is hard to judge

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Very hard Vince - because "emotionalism" overcomes logic - and many I am sure had a connection to somebody in Europe who was being oppressed, imprisoned, bombed, or worse.

[Sherry]

Bentley wrote: "Very hard Vince - because "emotionalism" overcomes logic - and many I am sure had a connection to somebody in Europe who was being oppressed, imprisoned, bombed, or worse."

Sometimes we deny our instincts for fear of seeming irrational, when in fact there is something very real and very dangerous going on.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Another good point Sherry.

[Sherry]

Bentley wrote: "Another good point Sherry."

Thanks!
Sherry

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Rudolf's last name for our purposes in this discussion should be spelled Hoess. We were spelling it a variety of ways. But Hoess it is.

[[deleted user]]

CH 10
I often ponder why action wasn't taken sooner. Could it be denial? Could the comprehension of what was taking place be so implausible more proof was required before acting? Political strategy? I have no idea and it is a complete shame action wasn't initiated sooner to prevent the loss of lives. I hope with all my heart the very best decision was made at that very moment in time. It's easy to dissect the past and see what we would have done differently. Not exactly fair to toss the would have, should have card. A devastating and horrific blemish in history, I hope it is never repeated. I will always have hope.

I am happy the War Crimes Commission was established. Bringing evil to justice is necessary. Their actions were deplorable and they needed to be an example world wide. The survivors and/or living families should have decided the criminals fate. I'm not a proponent of the death penalty but wasting and food, basic necessities seems too easy and a waste for these killers.

Hanns hasn't conducted himself in a negative manner. He seems focused and has an agenda. Appears to have leadership ability and is thorough task wise. A proficient soldier looking forward to the end of the madness. Hoping to have a place called home when all is said and done.

CH 11
I feel Morgan was reconstructing events to fit his needs. Maybe he was a plant to absolve the higher echelon of wrong doings. I find it implausible Morgan was offended by his discovery, he must have known what was happening. Seems far fetched - his position to investigate and his own findings shocking. Another criminal looking for a way out of his culpability.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

For the military being interviewed at the time of the liberation of Belsen in Memories of the Camps - they stated that they thought reports were inflated or distorted and that these things could not possibly be happening to people - but when they actually liberated Belsen as an example - they stated that the reality was 1000 times worse than the stories that they did not believe. And of course there was the war effort going on so everybody had their hands full.

I understand how you feel Melinda and a lot of folks feel the way you do. My feelings are that maybe the world should not stoop to the same level as these thugs. Others feel that in this special circumstance that the world was better off without these people. There are differences of opinion on capital punishment, killing, hanging, execution and revenge. What the Nazis did in - by the way - about 300 of these camps spread all over Germany and beyond is abominable and how normal folks did not know what was going on is the question to this very day.

At this point in time I agree with you about Hanns.

I cannot agree more about Morgen. Another scoundrel who knew the legal system and played it well. I do think that he had courage and stood up to the Allies interrogation when they were trying to get information against others which was not true according to Morgen. And he did bring a lot of folks to justice for corruption, etc. - but he knew about the killings.

[Katy]

Thanks for the comment, Melinda. Certainly a time of extraordinary brutality on the part of the Nazi's. I can understand how people could just not believe the early reports -- but the afterwards with videos and photos -- something had to be done.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

True Kathy - it is the "what" that seems to trouble folks to this day. Along with how could decent folks allow these things to occur?

And remember there were over 17 Million votes who voted legitimately for the Nationalist Socialist Party - although let us say that these votes did not necessarily mean that they knew what the Nazis had planned for their future.

But having said that - the recent elections have to give one a chill.

Here is a news account:

A German political party that has been compared to the Nazis will enter the European Parliament for the first time, in an election marked by a surge in right-wing parties that are either skeptical or hostile to the EU.

The NPD has been campaigning on a platform of stopping immigration and been called racist and anti-semitic.

They have fought under the banner of slogans like "Money for granny instead of Sinti and Roma" and "the boat is full", given interviews insisting Europe is "a continent of white people" and, as pictured below, have marched with banners proclaiming the Nazi ideology of "National Socialism".

The victory for the NPD has been put down to a recent reform to German electoral law - ending a ban on parties that fail to get 3% of the popular vote taking seats in the European Parliament. The party won around 1% of the vote.

"We say Europe is the continent of white people and it should remain that way," Udo Voigt, the party's lead candidate, told Reuters.

"We want to make sure that even in 50 years' time an Italian, a Frenchman, an Englishman, an Irishman and a German are still recognizable as European and cannot be mistaken for Ghanaians or Chinese."

In France, Marine Le Pen's anti-immigration Front National defeated the Socialist Party with an extraordinary quarter of the vote.

Outgoing Tory MEP Martin Callanan described the party as "openly racist" and described the result as "black day for Europe".

(Source: http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/ne...)

More:
France - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05...
http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2...
http://www.jta.org/2014/05/26/news-op...
UK - http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/wor...

==================

And we ask how this occurs and hope that these kinds of things will never happen again.

Note: Placed in Glossary

[Vincent]

Melinda wrote: "CH 10
I often ponder why action wasn't taken sooner. Could it be denial? Could the comprehension of what was taking place be so implausible more proof was required before acting? Political strategy..."

Were the actions of the War Crimes commission deplorable in relation to the times in a place where peoples lives, families, fortunes had been decimated?

Justice is an interesting statement - bringing them to justice is not as important in my mind than denying them the ability to do it again - one can view it as punishment and maybe it is at the same time.

Just my thoughts

[Jill]

Interesting thoughts, Vince. There may be several words we could use to describe the War Crimes commission/trials: justice is the one most people think about when Nuremberg is mentioned. But don't you think that revenge could also have played a part?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I am afraid Jill that the coin has two sides - on the head - everybody talks about Justice and on the backside - there was revenge.

Hate is what fuels these kinds of situations -one of the German guards and there were more than one were totally unrepentant even now about their part in taking target practice on Jews in the concentration camps and the interviewer in the documentary asked one of them (in the Auschwitz documentary) - what was he thinking of when he was asked to just gun them down - and he said that he was basically telling himself to "aim carefully"!!!

It was shocking to hear this and he said that he remembered how horrible the Jews had treated him and his family growing up on a farm - I guess the Jewish people owned it and the treatment was despicable so he hated them ever since - he says that is probably unjust but he still has the same feeling. The documentary interviewing guards so many years after the fact - really highlights the hate that was festered and was at the core of why some of these folks thought it was OK to mass murder people.

It is that leap that one cannot fathom but in Nazi Germany the SS were given carte blanch to wield power, revenge and vent their hatred by mass extermination and this was fanned by Hitler and his chronies.

It is very sad but you see it with Al Qaeda and any of these terrorist groups - blind hate is fostered and fanned and they are given carte blanch to kill innocent people without a care in the world. They are just following orders blindly too.

Hanns and Rudolf is chilling from the standpoint that these folks were not crazy at all but at their core still mass murderers and they thought it was OK. They were not crazies, nor psychopaths and they still had the capacity to love and be loved but as quickly as a toss of a coin they were capable of genocide.

You can see that the guards stopped killing once the war was over and when they could suffer retribution for acting out their inner hate so too I think could have Goering or Hoess. So revenge by the War Crimes Tribunal did not rid the country of hate for minorities - but they did get rid of some of the high profile Nazis permanently so that they could not lead again. And that is the question to ponder - does man have the right to kill because the other person killed. It is a tough call in this situation and I believe they were justly worried that a German court would give these folks a get out of jail free card as soon as the hostilities, war and occupation of Germany were over - so they made sure that this did not happen. Rightly or wrongly depending upon your perspective.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

This is an interesting article which plays into our conversation which I will place here and in the glossary:

Ebay blocked this but the owners hope to get 5 to 7 million dollars and a previous car that was once Goering's went for $2M - you have to ask yourself who would pay this kind of money and why would they want to? You would think and hope that this kind of sale would tank and the item would be worthless because of the kind of suffering that this man caused. But regretfully - obviously not.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/10206947...

Discussion Topic: - what are your thoughts about this situation in light of what we learned about this man and his compatriots in the book and why does something owned by a man who was absolutely detestable have any value at all?

[Bryan]

Personally, I would never own a car used by the Nazi regime.

I understand the desire to restore the car. For a moment let's consider that it is a classic car and the serious hobbyist see only the beautiful car that needs to be restored.

But...back to the owner...maybe it is the fame. Goering was famous. Does not put a moral judgement on it, but maybe it is part of the motivation for such a high price.

[Sherry]

Bryan wrote: "Personally, I would never own a car used by the Nazi regime.

I understand the desire to restore the car. For a moment let's consider that it is a classic car and the serious hobbyist see only the..."

If it was just the car with no infamy attached, would it sell for as much?

[Bryan]

It would not, Sherry. I guess you add a famous owner and the price sky-rockets, even if you are famous for bad reasons.

[Jill]

My husband is a serious car hobbyist and he has said that he often wondered what happened to those Mercedes in which Hitler and other Nazi bigwigs rode. But he also added that he wouldn't want one if they were being given away. And Bryan is correct......in this case, it is the history of the car that drove the price to a ridiculous level. This happens all the time.....a Cadillac owned by Elvis went for big bucks but would have been pretty much a 3 point car in an auction. So it doesn't surprise me about the Goering car but frankly, it is pretty disturbing. Are people forgetting the horrors of WWII and Goering's role? Has time mellowed the disgust that most of us feel about it? I certainly hope not.

[Teri]

My opinion is that the car should be destroyed. I'm not surprised that there are some people out there that want to purchase it and be able to say that they own a piece of history, whether it is something good or not. Like others, it would not be something I would want or appreciate in any way. The only other option that might be appropriate (and really, I don't think I'd agree with this either) is to put it in a museum, if there is even one that would want to exhibit it. Not to "show it off" but to perhaps show/inform the public as to what the SS had vs. the victims of the Holocaust.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Bryan wrote: "Personally, I would never own a car used by the Nazi regime.

I understand the desire to restore the car. For a moment let's consider that it is a classic car and the serious hobbyist see only the..."

Bryan, I am not sure the word "famous" is one that I would use - because I think somebody who is famous might have at least some favorable attributes. I do think he is quite infamous. But then again who would want such a car.

Maybe it is not so much because it was Goering's but because it is a classic car - but to tell you the truth - I think it is also because it is Goerings. I would be totally mortified to explain to anybody that I had bought a car for that price or even for a dollar that was owned by a former Nazi - in fact - I was a bit nervous about having this discussion because I so do not want to glorify what the Nazis did by giving them thread space which of course happens when you do this sort of discussion. In the World War II folder as you know we have a thread on Nazis, one on the Holocaust - the Nazis were certainly responsible for the Holocaust - but we did not want to dignify them on the same thread as trying to honor the lives lost in the Holocaust. It was a tough call to even have a thread about them even though we cannot deny that they existed nor can we change history - although we sure wish we could. So we discuss them but not to glorify them in any way. They happened - I wish they hadn't.

So driving around in such a car is as bad as buying Al Capone's Mafia car or one owned by Charles Manson or Osama Bin Laden's car. I believe in all of these cases that not one of these folks or all of these folks combined killed as many folks as Goering was responsible for doing in the concentration camps and during the war.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Sherry wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Personally, I would never own a car used by the Nazi regime.

I understand the desire to restore the car. For a moment let's consider that it is a classic car and the serious hobby is..."


I have to agree with Bryan - and say that I would doubt it.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Jill wrote: "My husband is a serious car hobbyist and he has said that he often wondered what happened to those Mercedes in which Hitler and other Nazi bigwigs rode. But he also added that he wouldn't want one..."

I think that time mellows everything - the generations that remember and fought in the Second World War are very old - many have died and they are the ones who went, who saw and who remembered. Memorial Day and Veterans Day meant something and they still do for many - but for many others - they mean a beach day, a day off, cook outs and an extended weekend or all of the above - but a parade honoring the dead and a trip to the cemetery - local or Arlington - or a day of prayer for the deceased is a distant memory for the current generation. So yes, there is a blurring of memories.

[Vincent]

Jill wrote: "Interesting thoughts, Vince. There may be several words we could use to describe the War Crimes commission/trials: justice is the one most people think about when Nuremberg is mentioned. But don't ..."

Revenge- maybe but most of the war trails to my memory were over the atrocities - not the acts of war such as the bombing of London etc.

And then there was not such great consideration for the Jews or the Romas or many other groups systematically attacked before the public knowledge of the concentration camps

And then the Jews and others had limited direct influence on the trials - they were there and noticed - but not an overwhelming force.

I would believe the trials were a search, albeit hurried along, for justice not for revenge -

There was certainly revenge but I think not very much at the trials.

[Vincent]

Bentley wrote: "This is an interesting article which plays into our conversation which I will place here and in the glossary:

Ebay blocked this but the owners hope to get 5 to 7 million dollars and a previous car..."

So the car would have value to a museum.

Otherwise I would wonder why someone would want it personally and probably would not be able to find a valid ethical answer.

I think to buy this puts a positive spin of some sort on the Nazis. I cannot imagine admitting owning such a vehicle but that is me - but I guess it is free speech.

[Jill]

@Vince:

The charges at the trial were:
*Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
*Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
* War crimes
*Crimes against humanity

There is no doubt that the extermination of the Jews and other "undesirables" was the main focus and for good reason but it was not intended to be the only reason for the trials. That is why I see an undercurrent of revenge, especially from the Russian and possibly from the French judge.

[Vincent]

Jill wrote: "@Vince:

The charges at the trial were:
*Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
*Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other..."

Thanks - yes I understand what you say but only sort of agree

I think that the trials would not have had such import or attention without the holocaust.

I think that for the Russians every avenue was an opportunity for revenge. - so for them yes the trials were revenge but so much of their activity against the Germans was.

For the French I am not so sure for WWII - maybe for WWI - and where do you put the French Vichy in that picture. Wanting revenge to turn away thoughts of their compliance in some areas maybe?

When you say the Russian of the French judge who do you mean - is there a specific judge?

[Jill]

There was only one judge per Allied country with an alternate.....so I just mean the judge(s) from those countries. You are certainly correct that the French were out for revenge after WWI and it showed in the Versailles treaty. But I have this strange idea about the French in WWII......they basically were collaborators in Vichy and shamed their country, or at least in the eyes of many. When people lose and are suddenly vulnerable they tend to strike back at the very ideology they embraced. Although I'm sure the French judge was not from Vichy, he may have sought some revenge for what occurred in Vichy. I have no basis for that, just my opinion.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Vince wrote: "Jill wrote: "Interesting thoughts, Vince. There may be several words we could use to describe the War Crimes commission/trials: justice is the one most people think about when Nuremberg is mentione..."

Thanks Vince - I think it is tough for the victors to sentence to death the losing side. I think we all understand that something needed to be done - but the what is the question. But many, many, many more folks agree with you.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Jill wrote: "There was only one judge per Allied country with an alternate.....so I just mean the judge(s) from those countries. You are certainly correct that the French were out for revenge after WWI and it s..."

Sadly I agree Jill.

[Whitney]

Cary's comment #72 was right on with some of the things I have been thinking about while reading this book. One choice can make such a difference in our own lives or in history. This book for me is a reminder on why it is important to think about how we vote, what we raise our voices about, and what we are staying silent about.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Whitney what an excellent post. It is also something that we should be thinking about here - some could say that it is a sad commentary on America where everybody seems too busy to really think about the way things are and/or should be right in their own back yard. I think in Germany we saw a lot of complacency by those who felt that they could not stop what was going on and they went along. There were many more folks against the Nazis but they came to power because the other folks who were against them were voting differently and were not voting in one block to stop them from winning and alas that began the downward spiral of Germany towards what it became.

[Jill]

There had never been a political figure quite like Hitler in Germany. The military and the upper classes were usually running the country in the inter-war years. Along comes a man who knows how to play to the crowd and people fell under his influence. He had quite an organization to keep his image in front of the common man. It worked.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

It did - but remember there were more against the Nazis than voted for them by quite a bit - unfortunately they all voted for different other parties.

[Jill]

Absolutely but none of the blocs were strong enough to overcome the Nazi power grab. We are used to pretty much a two party government while Germany had quite a large number of parties. It splits the vote and you get Hitler!!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Crazy but that is exactly what happened.

[Bryan]

Yeah, democracy was a new instrument in Germany and it was easy to hijack by the right-wing.

[Katy]

Ahh, yes, Bentley, Jill, & Bryan. That is what happened -- too many different factions. There was unhappiness in Germany and many had their ideas on how to fix things.

[Bryan]

Very true, then you had the after-math of WWI and the Great Depression. Both of these things brought Hitler to power.

[Jerome, Assisting Moderator - Upcoming Books and Releases]

Hitler definitely had charisma, to his advantage and to Europe's sorrow. Plus the Nazis were basically unknown in Germany until the Depression struck.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Good discussion folks.